MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[bopol]

* The tournament is largely regional and because of the sheer abundance of teams in the Northeast/East, there is a regional imbalance, as teams from the East end up with lower ranked teams in the first and second rounds, while the Midwest/West get to beat each other up.  Heck, look at the teams that the CCIW has faced in the 2nd round (5 games against Washington U, 4 against the WIAC, 2 each against Hope, St. Thomas and Hanover).  In the meantime, there aren't any conferences in the Northeast that are at the level of the WIAC, there aren't any individual programs like Wash U, St. Thomas or Hope and Calvin nearby.

For arguments sake: WPI, MIT, RIC, Rochester. I understand your point, but there are some good teams in the Northeast outside of the NESCAC (though, the results in the NCAA tourament haven't always pointed that out). And I do agree that while the CCIW is tough, there is also the WIAC pretty much next door. The NESCAC doesn't really have that except that the NEWMAC in the last few years has risen up as a possible contender. The CCIW and WIAC just have more history at being near the top.

Eh, those are fine teams, but I think none of those have won a championship which the teams I listed won seven out of the last nine years.  In fact, only twice have those teams made the Final 4 (MIT in 2012 and Rochester in 2006).

Furthermore, there is usually one solid bracket that geographically contains the WIAC teams, CCIW teams, St. Thomas, Wash U and one of Hope and Calvin, which is usually a pretty toxic mix.

[Gregory Sager]

Greg, couple points:

1) dcahill44 is not a NESCAC poster, and his view that the NESCAC is the 'Toughest in the Country' is not shared by the informed NESCAC posters.

I already acknowledged that second point, five days ago:

I'm as aware as anyone of what sort of limitations the D3 men's basketball championship committee is under with regard to expenditures. I'm fully cognizant of the fact that the bizarre, one-game-per-week nature of this year's dance makes it even tougher upon midwestern teams with regard to constructing a fair bracket, because the opportunity to bring far-flung teams together in one first-weekend pod of four isn't there. In one sense, I'm simply reacting to a yahoo comment like this one:

3 NESCACS in the Elite 8... shows how this league is the Toughest in the Country.

... which I realize is not a position held by the more astute NESCAC posters

I didn't realize that, as magicman revealed today, dcahill44 is an East Region fan (and is only 13 years old, which explains his overexuberant comment) and not a NESCAC poster. But I did acknowledge back on Tuesday that dcahill44 doesn't speak for informed NESCAC fans.

2) kind of unfair to include all of Titan Q's posts, but none of the replies from the NESCAC crew, which completely admitted that the midwest does have a harder path the Sweet 16 / Elite 8.

I didn't include any NESCAC fan replies, because I don't think that the point Bob raised about the harder path of the midwestern teams is really in dispute by anybody, whether northeastern-based or midwestern-based. Bob raised the point to explain the frustration of CCIW fans, which he states is the genesis of the reciprocal feeling felt by nescac1 that CCIW Chat "has generally been filled with disrespect or outright bile towards NESCAC teams." In other words, Bob was describing what's really going on with the CCIW folks, whom he and I both feel were collectively misrepresented by nescac1's comment.

3) Even Titan Q didn't seem to think that his (very well done) post about the path to the sweet 16 negated my earlier point that NESCAC teams have been more successful against the top levels of competition in the NCAA tournament. My original post conceded, and it would be absurd not to concede, that the road to a championship is harder if you play in the midwest. That doesn't really affect anything I said in my original post.

As I said, I totally agree with Bob's posts -- which means that, where he assents to your argument, I do as well. There is no question that the NESCAC has done a better job in the Final Four over the past decade than has the CCIW.

[kiko]

I don't think any credible CCIW fan/poster questions how good the NESCAC is - I certainly don't.  I think come tournament time it just all comes down to frustration around the bracketing thing. 

Just to illustrate, here is a look at 2nd round games from 2002-03 through 2012-13.  The ranking is that from the D3hoops.com poll at the time of the game (the week 13 ranking)...

