MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[NCF]

GS and Kiko - give it a rest

You can unbunch your undies now, Dennis ... my argument with Kiko already ran its course.

But you know very well this room's informal rules, specifically the "No Whining" rule: If you complain about a current topic of discussion, you then have to provide a new topic as an alternative. I see that you haven't done that. So let me help you out a bit. Which one of your tried-and-true staples will it be this time: Bashing the NPU head coach? Excoriating soccer as a Communist plot? Talking about old Yankees you remember from your childhood in the Bronx? Favorite meals at Charcoal Delights? Griping about how long it takes to get from Mount Prospect to Chicago? Dueling chins jokes with Joe Hakes? Or will you shock us all and provide us with new material?

The ball's in your court, DP.

Kiko - you know, I know and everyone on D3 chat knows GS always has the last word 

Wrong again, maestro. He had the last word.

I think someone(besides me) needs a vacation!

Sounds like you're paying. In that case, I won't be greedy -- I'll take Saint-Tropez, but if that's a little too over the top I'll settle for Cozumel.

Thanks, NCF!

Well, IF I win the lotto tonight I'll take the whole board on vacation! I've never been to either of those placese so....c'mon big money!!!!!!

[Dennis_Prikkel]

GS and Kiko - give it a rest

You can unbunch your undies now, Dennis ... my argument with Kiko already ran its course.

But you know very well this room's informal rules, specifically the "No Whining" rule: If you complain about a current topic of discussion, you then have to provide a new topic as an alternative. I see that you haven't done that. So let me help you out a bit. Which one of your tried-and-true staples will it be this time: Bashing the NPU head coach? Excoriating soccer as a Communist plot? Talking about old Yankees you remember from your childhood in the Bronx? Favorite meals at Charcoal Delights? Griping about how long it takes to get from Mount Prospect to Chicago? Dueling chins jokes with Joe Hakes? Or will you shock us all and provide us with new material?

The ball's in your court, DP.

Kiko - you know, I know and everyone on D3 chat knows GS always has the last word 

Wrong again, maestro. He had the last word.

I think someone(besides me) needs a vacation!

Sounds like you're paying. In that case, I won't be greedy -- I'll take Saint-Tropez, but if that's a little too over the top I'll settle for Cozumel.

Thanks, NCF!

Well, IF I win the lotto tonight I'll take the whole board on vacation! I've never been to either of those placese so....c'mon big money!!!!!!

I'd love to go to Paris, France.  I've been to Paris, Illinois,  and I'd like to see how different it is.

[NCF]

GS and Kiko - give it a rest

You can unbunch your undies now, Dennis ... my argument with Kiko already ran its course.

But you know very well this room's informal rules, specifically the "No Whining" rule: If you complain about a current topic of discussion, you then have to provide a new topic as an alternative. I see that you haven't done that. So let me help you out a bit. Which one of your tried-and-true staples will it be this time: Bashing the NPU head coach? Excoriating soccer as a Communist plot? Talking about old Yankees you remember from your childhood in the Bronx? Favorite meals at Charcoal Delights? Griping about how long it takes to get from Mount Prospect to Chicago? Dueling chins jokes with Joe Hakes? Or will you shock us all and provide us with new material?

The ball's in your court, DP.

Kiko - you know, I know and everyone on D3 chat knows GS always has the last word 

Wrong again, maestro. He had the last word.

I think someone(besides me) needs a vacation!

Sounds like you're paying. In that case, I won't be greedy -- I'll take Saint-Tropez, but if that's a little too over the top I'll settle for Cozumel.

Thanks, NCF!

Well, IF I win the lotto tonight I'll take the whole board on vacation! I've never been to either of those placese so....c'mon big money!!!!!!

I'd love to go to Paris, France.  I've been to Paris, Illinois,  and I'd like to see how different it is.

I think I'd rather not go to Paris, France.

[Gregory Sager]

GS and Kiko - give it a rest

You can unbunch your undies now, Dennis ... my argument with Kiko already ran its course.

But you know very well this room's informal rules, specifically the "No Whining" rule: If you complain about a current topic of discussion, you then have to provide a new topic as an alternative. I see that you haven't done that. So let me help you out a bit. Which one of your tried-and-true staples will it be this time: Bashing the NPU head coach? Excoriating soccer as a Communist plot? Talking about old Yankees you remember from your childhood in the Bronx? Favorite meals at Charcoal Delights? Griping about how long it takes to get from Mount Prospect to Chicago? Dueling chins jokes with Joe Hakes? Or will you shock us all and provide us with new material?

