MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Knightstalker]

If anyone knows Bollier tell him to shoot me an email when he is getting ready to leave for Secaucus or when he gets here.  I can answer any questions about the area and point him towards the good inexpensive eateries in the area etc.

[iwumichigander]

devildog29 - I could not agree more.  Augie thus far has found a way to win. Whether Augie backed in, drove in or jumped in -- they in.  I disagree however with your statement about nobdoy expected Augie to be in this postiion.  In the CCIW pre-season coached poll one coached voted for Augie.  And, since a coach can't cast a vote for his own team -- that would then most likely be my guess -- IWU's Scott Trost.

C'mon, IWM, you're inverting the meaning of Trost's vote. Scott Trost can't vote for his own team -- but if he could've voted for the Titans he most certainly would have done so. Do you really think that Trost thought back in November that Augustana would beat out his team for the CCIW crown? Do you really think he wouldn't have voted for Illinois Wesleyan if the coaches poll's

C'mon Greg stop trying to put words here i never wrote.  1) pointed out Trost could not vote for his own team  2) never wrote Trost nor his team had any doubts about IWU outlook and 3) never wrote Trost would not have voted for IWU if he were allowed - certainly he would. 

My point remains on point - Trost picked the one team out of seven he was allowed to vote for and end up voting for Augie.  He could have picked any one of six other teams (No, I take that back - there is no way he would have picked North Park  )  Heaven forbid had he not cast a vote as you probably would write several pages about that.

[sac]

Any CCIW fans feel they're getting jipped by not haveing all 8 teams in the conference tournament?

[usee]

one of the reasons i come on here is to read sager's comments (thats a sad existence but true).

I am interested in the analysis of what happened to IWU this year. I read after every game Q's breakdown win or lose. He did a great job of analyzing each game and outcome and often the particular stretch IWU was in but i haven't seen much on the season analysis or perspective.  after reading this board for over a year it was clear to everyone here that IWU was the team to beat this year in the nation, let alone the cciw. I watched these same guys play 3x last year and I was convinced they would be the real deal this year. now, this year is not yet done and we all know the CCIW is tough but if we are really honest what is the reason a team that is more talented at every position than every team they played, loses 5 conference games when the same team a year ago lost only 2? was it that there are too many stars and they didn't figure out their roles? I don't buy the "It's Trost's fault" reason. If this analysis has already been hashed through i am happy to go back and read if someone would point me to the approximate page number. thanks

[Titan Q]

This is posted on Wheaton's website:

"If Wheaton can defeat Elmhurst and close the regular season with a win against Carthage College on Feb. 22 and North Central defeats Augustana this Saturday, Wheaton would get the tournament bid."

I'm not sure what Augie vs NCC has to do with Wheaton's chances...maybe I'm missing something.  It seems to me that if Elmhurst and Wheaton tie at 8-6, then Wheaton would get in over Elmhurst, regardless of what North Central does vs Augustana.  Head-to-head would be a push (split) and Wheaton would come out on top by virtue of being 1-1 vs Augustana (the top team) while Elmhurst would be 0-2 vs Augie.

Scenario #1
@North Central over Augie
@Wheaton over Elmhurst
@IWU over North Park
@Carthage over Millikin

@Wheaton over Carthage (Tues)

Augustana 11-3
North Central 9-5
Illinois Wesleyan 9-5
Elmhurst 8-6
Wheaton 8-6
Carthage 6-8
Millikin 3-11
North Park 2-12

Tournament seeds:

#1 - Augie
#2/3 - IWU/North Central (doesn't really matter 2 vs 3)
#4 - Wheaton (tie-breaker over Elmhurst based on win over Augie)


Scenario #2
Augie over @North Central
@Wheaton over Elmhurst
@IWU over North Park
@Carthage over Millikin

@Wheaton over Carthage (Tues)

Augustana 12-2
Illinois Wesleyan 9-5
North Central 8-6
Elmhurst 8-6
Wheaton 8-6
Carthage 6-8
Millikin 3-11
North Park 2-12

Tournament seeds:

#1 - Augie
#2 - IWU

3-way tie for final two spots

NCC vs Elmhurst = split
NCC vs Wheaton = NCC sweep
Elmhurst vs Wheaton = split

NCC becomes #3 seed with the sweep over one of the other teams in the tie, Wheaton.

Left with Elmhurst vs Wheaton and again, Wheaton comes out on top due to the win over Augie.



I assume I am missing something, but what?