CCIW 2nd Rounds
2012-13: Illinois Wesleyan @ #17 Wash U
2012-13: North Central vs #5 UW-Whitewater
2012-13: Wheaton @ #1 St. Thomas
2011-12: Illinois Wesleyan @ #1 Hope
2011-12: North Central @ #19 Wash U
2011-12: Wheaton vs Edgewood
2010-11: Illinois Wesleyan @ #8 St. Thomas (eventual national champ)
2010-11: Augustana vs Hope
2009-10: Illinois Wesleyan @ #1 Wash U
2009-10: Carthage vs #24 Anderson
2009-10: Wheaton @ #19 Texas-Dallas
2008-09:  Wheaton vs #5 UW-Platteville
2007-08:  Augustana vs #11 Wash U (eventual national champ)
2006-07:  n/a
2005-06:  Illinois Wesleyan vs #15 UW-Whitewater
2005-06:  Augustana vs #19 UW-Stout
2004-05:  Illinois Wesleyan vs #12 Hanover
2003-04:  Illinois Wesleyan vs #2 Hanover
2002-03:  Illinois Wesleyan vs #2 Wash U
         
NESCAC 2nd Rounds
2012-13: Williams vs #9 Catholic
2012-13: Amherst vs Plattsburgh St
2012:13: Middlebury vs #23 Cortland St
2011-12: Middlebury vs #16 Albertus Magnus
2011-12: Amherst vs NYU
2010-11: Williams vs Becker
2010-11: Amherst vs #14 WPI
2010-11: Middlebury vs #22 Western Conn
2009-10: Middlebury vs Rhode Island College
2009-10:  Williams vs Maine-Farmington
2008-09:  Middlebury vs Bridgewater State
2007-08:  Amherst vs John Jay
2006-07:  Amherst vs Widener
2005-06:  Amherst vs Hamilton
2005-06:  Tufts vs Cortland State
2004-05:  Amherst vs Springfield
2003-04:  Williams vs Salem State
2003-04:  Amherst vs Plymouth State
2003-04:  Trinity vs Brockport State
2002-03:  Williams vs Salem State
2002-03:  Amherst vs Southern Vermont

I think it is worth calling attention to one other attribute related to this.  Bob had flagged the location of the CCIW's second round games but not those for NESCAC schools.  Here are the locations of the second round games the NESCAC teams have played:

Home - 2012-13: Williams vs #9 Catholic
Home - 2012-13: Amherst vs Plattsburgh St
Road - 2012:13: Middlebury vs #23 Cortland St
Home - 2011-12: Middlebury vs #16 Albertus Magnus
Home - 2011-12: Amherst vs NYU
Home - 2010-11: Williams vs Becker
Road - 2010-11: Amherst vs #14 WPI
Home - 2010-11: Middlebury vs #22 Western Conn
Home - 2009-10: Middlebury vs Rhode Island College
Home - 2009-10:  Williams vs Maine-Farmington
Home - 2008-09:  Middlebury vs Bridgewater State
Home - 2007-08:  Amherst vs John Jay
Home - 2006-07:  Amherst vs Widener
Home - 2005-06:  Amherst vs Hamilton
Neutral - 2005-06:  Tufts vs Cortland State
Home - 2004-05:  Amherst vs Springfield
Home - 2003-04:  Williams vs Salem State
Home - 2003-04:  Amherst vs Plymouth State
Road - 2003-04:  Trinity vs Brockport State
Home - 2002-03:  Williams vs Salem State
Home - 2002-03:  Amherst vs Southern Vermont

As we all know, home court advantage can be, well, an advantage.  Credit to the NESCAC teams for putting themselves in a position to earn the home court advantage in the overwhelming majority of their early round games.  (And to be clear, I am not suggesting they are being gifted these home games.)  But it is another element in the imbalance of the brackets en route to Salem.  Good teams in one part of the country are regularly thrown into a sausage grinder against one another, often in hostile arenas.  Three times in the past four years, the CCIW has drawn road matchups against the nation's top-ranked team.  Good teams in another part of the country are getting home games against weaker opponents.