The ball's in your court, DP.

Kiko - you know, I know and everyone on D3 chat knows GS always has the last word 

Wrong again, maestro. He had the last word.

I think someone(besides me) needs a vacation!

Sounds like you're paying. In that case, I won't be greedy -- I'll take Saint-Tropez, but if that's a little too over the top I'll settle for Cozumel.

Thanks, NCF!

Well, IF I win the lotto tonight I'll take the whole board on vacation! I've never been to either of those placese so....c'mon big money!!!!!!

I'd love to go to Paris, France.  I've been to Paris, Illinois,  and I'd like to see how different it is.

I'd love to go to Paris, Illinois and see the city from the top of the Eiffel Silo.

[diehardfan]

Diehard:1-you are somewhat Sageristic(not a bad thing)

I guess so, but when I respond it's usually shorter than the OP... er... at least I'd like to think so in my head

3-girls have other issues

I was super tempted to go there... for uh, for some reason... but I decided not to 

I think someone(besides me) needs a vacation!

Sounds like you're paying. In that case, I won't be greedy -- I'll take Saint-Tropez, but if that's a little too over the top I'll settle for Cozumel.

Thanks, NCF!

Well, IF I win the lotto tonight I'll take the whole board on vacation! I've never been to either of those placese so....c'mon big money!!!!!!

Psh, my vote would be for New Zealand! If that's too over the top I will settle for going to Iceland or back to Turkey, which is quite lovely in the spring (true story, Tulips are originally from Turkey).

[sac]

I'd love to go to Paris, Illinois and see the city from the top of the Eiffel Silo.

It's more magical when the city light is turned on.


all kidding aside, the Paris courthouse looks like an amazing piece of architecture.

[NCF]

Diehard:1-you are somewhat Sageristic(not a bad thing)

I guess so, but when I respond it's usually shorter than the OP... er... at least I'd like to think so in my head

3-girls have other issues

I was super tempted to go there... for uh, for some reason... but I decided not to 

I think someone(besides me) needs a vacation!

Sounds like you're paying. In that case, I won't be greedy -- I'll take Saint-Tropez, but if that's a little too over the top I'll settle for Cozumel.

Thanks, NCF!

Well, IF I win the lotto tonight I'll take the whole board on vacation! I've never been to either of those placese so....c'mon big money!!!!!!

Psh, my vote would be for New Zealand! If that's too over the top I will settle for going to Iceland or back to Turkey, which is quite lovely in the spring (true story, Tulips are originally from Turkey).

New Zealand would be nice, except for the plane ride. I might get "cabin fever" Hahahaha!

[AndOne]

If Kelly does get the Olivet job, I hope he has better luck than Chad Murray had at Cornell (3-22) this season.

I'm sorry. I thought I remembered Todd Kelly having an interview at NPU last year, and assumed they wouldn't be interviewing anyone but those that were finalists for the job.
If Kelly does get the Olivet job, I hope he has better luck than Chad Murray had at Cornell (3-22) this season.

Olivet was 4-21 this past season.  They only graduate 2 contributors but the next coach will have his work cut out for him to make Olivet more competitive than 4 wins next season.

One thing that Todd Kelly would have in common with Chad Murray, besides being a Todd Raridon acolyte, is the fact that he'd be taking a job where he has some serious inherent obstacles to overcome. As related on the IIAC board, Cornell slashed its budget after hiring Murray, and Olivet is a perennially-marginal program that will most likely find itself bumping up against the MIAA ceiling of the dual Dutch-American powerhouses in Holland and Grand Rapids (to say nothing of the solid Albion and Adrian programs) from now until Judgment Day.

Greg---

Is it still your recollection that Todd Kelly did not interview at NPU, and was not a finalist for the job that eventually went to Coach Howard?

If Todd Kelly gets the Olivet job, my sense is that after 1 year, he will be attracting some recruits that otherwise would have gone to Albion or Adrian. Hope and Calvin will be major obstacles due in large part to their religious philosophy.

[Gregory Sager]

If Kelly does get the Olivet job, I hope he has better luck than Chad Murray had at Cornell (3-22) this season.

I'm sorry. I thought I remembered Todd Kelly having an interview at NPU last year, and assumed they wouldn't be interviewing anyone but those that were finalists for the job.
If Kelly does get the Olivet job, I hope he has better luck than Chad Murray had at Cornell (3-22) this season.

Olivet was 4-21 this past season.  They only graduate 2 contributors but the next coach will have his work cut out for him to make Olivet more competitive than 4 wins next season.

