MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[devildog29]

I guess you can't win for trying.  I attempt to make nice and give Martin some credit for being an excellent player, and yet I still get knocked down in karma points.  I actually was sincere when I said Martin will be MOP if Elmhurst wins the title this year.  This goes along with my original point that the MOP will go to somebody on the championship team. 

[Pat Coleman]

Whatever a columnist claims (and I would like you to show me what you think you've read), the AL cities vote for AL awards and the NL cities for NL awards. That's why there are currently 32 first-place votes for NL awards and 28 for AL awards.

[David Collinge]

The debate between Pujols and Lee for NL MVP is interesting, and proponents of both can make good arguments.  I'm sorry to point out, however, that the winner will probably be Andruw Jones.

I'm reminded of the argument in Diner between Eddie and Shrevie about whether it is better to listen to Sinatra or Mathis when making out.  When Boogie arrives and is invited to settle the argument, he does so in a single word: "Presley."

[Gregory Sager]

I don't think that Jones is going to win the MVP, although he is certainly a contender. Although he trails Lee and Pujols badly in every percentage stat, his big lead in two counting stats that are traditionally important (home runs and RBIs) gives him a shot at it. But if he were to win it over Lee it'd be yet one more example of a player from a titleist beating a player from an also-ran. Jones would simply be a substitute for Pujols in that regard. It'd be an especially acute example of it in his case, because a lot of people would be commenting about how Jones held his team together with his bat and carried them to the NL East title in a season in which his team was plagued by injuries.

[Titan Q]

Street & Smith's has IWU #1...

(Division III preview by Chuck Mistovich, Basketball Times)

1. Illinois Wesleyan
2. Mississippi College
3. UW-Oshkosh
4. York
5. Virginia Wesleyan
6. Ursinus
7. Amherst
8. Ramapo
9. Wittenberg
10. Wilkes


Illinois Wesleyan

Coach Scott Trost's Titans are loaded.  The top eight scorers return on this senior-laden team that was 21-5 last year, and they are looking every bit as good as the Wesleyan team that won the NCAA Division III Tournament in 1997.  All-America candidates are 6-6 Keelan Amelianovich (17.9 ppg, 4.8 rpg) and 6-3 Adam Dauksas (15.1 ppg, 5.6 apg).  Wesleyan also features 6-7 Zach Freeman (14.2 ppg, 6.8 rpg) and three 6-6 inside men who make the Titans look more like a Division II team than Division III.  These seniors have reached the NCAA playoffs three straight years with a combined 64-18 record.


Street & Smith's Preseason All-America Team:

First

Keelan Amelianovich, Illinois Wesleyan
Adam Dauksas, Illinois Wesleyan
Tyler Rhoten, Trinity (Conn)
Justin Wansley, Randolph-Macon
Tyler Winford, Mississippi

Second

Chris Braier, Lawrence
Sekani Francis, Lehman
Cedric Isom, East Texas Baptist
Kyle Myrick, Lincoln (Pa)
Daniel Russ, Wittenberg


Chris Martin is listed as one of the 32 "Honorable Mention" All-Americans.


(They have the Illini #21 in Division I with Dee Brown a First Team All-American for any curious U of I fans.)

[b_holmgren]

so.... the Titans look like they may field a decent team this year 

[emeritusprof]

Pat --

I don't keep back issues of the StarTrib, but please don't tell me that something was what I might "think I read."  I know what I read.  I know what the amply named La Velle wrote. 

Sager --

The point you seemed to have missed was my contention that Lee is in an extraordinary year, while Pujols is simply doing what Pujols has done since he won Rookie of the Year.

Peruse your library of statistics and you'll find Pujols in the company of only two others on stats for the first four years in the majors, and those other fellows weren't so bad -- namely, Joe Dimaggio and Ted Williams.

Lee has drawn more attention--altho it doesn't hurt to get the exposure nationally that WGN provides.  Same with Jones, he is off the charts for his "usual" stats, and he is on the tube via TBS.

Pujols goes quietly on at levels even All-Star starters only wish they could attain.

[David Collinge]

Now I'm confused.  Clayton, are you suggesting that Pujols should be the MVP because of his sustained excellence?  Or because he deserves it more than the other two based on this season's performance alone?  Or that Lee should be the MVP based on his extraordinary year? 

