MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Pat Coleman]

No -- I was just noting that in our mock bracketing process we encountered the same issue and couldn't do much better without cheating.

[SevenTen]

All of the above being said, why did they have the top two teams in that group of eight play each other?  Why not at least WashU vs. NCC and IWU vs. Whitewater?  That part still doesn't make a lot of sense to me (other than I guess to avoid a round 2 rematch between NCC and WashU).  Thoughts on that?

[Mr. Ypsi]

All of the above being said, why did they have the top two teams in that group of eight play each other?  Why not at least WashU vs. NCC and IWU vs. Whitewater?  That part still doesn't make a lot of sense to me (other than I guess to avoid a round 2 rematch between NCC and WashU).  Thoughts on that?

IWU/WashU is also a rematch, so that objection is moot.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Top two teams in the 8? NCC was #1 in the final regional rankings... Wash U was #2... IWU was #3... UWW was #3 in the West. NCC vs. Wash U would have been the top two.

[Titan Q]

Top two teams in the 8? NCC was #1 in the final regional rankings... Wash U was #2... IWU was #3... UWW was #3 in the West. NCC vs. Wash U would have been the top two.

But Dave, when they cross regions, don't they have to look at the numbers?  So even if UWW is a #3 in the West region, can't they be considered a higher seed than #3 in the Midwest?

Wouldn't the correct seeding order of the 4 teams go...

#1  North Central (MW): 22-3 (.880)/.551/6-2
#2  UW-Whitewater (W): 22-4 (.846)/.588/5-3
#3  Washington U (MW): 19-5 (.792)/.559/6-4
#4  Illinois Wesleyan (MW): 18-5 (.783)/.556/5-4

I could see keeping the two CCIW teams away from each other for another round, but why not NCC vs Wash U, UWW vs IWU?  Those pairings are both within 500 miles (as are Translyvania/Whitewater and Spalding/NCC.)

[SevenTen]

Right.  That's my thought as well.  Seems unfair to Whitewater to be honest.  They deserved two home games compared to WashU.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Bob - you are moving teams into one rankings... and they don't do that. They look at match-ups to be sure... and per your example... you could move Wash U ahead of UWW with that vRRO... thus you could start moving teams around and around per the criteria.

Midwest: NCC, Wash U, IWU, Rose-Hulman
West: St. Thomas, UWSP, UWW, Whitworth

By those rankings... this is a #1 vs. #3 game... if things were moved around and UWW was #2 or higher it would be more likely that NCC would be playing UWSP instead. None of those are great... but in some ways I don't know how you can avoid these brutal match-ups this year with the lack of Midwest/West teams or teams in the Great Lakes that are close enough.

Trust me... the key to Pat and my mock bracket was Marietta... if they were maybe five miles closer... we would have had them break-up game in the first round and maybe allow more variety to the second round. But they weren't... and it forced a lot of challenging match-ups. The NCAA clearly didn't allow MORE flights than normal (I don't think they restricted flights in anyway)... and that resulted in challenging match-ups this year.

[Titan Q]

Bob - you are moving teams into one rankings... and they don't do that. They look at match-ups to be sure... and per your example... you could move Wash U ahead of UWW with that vRRO... thus you could start moving teams around and around per the criteria.

Midwest: NCC, Wash U, IWU, Rose-Hulman
West: St. Thomas, UWSP, UWW, Whitworth

By those rankings... this is a #1 vs. #3 game... if things were moved around and UWW was #2 or higher it would be more likely that NCC would be playing UWSP instead. None of those are great... but in some ways I don't know how you can avoid these brutal match-ups this year with the lack of Midwest/West teams or teams in the Great Lakes that are close enough.

OK, now I am really confused.  So they build a bracket that crosses regions - North Central (MW), Whitewater (W), Wash U (MW), IWU (MW) - but you are saying they don't try to seed the teams in the group of 4 based on the criteria?

And how in the world could you move Wash U ahead of Whitewater based on the criteria?  It's not close.

If they do this the way you are suggesting, it's worse than I thought.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

What I am saying Bob is that they look at the individual match-ups and try and forecast future match-ups... they don't take two regions and re-rank with them combined! And I was just saying that since Wash U was 6-4 vRRO and UWW was 5-3... it would be a win in that criteria for Wash U... that is all I am saying.

[Titan Q]

What I am saying Bob is that they look at the individual match-ups and try and forecast future match-ups... they don't take two regions and re-rank with them combined! And I was just saying that since Wash U was 6-4 vRRO and UWW was 5-3... it would be a win in that criteria for Wash U... that is all I am saying.