One thing that Todd Kelly would have in common with Chad Murray, besides being a Todd Raridon acolyte, is the fact that he'd be taking a job where he has some serious inherent obstacles to overcome. As related on the IIAC board, Cornell slashed its budget after hiring Murray, and Olivet is a perennially-marginal program that will most likely find itself bumping up against the MIAA ceiling of the dual Dutch-American powerhouses in Holland and Grand Rapids (to say nothing of the solid Albion and Adrian programs) from now until Judgment Day.

Greg---

Is it still your recollection that Todd Kelly did not interview at NPU, and was not a finalist for the job that eventually went to Coach Howard?

I don't know if he got an interview or not, but I know for a fact that he was not a finalist. As I said, he did not meet the job requirements. Even if he had an interview with Jack Surridge, Interview =/= Finalist.

The people who were under serious consideration for the job were: Dylan Howard (assistant coach at Mississippi Valley State, former head coach at Hardin-Simmons), Matt Nadelhoffer (head coach at Eastern), Tom Slyder (head coach at Anderson), and Jim Whitesell (former head coach at Loyola and Elmhurst).

If Todd Kelly gets the Olivet job, my sense is that after 1 year, he will be attracting some recruits that otherwise would have gone to Albion or Adrian. Hope and Calvin will be major obstacles due in large part to their religious philosophy.

That's a bold prediction, Mark, and I think that you're making it without much awareness of Albion and Adrian and their head coaches. Albion's head coach, Jody May, was the second chair under long-time Britons head coach Mike Turner for eleven years prior to becoming the head coach four years ago. He knows the recruiting terrain, he knows the league, and, as the captain of the Ohio Northern team that beat Augustana for the '93 national championship, he knows what it takes to win at this level. Albion has historically been a notch below Hope and Calvin, but it's been a very solid program since the dawn of D3. It's certainly a school with much more basketball cachet and a stronger position than Olivet.

Adrian's head coach, Mark White, is an Adrian alumnus and Detroit native who knows the state's recruiting turf as well. He was a highly-successful high school coach at two Detroit basketball powers in between his stint as a Bulldogs player and becoming the program's head coach three years ago. He's an up-and-comer in the D3 coaching ranks; the Bulldogs were 17-9, 9-5 last season and finished second in the MIAA, ahead of Calvin. All of the people in the MIAA room seem very impressed by him, as well as by how well-prepared his teams are and how hard they play.

I realize that you're just putting in a good word for Todd Kelly here, but I think that you're doing Jody May and Mark White a disservice by dismissing them so offhandedly.

As for the MIAA's historical Big Two, the strength of the Hope and Calvin programs on the recruiting trail in western Michigan goes much deeper than religious philosophy. Those programs have attracted lots of good players over the years that didn't attend high schools affiliated with the Christian Reformed Church. A big part of their appeal is their perennial success, which in each case goes back many, many decades (just as Olivet's struggles on the hardwood go back many, many decades). They also have big, beautiful new gyms; size and resource advantages; better name recognition; and, unlike Olivet, they have large and extraordinarily zealous fan bases, which explains why at least a couple of the Calvin regulars in the MIAA room seem ready to burn down Kevin VandeStreek's house after the team posted a .500 season this year.

(Lots of MIAA readers lurk here, and sac posts here pretty regularly, so methinks you're gonna take some flak for dissing May and White here, Mark.)

[Gregory Sager]

Psh, my vote would be for New Zealand! If that's too over the top I will settle for going to Iceland or back to Turkey, which is quite lovely in the spring (true story, Tulips are originally from Turkey).

April, I triple-dog dare you to post this in the MIAA room.

[kiko]

GS and Kiko - give it a rest

You can unbunch your undies now, Dennis ... my argument with Kiko already ran its course.

But you know very well this room's informal rules, specifically the "No Whining" rule: If you complain about a current topic of discussion, you then have to provide a new topic as an alternative. I see that you haven't done that. So let me help you out a bit. Which one of your tried-and-true staples will it be this time: Bashing the NPU head coach? Excoriating soccer as a Communist plot? Talking about old Yankees you remember from your childhood in the Bronx? Favorite meals at Charcoal Delights? Griping about how long it takes to get from Mount Prospect to Chicago? Dueling chins jokes with Joe Hakes? Or will you shock us all and provide us with new material?

The ball's in your court, DP.

Kiko - you know, I know and everyone on D3 chat knows GS always has the last word 

Wrong again, maestro. He had the last word.

I think someone(besides me) needs a vacation!