I think Jones will win, because that's what I have read.  His season has not been as spectacular as Lee's or Pujols' (or Willis', or Clemens', or Carpenter's), but it seems that the media (i.e., voters) give him a great share of credit for the Braves' brilliant season.  Pujols is handicapped by the other great players on the Cardinals (although injuries to Rolen and Walker seem to be ignored in this analysis), and Lee is handicapped by the Cubs' mediocre performance (more or less Sager's point).  This argument is that Pujols (or Lee) may be the MOP, but Jones is the MVP.

I don't buy it; I'd probably vote for Pujols, but give Willis a very long look.  But, like LaVelle E. Neal III, I haven't got a vote.

[Gregory Sager]

Thing is, Clayton, your point is irrelevant to the discussion at hand, which is why I couldn't follow it in your earlier post. The MVP award is based upon what a player does that season. What he has achieved over his career, or over a stretch of that career, isn't germane to the award.

BTW, David, great Diner quote. That's one of my all-time favorite movies.

[David Collinge]

Career performance shouldn't be germane to the award, but I suspect that some voters can't put it out of their minds when voting.  And it cuts both ways; on the one hand, someone will vote for Pujols because his first 4 years have been so great (and no trophies to show for it; I think Clayton is in this camp), and others will vote for Jones or Lee because their performance this year has been so far above their usual levels. 

No arguments in the AL, though; the MVP clearly is Travis Hafner. 

Greg, you probably like Diner because you like to be asked what's on the flip side. 

[Gregory Sager]

Yeah, I ought to have said that career performance shouldn't be germane, since it's a season award rather than a career award. While there may be a small minority of voters who disregard that and let career performance seep into their deliberations, I agree with you that there'll also be a small minority who will counterbalance them.

Either way, career performance isn't a legitimate basis upon which one can argue that a player ought to win the MVP, which is the point that I was making to Clayton.

Re: Diner, I plead guilty as charged. Both the Colts quiz that Eddie forces his fiancee to take, and obsessive music fan Shrevie's tirade at Beth because she put his records back in the wrong order after playing them, hit close to home in an amusing way. Especially the Shrevie scene; I've gotten into arguments with fellow music collectors about whether J. Geils Band albums should be filed under 'J' or 'G'.

[David Collinge]

When it comes to J. Geils Band, I'd probably play the role of Beth and put it back in the wrong section.  As if you couldn't already tell that from my new footer.

My ex-wife really, really hated Diner.  She thought it was demeaning to women.  Notice I said ex-wife.  As for me, well, give me the whole left side of the menu! 

[emeritusprof]

Let me put it this way -- Pujols is the Henry Fonda (among others) of baseball.  He's always outstanding, and valuable.

Fonda was finally given an Oscar when on his death bed, and for a solid but not superlative performance.

Similarly, Nicholson has been far better in many films than in his early CooCoo role.  But, he's expected to be superb.

Once more, I think the voters will go with Lee because he's had a break-away season, an exception to his good, but not MVP performances.  Pujols has turned in three MVP years (yes, one was his rookie year) and is acknowledged MVP by his peers (according to player polls) but not the voters.

If not Lee, the same things apply to Jones.  He has hit as well (batting ave.), but he's gone wild with big bat stats--homers and rbi.

[Gregory Sager]

It's a funny thing about Diner, David. It's one of the all-time-great guy movies, because it not only depicts male bonding rituals to a T, it also does a great warts-and-all job of portraying male ideosyncracies that range from boyish sentimentality to lunatic obsession with sports to perverted sexual humor. And it seems to provoke the same sort of aversion in females that, say, a chick flick such as Message In A Bottle or Steel Magnolias provokes in men.

On more than one occasion I've sat and listened to a woman, or women, grouse about how she or they can't understand men no matter how hard they try. I always retort that men are by far the easier of the two sexes to understand, and say, "I'll prove it. Rent the movie Diner. By the end of the movie, you'll have a masters degree in male behavior." They usually don't follow up on my suggestion (leading me to believe that I had been forced to listen to feminine recreational complaining rather than an actual plea for enlightenment), but on the two occasions that the woman in question took my advice and actually rented the movie the end result was the same. Both times the woman later said to me, "I stopped watching it halfway through. It was stupid and boring."

As my 10th grade Social Studies teacher used to say, "Some of you in this class don't want to learn."

[Gregory Sager]

Dennis, I just hope that Harps doesn't break his leg walking up to the podium to accept his Alumnus of the Year award.