I am not suggesting that any of the NESCAC final four teams was not worthy of their spot in Salem -- they earned it, and as the folks on that board have asserted, generally acquitted themselves well in Virginia.  There is certainly opportunity for CCIW schools to do better when they reach the final four -- this particular metric is the primary difference in my mind's eye between the two conferences.

One other observation - I count five schools from each conference reaching the second round during that span -- so relatively equal depth from both conferences.  Each have a couple of onesey-twosey schools (Carthage, North Central, Tufts, Trinity), and other schools that are regular visitors to deeper rounds (IWU, Wheaton, and of course Amherst and Williams).

Said differently, it isn't just Amherst and Williams demonstrating success from the NESCAC, though they are clearly the two top pedigreed programs from that conference.  I don't think anyone here is arguing that it's big-two-little-eight, which is good -- the numbers don't support that argument.

[Titan Q]

2013-14 CCIW Projection (late-March 2013)
1. Illinois Wesleyan (23-6, 13-1) - loses starting F/C Kevin Reed (2nd team all-CCIW)

2. Wheaton (21-7, 10-4) - loses reserve guard Nate Serenius

3. Augustana (19-8, 8-6) - loses starting F/C Brandon Kunz (2nd team) and reserve post George Dexter

4. North Central (28-4, 11-3) - loses starting forwards Derek Raridon (CCIW M.O.P.) and Aaron Tiknis (3rd team)

5. Millikin (8-17, 4-10) - loses reserve guard Rodney Clark

6. Carthage (12-13, 7-7) - loses starting 4/5 players Mitch Thompson (2nd team) and Tyler Pierce (3rd team)

7. Elmhurst (6-19, 2-12) - loses starting PG D'Ante Foster and starting 5 Erik Dornfield

8. North Park (6-19, 1-13) - loses guards Zach Cassita and Brett Peterson, and forward Mark Holmes

[Naperick]

2013-14 CCIW Projection (late-March 2013)
1. Illinois Wesleyan (23-6, 13-1) - loses starting F/C Kevin Reed (2nd team all-CCIW)

2. Wheaton (21-7, 10-4) - loses reserve guard Nate Serenius

3. Augustana (19-8, 8-6) - loses starting F/C Brandon Kunz (2nd team) and reserve post George Dexter

4. North Central (28-4, 11-3) - loses starting forwards Derek Raridon (CCIW M.O.P.) and Aaron Tiknis (3rd team)

5. Millikin (8-17, 4-10) - loses reserve guard Rodney Clark

6. Carthage (12-13, 7-7) - loses starting 4/5 players Mitch Thompson (2nd team) and Tyler Pierce (3rd team)

7. Elmhurst (6-19, 2-12) - loses starting PG D'Ante Foster and starting 5 Erik Dornfield

8. North Park (6-19, 1-13) - loses guards Zach Cassita and Brett Peterson, and forward Mark Holmes

That looks about right for the information that is available right now.

[Titan Q]

From playing the Titans to the D1 Sweet 16 in 9 years...

http://sun.iwu.edu/~iwunews/sports/mbb2004/Miwu10.htm

[Naperick]

From playing the Titans to the D1 Sweet 16 in 9 years...

http://sun.iwu.edu/~iwunews/sports/mbb2004/Miwu10.htm

What a story Florida Gulf Coast is so far!  They are athletic!

Thanks for posting that link.  IWU had some great talent.  Was that Keelan's CCIW MOP year?

[Naperick]

Anybody have information on Elmhurst's head coaching search?

[Titan Q]

From playing the Titans to the D1 Sweet 16 in 9 years...

http://sun.iwu.edu/~iwunews/sports/mbb2004/Miwu10.htm

What a story Florida Gulf Coast is so far!  They are athletic!