[Titan Q]

Question - why is the CCIW allowing a game to be played on Wednesday 2/22 (Carthage @ Wheaton)?  Shouldn't all games be completed this Saturday, 2/18?  Is it right for the tournament teams to have to wait until late Wednesday night to know who they are playing on Friday?

[Jim Matson]

usee, since when did you start using caps and proper punctuation?  Awesome!

[sac]

Question - why is the CCIW allowing a game to be played on Tuesday 2/22 (Carthage @ Wheaton)?  Shouldn't all games be completed this Saturday, 2/18?  Is it right for the tournament teams to have to wait until late Tuesday night to know who they are playing on Friday?

If you had a full 8 teams in the tournament this is exactly what would happen.  Possibly even Wednesday night.

The MIAA"s first round in next Wed, semi's on Friday.

[Titan Q]

one of the reasons i come on here is to read sager's comments (thats a sad existence but true).

I am interested in the analysis of what happened to IWU this year. I read after every game Q's breakdown win or lose. He did a great job of analyzing each game and outcome and often the particular stretch IWU was in but i haven't seen much on the season analysis or perspective.  after reading this board for over a year it was clear to everyone here that IWU was the team to beat this year in the nation, let alone the cciw. I watched these same guys play 3x last year and I was convinced they would be the real deal this year. now, this year is not yet done and we all know the CCIW is tough but if we are really honest what is the reason a team that is more talented at every position than every team they played, loses 5 conference games when the same team a year ago lost only 2? was it that there are too many stars and they didn't figure out their roles? I don't buy the "It's Trost's fault" reason. If this analysis has already been hashed through i am happy to go back and read if someone would point me to the approximate page number. thanks

usee, I'd answer your question if I could, but I'm not sure I really can.  I do know that Scott Trost coached the same players the same way in 2004 (12-2) and 2005 (12-2) as he has so far in 2006 (8-5).

I've compared this team to the IWU team my senior year (1993).  That team returned everyone from a 14-2 CCIW title team - Steve Kuehl, Brian Martin, Steve Czirjak, John Lipic, etc..  Not only that, but they returned David Kunka - a 1st teamer on the 15-1 1991 team - who came back on a medical redshirt 5th year.  And Mark Aubry transfered in from D1 Montana State in December.  The 1993 Titans were just as much a favorite to win the CCIW as the 2006 IWU team.  The result...

Augustana 12-2
Illinois Wesleyan 9-5

IWU was dethroned by an Augustana team led by a superstar (Kirk Anderson) and a bunch of really solid role players.  Sure sounds like 2006 to me with Rick Harrigan being Kirk Anderson, Jay McAdams-Thorton being Aben Cooper, etc.  Augie went on to finish 2nd in the country.

I guess one could say that IWU's 1993 team had significant personnel changes with Kunka coming back, Aubry coming in, etc, but still 9-5 was a "disappointment" based purely on talent vs final record.  

This Titan team starts the same guys as last year...they just haven't had the same success.  I honestly don't think anyone could come here to tell us exactly what has gone wrong in the conference season (IWU was 10-0 in the non-conference with wins over some strong teams).  

I also know that 2005-06 isn't over yet.

[Gregory Sager]

devildog29 - I could not agree more.  Augie thus far has found a way to win. Whether Augie backed in, drove in or jumped in -- they in.  I disagree however with your statement about nobdoy expected Augie to be in this postiion.  In the CCIW pre-season coached poll one coached voted for Augie.  And, since a coach can't cast a vote for his own team -- that would then most likely be my guess -- IWU's Scott Trost.

C'mon, IWM, you're inverting the meaning of Trost's vote. Scott Trost can't vote for his own team -- but if he could've voted for the Titans he most certainly would have done so. Do you really think that Trost thought back in November that Augustana would beat out his team for the CCIW crown? Do you really think he wouldn't have voted for Illinois Wesleyan if the coaches poll's

C'mon Greg stop trying to put words here i never wrote.  1) pointed out Trost could not vote for his own team  2) never wrote Trost nor his team had any doubts about IWU outlook and 3) never wrote Trost would not have voted for IWU if he were allowed - certainly he would. 

My point remains on point - Trost picked the one team out of seven he was allowed to vote for and end up voting for Augie.  He could have picked any one of six other teams (No, I take that back - there is no way he would have picked North Park  )  Heaven forbid had he not cast a vote as you probably would write several pages about that.

No, your point was contained in this sentence: "I disagree however with your statement about nobody expected Augie to be in this position [sic]." The "this position" in your quote was first place in the CCIW. That's what Devildog was talking about -- Augie winning the CCIW title. Trost did not expect Augie to win the CCIW title. He was forced by the rules of the coaches poll to vote for a team other than his own, so his vote was therefore completely irrelevant to the issue of which team he felt would win the championship and extraneous to this debate.

