MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[devildog29]

Correction, I said 3rd, when it should have been second.  And if you read my comments, I did preface it by saying I only saw Martin in the 2 Wesleyan games, and 4 games overall, all against IWU, and he was less then spectacular in all of them.   As Sager said, he did not play very well in any of those games.  Furthermore, again, I was only making the point that it was pretty bold to say flat out Martin "should have been MOP last season."  This implies that obviously Dauksas was the wrong pick last year.  I would agree with you if you would have said Martin COULD have been MOP last year, but you make it sound like absolutely he should have been MOP.  As for the less talent around him, I was assuming what peoples response would have been when I said the MOP will usually go to someone who leads his team to a better finish.  An easy argument is that's not fair to say Martin doesn't get the award just because Dauksas has a better team around him and they finish higher.  Of course Martin has some good teammates.  They wouldn't be playing in one of the premier D3 conferences if they didn't have some talent.  Of course I'm biased, but I think most non-Titans would agree, I'd take Amelianovich, Freeman, and Jones over any other starting three from Elmhurst besides Martin.  Anyways, obviously it was a wrong assumption that this would be the argument against what I said.  Finally, my point is and has always been, the MOP will usually go to the guy with the better team finish, which anyone can make an argument for or against, but that's the way it is.  Bottom line, the 'Jays didn't come through in the clutch and win the conference last year.  IWU did.  The MOP is going to go to the team that wins, so I just don't think someone can say flat out, Martin unequivocally (however you spell that) should have been MOP.

[devildog29]

I may be wrong on this as I'm not going back to check the research, though I'm sure Q or Sager or somebody knows.  When I was at IWU in the mid-90's we took third in the nation in 96 before winning it all in 97.  In 96, even though we did get 3rd in the tournament, I believe we finished second in the conference behind Wheaton that year, and I think, because of that, didn't Wesley Pitts or someone from Wheaton win MOP? or was it shared with Chris Simich that year? 

[True Basketball Fan]

One thing everybody is forgetting to realize is the actual name of the award MOP, which stands for most outstanding player.  Don't get this misconstrued with MVP.  The difference between the two awards is valuable and outstanding.  As much as I side with the Martin-backers, I believe Martin was probably more valuable than outstanding.  Thus, he would win the MVP in my opinion and not the MOP.  However, because one is so valuable, doesn't that make them outstanding as well?  Too confusing........  They're both dang good.  Glad they play in the same league and against eachother, so we all get to enjoy for one more year. 

Wessels was quite impressive last year towards the end.  His assist/to ratio was very good also (for about the last 10-12 games or so).  He also is an extremely pesky defender, he'll give everybody headaches this year, including coaches.

[Titan Q]

A player from the championship team has won the CCIW's M.O.P. award in 14 of the last 16 seasons (Korey Coon shared it twice on non-championship teams):

2005 - Adam Dauksas, IWU (1st)
2004 - Keelan Amelianovich, IWU (1st)
2003 - Joel Kolmodin, Wheaton (4th)
2002 - Antoine McDaniel, Carthage (1st)
2001 - Ryan Knuppel, Elmhurst (1st)
2000 - Jason Wiertel, Carthage (1st) & Korey Coon, IWU (3rd)
1999 - Rob Hamann, Wheaton (1st) & Korey Coon, IWU (2nd)
1998 - Brent Niebrugge, IWU (1st)
1997 - Bryan Crabtree,  IWU (1st)
1996 - Wesley Pitts, Wheaton (1st)
1995 - Chris Simich, IWU (1st)
1994 - John Lipic, IWU (1st)
1993 - Kirk Anderson, Augustana (1st)
1992 - Alonzo Alexander, North Central (6th)
1991 - David Caldwell, IWU (1st)
1990 - Robert Brown, North Central (1st)


You can either make the case that a) it has simply become a "most valuable player" award, or b) that the coaches feel that the player who leads his team to a CCIW title is the "most outstanding player."

Comparing Adam Dauksas and Chris Martin statistically in this discussion really isn't appropriate.  They are totally different players, with different positions (point-guard vs small forward) and different roles.  They are both great players, but they make their impacts in drastically different ways.

Adam's team won the CCIW last season by two full games.  It's hard to argue with the best player from the best team winning the M.O.P., especially when that player is a point-guard who has the ball in hands for what seems to be the entire game.

[mtwilson]

True Basketball Fan,
You would be incorrect in assuming that is my philosophy on defense.  I would be more on the end of running a balanced offense where scorers emerge naturally instead of a player based offense where the ball "goes through them."  As far as defense, its a team concept where allowing anyone to score, reguardless of how many points you yourself can put up, is unacceptable.  I'm not sure if that was intended to be a rhetorical question or you really wanting to know. 