Thanks for posting that link.  IWU had some great talent.  Was that Keelan's CCIW MOP year?

Yes, this was Keelan's sophomore year, and he went on to win the M.O.P.

[Mr. Ypsi]

From playing the Titans to the D1 Sweet 16 in 9 years...

http://sun.iwu.edu/~iwunews/sports/mbb2004/Miwu10.htm

What a story Florida Gulf Coast is so far!  They are athletic!

Thanks for posting that link.  IWU had some great talent.  Was that Keelan's CCIW MOP year?

Yes, this was Keelan's sophomore year, and he went on to win the M.O.P.

And what a 'beginning' to freshman Zach Freeman's career - 24 and 11!

I had totally forgotten that he was THAT good as a freshman.

[bopol]

2013-14 CCIW Projection (late-March 2013)
1. Illinois Wesleyan (23-6, 13-1) - loses starting F/C Kevin Reed (2nd team all-CCIW)

2. Wheaton (21-7, 10-4) - loses reserve guard Nate Serenius

3. Augustana (19-8, 8-6) - loses starting F/C Brandon Kunz (2nd team) and reserve post George Dexter

4. North Central (28-4, 11-3) - loses starting forwards Derek Raridon (CCIW M.O.P.) and Aaron Tiknis (3rd team)

5. Millikin (8-17, 4-10) - loses reserve guard Rodney Clark

6. Carthage (12-13, 7-7) - loses starting 4/5 players Mitch Thompson (2nd team) and Tyler Pierce (3rd team)

7. Elmhurst (6-19, 2-12) - loses starting PG D'Ante Foster and starting 5 Erik Dornfield

8. North Park (6-19, 1-13) - loses guards Zach Cassita and Brett Peterson, and forward Mark Holmes

Hard to guess on Carthage...if Malcolm Kelly returns, they'll have a very strong backcourt with Logan, Herth and Sykes, Jr.  If Jaskulske returns, that'll mitigate some of the front court problems.  That'd be a pretty solid team.

[iwu70]

Boy, lots of good talent returning to the CCIW next season.  Should be another great conference race.   I think IWU will be very very strong, with that strong, big class becoming seniors, having their last season to go the distance.  They accomplished alot this year, but I'm sure want more next year.  Big rotation returning and Ron Rose only needing to find a new 5, replacement for Kevin Reed, which will not be easy shoes to fill.  I'd think at first glance it would be Anderson or Musselman, or perhaps some new alignments using Zimmer and Dortch more.  Depends alot on off-season work, weight work and fitness training, as well as skills enhancements over the off-season.  Great to see Overstreet, Sodemann, Davis, Zman, Zimmer, Dolan, Dortch, Mayberger, Anderson, Musselman all coming back.  Perhaps some guys way down the pine will surprise -- Colye, Marrieti, Nelms, others?  Heyen should be back, healthy.  We'll see on recruiting what comes . . . as well as recruiting from all the other CCIW programs.  One never knows.

Good luck to Kevin Reed and Dan Oswald in all future endeavors following graduation in May.

I see Amherst taking the Walnut and Bronze in the game behind the Magnolia Curtain in two weeks time.

IWU70

[magicman]

From playing the Titans to the D1 Sweet 16 in 9 years...

http://sun.iwu.edu/~iwunews/sports/mbb2004/Miwu10.htm

See my post about the Florida Gulf Coast coach and his DIII connections on the 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament board.

Here's the link:

http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=7752.465

[Dennis_Prikkel]

congratulations to the Cardinals on their Final Four finish.

congratulations to IWU for their CCIW championship and NCAA tournament performance.

see you all next year.

dgp

[USee]

I don't have anything to add to the BBall discussion here but I know the NESCAC sucks at football. And I can also confidently state  the CCIW has fared better in the NCAA playoffs in football than the NESCAC! Just look at the data! Zero wins for the NESCAC in NCAA football. Zero! How bad is that?