I guess you could say 6-4 is an edge over 5-3, but not enough to treat Wash U as a higher seed than Whitewater you when factor all the numbers in...

- UW-Whitewater (W): 22-4 (.846)/.588/5-3
- Washington U (MW): 19-5 (.792)/.559/6-4

Whitewater is the team getting screwed here - they deserve to host two games (as does NCC). 

[AndOne]

It would not be the first time a school can't host a basketball tournament if their facilities are being used for another event - that is part of the criteria as well when you submit: what are your restrictions. Granted, a single game is easier to host, but if the gym is being used for other purposes that will keep the teams from being able to practice, first and foremost, on the floor they will play on... it isn't going to happen. Now, I have been told from a reliable source that NCC may actually have organized with Benedictine to host the men's game understanding this situation - so that could mean NCC will host this weekend since they were a higher ranked team than UWW.

Above info absolutely correct except for the fact that there was never any "may have" with regard to something being organized with Benedictine. At the time NCC submitted their bid to host, the NCC AD had to advise of the fact that NCC is hosting the D3 national indoor track & field championship next weekend. Approximately 850 athletes, 200 coaches, and 200 more volunteers and officials will invade the NCC campus. The actual events will be held in NCC's new Residential/Recreation (Res/Rec) Center, but Merner Fieldhouse (The "Hangar") will need to be used as a staging and warm-up area. Accordingly, discussions between NCC and neighboring Benedictine began some weeks ago when it became apparent NCC was a playoff team, and had a chance of hosting should its success continue which, fortunately for the Cardinals, proved to be the case. Mark McHorney, the BU AD is a good and very accommodating guy and NC and BU have a long history of playing every year, so its not surprising the arrangement was able to be worked out. When the BU gym was being renovated during the 09-10 season, BU played a "home" game in The Hangar.
I spoke with BU head coach Bunkenburg at a high school game Wed night, and he indicated the only remaining detail was NCAA Committee confirmation that NCC would also "host" if they won their 1st round game. The BU Dan & Ada Rice Center is only 2.9 miles east down Chicago/Maple Ave from The Hangar.   

[AndOne]

Release regarding NCC hosting 2nd round game with UW-W @ Benedictine:

http://www.northcentralcardinals.com/news/2013/3/3/MBB_0303135721.aspx

[SevenTen]

What I am saying Bob is that they look at the individual match-ups and try and forecast future match-ups... they don't take two regions and re-rank with them combined! And I was just saying that since Wash U was 6-4 vRRO and UWW was 5-3... it would be a win in that criteria for Wash U... that is all I am saying.

I guess you could say 6-4 is an edge over 5-3, but not enough to treat Wash U as a higher seed than Whitewater you when factor all the numbers in...

- UW-Whitewater (W): 22-4 (.846)/.588/5-3
- Washington U (MW): 19-5 (.792)/.559/6-4

Whitewater is the team getting screwed here - they deserve to host two games (as does NCC).

Totally agree.  And if Whitewater and WashU were both to win I would expect the committee to compare the two teams and then reward the 3rd round game to UWW.  So if they do those comparisons across regions each round why would they have not at the beginning of the bracket?

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Listen - they do the comparisons when it comes to hosting to be sure (Williams is hosting CUA over the fact Williams was #3 and CUA was #2)... and I know they look at the regional rankings to determine match-ups and even forecast them. However, I don't believe they take two regions, combine them, and then rerank them for this process. It is more individualistic in nature.

[AndOne]

What I am saying Bob is that they look at the individual match-ups and try and forecast future match-ups... they don't take two regions and re-rank with them combined! And I was just saying that since Wash U was 6-4 vRRO and UWW was 5-3... it would be a win in that criteria for Wash U... that is all I am saying.

I guess you could say 6-4 is an edge over 5-3, but not enough to treat Wash U as a higher seed than Whitewater you when factor all the numbers in...

- UW-Whitewater (W): 22-4 (.846)/.588/5-3
- Washington U (MW): 19-5 (.792)/.559/6-4

Whitewater is the team getting screwed here - they deserve to host two games (as does NCC).

Totally agree.  And if Whitewater and WashU were both to win I would expect the committee to compare the two teams and then reward the 3rd round game to UWW.  So if they do those comparisons across regions each round why would they have not at the beginning of the bracket?

Just asking, but if Wash U was ranked 2nd in the Midwest, and UWW 3rd in the West, why would UWW get to host if WU was ranked/seeded higher? What am I missing here?