Dansand,
Thanks for the info on Augie's PG.  Playing last year I always remember him having a real significant impact in the game, especially at Augie where he absolutely ate up our PG's and was really the reason we lost.  After that however, I don't remember him getting much pub.  If he's only a Junior this year I think Augustana should have a real solid team making a run for the CCIW.  Great coach, good talent, and hard working looks to be a real good trio for a D3 conference run.

[robberki]

Mike, just embrace your no-defense stance. Heck, I had an agreement where I didn't have to run down to the defensive side of the court and I made all-conference.

[devildog29]

Q, thanks for the actual stats on that, and I see that my memory isn't as bad as I thought.  In 1996, Chris Simich was pretty darn outstanding and led the Titans to the Final 4 and a 3rd place finish.  However, they didn't win the conference, so Pitts got MOP.  I would guess that their stats were probably pretty comparable, though I don't actually have them in front of me.  I'm sure Pitts had more assists, but Simich was playing the 4 or 5 compared to the 1 or 2 for Pitts, so that should be natural.  Point is, I'm a Titan, but I wouldn't say flat out, Simich should have been MOP that season.  Simich was probably as outstanding as anyone in the conference that year, but Wheaton won the conference, so Pitts gets the award.  As has been alluded to, MOP in the CCIW has come to mean the most outstanding player to lead his team to the championship.  Is that right or wrong?  I don't know, there's reasonable arguments for and against that.  But it is what it is.  Adam stepped up and helped the Titans win the title.  Martin disappeared in the most important game of the year.  IMHO, that means Dauksas SHOULD be the MOP over Martin, going by the precedent set for the winner.

[Gregory Sager]

The CCIW has given out the MOP award for 37 years now. In only nine of those 37 years has a member of the championship team failed to win it:

1969 - Jesse Price, Millikin (2nd)
1971 - John Butler, Carthage (3rd)
1974 - Leon Gobczynski, Millikin (2nd)
1981 - Michael Thomas, North Park (2nd)
1986 - Steve Albinger, Carroll (7th)
1988 - Mike Barach, North Park (3rd)
1989 - Jeff Kuehl, Illinois Wesleyan (4th)
1992 - Alonzo Alexander, North Central (5th)
2003 - Joel Kolmodin, Wheaton (4th)

That 76% correlation between winning the conference and winning the MOP is no statistical coincidence. Bob has it right. The CCIW's MOP award has been, for all intents and purposes, an MVP award in the conventional-wisdom sense of the most valuable player being the best player on the first-place team (a la Albert Pujols' inevitably winning the NL MVP award this season over Derrek Lee, in spite of the fact that Lee is having a slightly better year).

Rob, there are some people who would argue that that no-running-back-on-defense agreement was put into place so that you could conserve your energy for all that traveling you did on the offensive end. I'm not one of those people, mind you; I just thought I'd head 'em off at the pass by being the one to point it out. 

[dansand]

Greg,

I figured someone would call me on my Wessels assessment. Notice how I, in lawyer-ly fashion, chose my words carefully, saying "by the end of the year," and "I don't think there was a better point guard in the league, after Dauksas." So, technically, I wasn't saying Wessels was better than Nielson; just that I didn't think Nielson was any better than Wessels by the end of the season. Kinda wishy-washy, I know, but you all know how I like to avoid controversy  . Over the course of the whole season, though, I'd certainly agree Nielson was better. Also, I might as well throw in my two cents worth on Martin/Dauksas. From my Augiecentric perspective, both have played very well at Carver so I can't really make a distinction based on that (although it was actually Gershenzon who just destroyed the Vikes at Carver last year). As much as I love Martin's versatility (I love the kind of guys who are just great basketball players as opposed to "power forwards" or "shooting guards," etc.), I'd have to give the nod to Dauksas. He's definitely the proverbial head of the Titan monster. He almost single-handedly kept them in the game in the second half of Augie's upset win last year.

[Cardsfan4life]

If Wilson is so good then why doesn't he return. Clearly none of the teammates or coaches want him back and he knows after doing nothing in the off season he won't be allowed back.  Also this year he won't be able to be the "star" as he thinks he is because Anthony Simmons is going to be.     

[dansand]

Apparently, he's got a job in Arizona. That'd be an awful tough commute. There is life after hoops.

[Cardsfan4life]

He is in Arizona with a friend until his classes start back up.
So really he doesn't need to be there.

[robberki]

I think I speak for all of the no-defense all-conference members over the years when I say that Cardsfan4life could drop the personal agenda bs that's going on and we'd all be fine with it.

[dansand]

Yes, it's reminiscent of the type of stuff you read on the- gasp-NAIA boards!

[Gregory Sager]

Your Wessels commentary was actually very artfully worded, Dan, although I don't think you're going to win many points with most readers (with the possible exception of David Collinge) by copping to it being worded in "lawyer-ly fashion". 

Gotta agree with Rob and Dan, CF4L. You're just digging yourself a deeper hole with your attempt to smear Mike Wilson.