Sounds like you're paying. In that case, I won't be greedy -- I'll take Saint-Tropez, but if that's a little too over the top I'll settle for Cozumel.

Thanks, NCF!

Well, IF I win the lotto tonight I'll take the whole board on vacation! I've never been to either of those placese so....c'mon big money!!!!!!

I'd love to go to Paris, France.  I've been to Paris, Illinois,  and I'd like to see how different it is.

Well, we can compromise and settle for Paris, Texas, which actually does have its own version of the Eiffel Tower:

[AndOne]

GS and Kiko - give it a rest

You can unbunch your undies now, Dennis ... my argument with Kiko already ran its course.

But you know very well this room's informal rules, specifically the "No Whining" rule: If you complain about a current topic of discussion, you then have to provide a new topic as an alternative. I see that you haven't done that. So let me help you out a bit. Which one of your tried-and-true staples will it be this time: Bashing the NPU head coach? Excoriating soccer as a Communist plot? Talking about old Yankees you remember from your childhood in the Bronx? Favorite meals at Charcoal Delights? Griping about how long it takes to get from Mount Prospect to Chicago? Dueling chins jokes with Joe Hakes? Or will you shock us all and provide us with new material?

The ball's in your court, DP.

Kiko - you know, I know and everyone on D3 chat knows GS always has the last word 

Wrong again, maestro. He had the last word.

I think someone(besides me) needs a vacation!

Sounds like you're paying. In that case, I won't be greedy -- I'll take Saint-Tropez, but if that's a little too over the top I'll settle for Cozumel.

Thanks, NCF!

Well, IF I win the lotto tonight I'll take the whole board on vacation! I've never been to either of those placese so....c'mon big money!!!!!!

I'd love to go to Paris, France.  I've been to Paris, Illinois,  and I'd like to see how different it is.

I'd love to go to Paris, Illinois and see the city from the top of the Eiffel Silo.

Those of you longing for a view from the top of the Paris (IL) Silo may want to perish the thought.

Paris has long been the scene of some heinous crimes including murders. In July, 1986, the bodies of newlyweds Dyke and Karen Rhoads were found in their Paris bedroom, stabbed a total of over 50 times. The case has been the  object of both political and investigative wrangling and mismanagement. It has never been solved. Two men were convicted a year later, based mainly on the "testimony" of the town drunk and a 2nd alcoholic with a history of mental illness. One man was released after 17 years, 12 on Death Row, and the other after 21 years.

More recently, in Sept, 2011, 53 year old Kathie Payton was stabbed to death in her Paris home. Her 16 year old son has been charged. However, it appears there is strong support for the son as there is a long documented history by DCFS of domestic abuse by Mrs Payton against her son.

Paris not only has a history of unsolved murders and other violent crimes, it is home to the Son's of Silence motorcycle gang and has associations to the Sicilian Mafia and the infamous Pizza Connection case. The Pizza Connection case, was a nine year federal investigation into a 1.6 billion dollar a year money laundering and heroin trafficking conspiracy between the Sicilian Mafia and the New York based Bonanno crime family. Ma and Pa Pizza Parlors throughout small towns in Illinois were utilized to launder money, one of men arrested in the Pizza Connection case owned Joe's Pizza in Paris, Illinois.

Sounds like an interesting place. 

[Gregory Sager]

GS and Kiko - give it a rest

You can unbunch your undies now, Dennis ... my argument with Kiko already ran its course.

But you know very well this room's informal rules, specifically the "No Whining" rule: If you complain about a current topic of discussion, you then have to provide a new topic as an alternative. I see that you haven't done that. So let me help you out a bit. Which one of your tried-and-true staples will it be this time: Bashing the NPU head coach? Excoriating soccer as a Communist plot? Talking about old Yankees you remember from your childhood in the Bronx? Favorite meals at Charcoal Delights? Griping about how long it takes to get from Mount Prospect to Chicago? Dueling chins jokes with Joe Hakes? Or will you shock us all and provide us with new material?

The ball's in your court, DP.

Kiko - you know, I know and everyone on D3 chat knows GS always has the last word 

Wrong again, maestro. He had the last word.

I think someone(besides me) needs a vacation!

Sounds like you're paying. In that case, I won't be greedy -- I'll take Saint-Tropez, but if that's a little too over the top I'll settle for Cozumel.

Thanks, NCF!

Well, IF I win the lotto tonight I'll take the whole board on vacation! I've never been to either of those placese so....c'mon big money!!!!!!

I'd love to go to Paris, France.  I've been to Paris, Illinois,  and I'd like to see how different it is.