Devildog was right in the first place, and you were in error to disagree with him.

[Jim Matson]

8 team Tourney doesn't make sense.  Too much beating each other about the face...

[Gregory Sager]

#2/3 - IWU/North Central (doesn't really matter 2 vs 3)

Ah, but you're forgetting that all-important choice of home or road uniform that the #2 seed presumably gets.  

Question - why is the CCIW allowing a game to be played on Tuesday 2/22 (Carthage @ Wheaton)?  Shouldn't all games be completed this Saturday, 2/18?  Is it right for the tournament teams to have to wait until late Tuesday night to know who they are playing on Friday?

I'm not sure that it makes any difference. For scouting reasons, certainly, every team in the league is familiar with the other seven by now. And a couple of days of practice prep and film work should certainly be sufficient to get ready for the Friday opponent.

Ideally, the regular season would be all wrapped up this coming Saturday. But it isn't, largely because Wheaton's extended road trip to southern California took place during the first week of CCIW play and thus left them two games behind everyone else in the sked. They've already caught up one of those games by playing @ North Central on a Monday. Since Wheaton is in the habit of playing their extended road trip during the first week in January every year, my guess is that this single-game coda to the CCIW slate involving the Sonic Atmospheric Disturbance is going to be a regular feature of the conference from now on -- especially since the league office is now handling scheduling, which strongly implies that the CCIW is fine with making allowances for Wheaton's programmatic peculiarities with regard to scheduling.

Over on the women's side of things, there's actually two regular-season games scheduled for next Tuesday: Wheaton @ Carthage and Elmhurst @ Millikin. And they're much more likely to be important in terms of the final standings and CCIW tournament than the Carthage @ Wheaton men's game will be.

8 team Tourney doesn't make sense.  Too much beating each other about the face...

Jim, go back and read Q's and my posts from yesterday. The eight-team tournament actually makes more sense for Pool C purposes than a four-team tournament does.

[Pat Coleman]

I'm not sure what Augie vs NCC has to do with Wheaton's chances...maybe I'm missing something. 

This is what Wheaton told me:
----------------
"Record against team(s) above the tie beginning with the highest ranked
team. In cases of more than two teams being involved in a tie, the
composite record of the involved teams will be considered.  For example,
in a three way tie between teams A, B and C, if Team A has a sweep over
Team C and split with Team B, Team B has a split with both Teams A and C
and Team C has two losses to Team A and a split with Team B then the
composite records would be A 3-1, B 2-2 and C 1-3.  If all teams
involved in the tie have split/even records, then criteria (b) would be
considered."

Meaning if Wheaton (1-3), NCC (3-1), and Elmhurst (2-2) are all 8-6:
North Central would have the best composite record at 3-1, then Elmhurst
would have the next best composite at 2-2, hence those two would go.
----------------
I don't know why there's such a big deal about a game Tuesday night. In almost every other conference there are games Saturday and then tournament Tuesday or Wednesday. That's a pretty normal distance between end of regular season and beginning of playoffs in the rest of Division III.

[Ralph Turner]

usee, since when did you start using caps and proper punctuation?  Awesome!

I attribute it to the life-changing effect that citing "Exodus 20:18" has had on his life.

[augie_superfan]

Q, I was trying to figure out the tiebreaker stuff too and I was getting hung up on the 2nd (part b) tiebreaker that was posted in the recent league release:

Record against team(s) above the tie beginning with the highest ranked team.  In cases of more than 2 teams being involved in a tie, the composite record of the teams involved will be considered.

If anyone could clarify that, I would appreciate it. 

Here is how an Augie win could affect the tiebreaker.  If they all tie at 8-6, then NCC gets the #3 since they went 3-1 vs. Elmhurst and Wheaton.  Then, since only 2 teams are left, you'd think the tiebreaker would just revert to being a 2-way tie for 4th, which Wheaton would win.  If it doesn't though, and they consider Elmhurst having the 2-2 record (vs. NCC & Wheaton) compared to Wheaton's 1-3 record (vs. Elmhurst & NCC)...then Elmhurst would win the tiebreaker.

I always thought that in a 3-way tie, they went until they made it down to a 2-way tie and then started the whole process over from the top...that may not be the case here and there is nothing clear to tell if that is how it is.

For example, reading the WIAC tiebreaking procedures, it clearly states that if 2 teams remain after eliminating 1 or more teams from multi-team tiebreaker, then it will revert back to Tiebreaker #1.  I wish ours were clearly stated.