MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Titan Q]

Rankings by region from the super computer of KnightSlappy...

http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=4232.msg1573980#msg1573980

[mwunder]

Rankings by region from the super computer of KnightSlappy...

http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=4232.msg1573980#msg1573980

HUGE LOSS last night for Carthage since they've beaten both of the teams directly ahead of them (assuming last night's results have been included.)

MW   01   0.882   0.559   0.640   006   0-0   CCIW     Illinois Wesleyan
MW   02   0.882   0.535   0.622   011   0-0   CCIW     Augustana
MW   03   0.647   0.602   0.613   022   0-0   CCIW     Wheaton (Ill.)
MW   04   0.857   0.527   0.609   025   0-0   UAA      Washington U.
MW   05   0.667   0.569   0.594   037   0-0   CCIW     Carthage

[carthage guy]

sure is.. after watching the film again the worst of the controversal calls was the foul on Marlon Senior with 2.4 seconds left.  It was just not a call you make at that point of the game.

carthage needs senior to play better in these games as he is their real #2 option offensively.  Last night Carthage had 4 assists, all by dante logan, in 40 min of game action.  That stat is almost incredible to believe.  Ball must move more against IWU and create more different looks.  Malcom can get his, but 4 the rest of the team to be successful the ball has to move better

Saturday is a new opportunity in front of a big crowd.

[mwunder]

I truly believe that Bopol and Carthage Guy discussing Pool C possibilities is what did Carthage in last night in Elmhurst.   

[AndOne]

A few observations/thoughts/questions from last night's NCC @ IWU game, mainly focusing on IWU who it appears is legitimately in the forefront of the discussion of the nation's top teams. 

I know IWU fans will disagree with some of this, but my skewed thinking is that part of the purpose of these boards is to bring to light differing opinions, and to stimulate discussion, so here we go. There are not necessarily any right or wrong points/answers here.

* First of all, as TQ stated, the final 72-57 score was not really indicative of the relative "closeness" of this game. Wesleyan did more things right at the right times, and rightfully got the W, but the Cardinals stayed right with the #4 team for 33 minutes. Vince Kmiec had another nice game, and Brandon Williams and sub Evan Fendley were particularly impressive with both having their best games of the year. Brandon hit for 14 points on a nice combination of outside shooting and inside drives, and Evan aggressively popped for 9 points in 12 minutes.

* Depth and balance was displayed by the Green Weenies (just a nickname boys). 4 of the 5 starters were in double figures as well as the primary player off the bench. These 2 factors are a huge part of the Green Team's success in 2013-14.

* As was previously indicated, IWU did a good job bottling up NCC's inside game. Lots of weak side help and doubling down on NCC's Gamble and Burchett. I believe the chief architects were Ziemnik and Davis, particularly Ziemnik. As CCIW followers know, Andrew is a superior offensive force. He may also rank highly from a defensive standpoint. Last night he was certainly also a force defensively, however, a large part of that defensive effort was the result of his continual pushing and grabbing. I know IWU fans will contend this because Wesleyan never fouls, but I think Andrew would be the first to tell you he got away with a lot on the defensive end. I actually credit him for his ability to do so! NCC isn't winning much when Gamble and Burchett combine for only 14 points. They need to score  double that in most instances.

* Most observers who have followed basketball for any length of time know that fouls generally pretty much even out. However, in last night's game this proved not to be the case, particularly in the 2nd half. At various points therein, NCC held the dubious lead in fouls against of 4-0, 9-3, and 14-6.
I want to make it clear that I'm not saying IWU won the game because of the refs calls. Had no FTs been made in the entire game, IWU would have still won 52-51. However, its interesting that there was this much of a discrepancy in the foul total, especially give that A) the NCC staff never told their players to foul "intentionally," and B) IWU is a very rough and physical team, a fact which cannot be refuted.
Also, I'd like to see a little consistency on the part of the refs. What wasn't a foul in the 1st half, for either team, suddenly became one during the 2nd half.