I'd love to go to Paris, Illinois and see the city from the top of the Eiffel Silo.

Those of you longing for a view from the top of the Paris (IL) Silo may want to perish the thought.

Paris has long been the scene of some heinous crimes including murders. In July, 1986, the bodies of newlyweds Dyke and Karen Rhoads were found in their Paris bedroom, stabbed a total of over 50 times. The case has been the  object of both political and investigative wrangling and mismanagement. It has never been solved. Two men were convicted a year later, based mainly on the "testimony" of the town drunk and a 2nd alcoholic with a history of mental illness. One man was released after 17 years, 12 on Death Row, and the other after 21 years.

More recently, in Sept, 2011, 53 year old Kathie Payton was stabbed to death in her Paris home. Her 16 year old son has been charged. However, it appears there is strong support for the son as there is a long documented history by DCFS of domestic abuse by Mrs Payton against her son.

Paris not only has a history of unsolved murders and other violent crimes, it is home to the Son's of Silence motorcycle gang and has associations to the Sicilian Mafia and the infamous Pizza Connection case. The Pizza Connection case, was a nine year federal investigation into a 1.6 billion dollar a year money laundering and heroin trafficking conspiracy between the Sicilian Mafia and the New York based Bonanno crime family. Ma and Pa Pizza Parlors throughout small towns in Illinois were utilized to launder money, one of men arrested in the Pizza Connection case owned Joe's Pizza in Paris, Illinois.

Sounds like an interesting place. 

Yikes!

Probably a lot of crystal meth cooking going on down there, too.

Perhaps it'd be better to follow Kiko's lead and go to Paris, TX instead to see that big Tinkertoy thing with the hat on top.

[AndOne]

If Todd Kelly gets the Olivet job, my sense is that after 1 year, he will be attracting some recruits that otherwise would have gone to Albion or Adrian. Hope and Calvin will be major obstacles due in large part to their religious philosophy.

That's a bold prediction, Mark, and I think that you're making it without much awareness of Albion and Adrian and their head coaches. Albion's head coach, Jody May, was the second chair under long-time Britons head coach Mike Turner for eleven years prior to becoming the head coach four years ago. He knows the recruiting terrain, he knows the league, and, as the captain of the Ohio Northern team that beat Augustana for the '93 national championship, he knows what it takes to win at this level. Albion has historically been a notch below Hope and Calvin, but it's been a very solid program since the dawn of D3. It's certainly a school with much more basketball cachet and a stronger position than Olivet.

Adrian's head coach, Mark White, is an Adrian alumnus and Detroit native who knows the state's recruiting turf as well. He was a highly-successful high school coach at two Detroit basketball powers in between his stint as a Bulldogs player and becoming the program's head coach three years ago. He's an up-and-comer in the D3 coaching ranks; the Bulldogs were 17-9, 9-5 last season and finished second in the MIAA, ahead of Calvin. All of the people in the MIAA room seem very impressed by him, as well as by how well-prepared his teams are and how hard they play.

I realize that you're just putting in a good word for Todd Kelly here, but I think that you're doing Jody May and Mark White a disservice by dismissing them so offhandedly.

As for the MIAA's historical Big Two, the strength of the Hope and Calvin programs on the recruiting trail in western Michigan goes much deeper than religious philosophy. Those programs have attracted lots of good players over the years that didn't attend high schools affiliated with the Christian Reformed Church. A big part of their appeal is their perennial success, which in each case goes back many, many decades (just as Olivet's struggles on the hardwood go back many, many decades). They also have big, beautiful new gyms; size and resource advantages; better name recognition; and, unlike Olivet, they have large and extraordinarily zealous fan bases, which explains why at least a couple of the Calvin regulars in the MIAA room seem ready to burn down Kevin VandeStreek's house after the team posted a .500 season this year.

(Lots of MIAA readers lurk here, and sac posts here pretty regularly, so methinks you're gonna take some flak for dissing May and White here, Mark.)

Well, my intent was certainly not to "diss" anyone. I have met Coach May a couple of times and, in fact, just recently talked to him at Wooster. I know he is a good guy and a good coach. And, I was not just putting in a good word for Todd, but rather basing my thinking on personally closely observing Todd's work over the last 3 years. 

[Gregory Sager]

Todd's a good recruiter, no doubt about it. The evidence has been there for everyone to see.

But recruiting in a different and unfamiliar state, against established programs and coaches who know the recruiting terrain and the local high-school coaches like the backs of their hands, is a whole 'nother thing.