* Jordan Nelson used to be a Division One player? Really? I think at the beginning of the season, even Wesleyan supporters generally assumed he would win the starting 2G position away from Sodemann, a good player to be sure,  but certainly not assumed to be on a level with a D1 transfer. Yet, he hasn't been able to do so. In fact, Bryce Dolan appears to be just as good overall, if not better. Dolan looks to be a better ball handler. His ability to do such things as use both hands, go between his legs, and be very quick with the ball is impressive. In addition, Dolan shoots 10% better overall than Nelson, and 20% better on threes. I think IWU would benefit by having Dolan see more minutes.
Opinions on that possibility?

* If IWU has an Achilles Heel, it appears to be at the center position. Apparently, Anderson, the initial starter, has been beaten out by Marietti. This is understandable. However, Marietti doesn't seem to really be too much of an upgrade. Last night, their combined line was 0 points, and 0 rebounds. Not good for IWU going forward.

* On the other hand, Mike Mayberger is the bomb! Is there a better non starter in the conference? Highly doubtful.
I can see him being all conference despite not being a starter! And, in that regard, would Wesleyan be an even better team if Victor Davis slid over to the center spot with Ziemnik at the 4, and Mayberger starting at the 3??
It seems like they would still have enough beef/rebounding ability, and defensive stopping ability while at the same time, being more potentially explosive and dangerous on the offensive end.   

* Will this year's CCIW tournament host be the winner of the 2/5 Augie @ Wesleyan game?

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

sure is.. after watching the film again the worst of the controversal calls was the foul on Marlon Senior with 2.4 seconds left.  It was just not a call you make at that point of the game.

carthage needs senior to play better in these games as he is their real #2 option offensively.  Last night Carthage had 4 assists, all by dante logan, in 40 min of game action.  That stat is almost incredible to believe.  Ball must move more against IWU and create more different looks.  Malcom can get his, but 4 the rest of the team to be successful the ball has to move better

Saturday is a new opportunity in front of a big crowd.

If it is a foul at the beginning of the game... it should be called at the end of the game. The "swallow your whistle" and "let them play" reasoning is BS. I ranted about it on Hoopsville earlier this season... let them play ignores the fact that the players fouling each other is the players actually deciding the game as well. Foul is a foul and I wish people didn't expect officials to all of the sudden ignore calls and not blow whistles letting the game turn into street ball just because the clock is under a certain threshold.

[AndOne]

It seems like most people already have the four teams that will make the conference tourney. And NCC is not one of the four.
Not so fast I say. Any team that has, All-American Landon Gamble, Vince Kmiec, and Jack Burchett, and a good supporting cast, shouldn't be forgotten.
I don't know the main reason for their 7 losses, but with all that talent, they could, and might go on a run to finish the season.
I just hope that run doesn't start tonight at the Shirk.
IWU seems to struggle trying to contain Landon Gamble, as do a lot of teams . When NCC has needed a bucket, he usually steps up and delivers.
I think it will be a close game tonight, usually is.

D-3 Watcher!

Finally, an appearance! 
Thought you may have retired from D3Land in favor of jet setting in Rio or Buenos Aires, vacationing at the villa on the Mediterranean, or scouting Sochi in preparation for the Olympics. 

[carthage guy]

wunder

I thought about that last night when the Red Men were down 22 at one point ..

The game dictates calls that are made... a foul is not a foul!!  cmon now

[carthage guy]

and one

After seeing both teams... What does Carthage have to do beat Wesleyan Saturday night?  Is this a game that comes down to depth vs Carthage home court and star player?

[bopol]

I truly believe that Bopol and Carthage Guy discussing Pool C possibilities is what did Carthage in last night in Elmhurst.   

That has crossed my mind.  Man, I didn't see the game and I'm glad I didn't.  ARG!

[Gregory Sager]

wunder

I thought about that last night when the Red Men were down 22 at one point ..

The game dictates calls that are made... a foul is not a foul!!  cmon now

Sorry, but I completely disagree with you. D-Mac is 100% correct. A good ref calls the game in the final minute the same way that he called it in the previous 39 minutes. The key to good officiating is consistency, and players and coaches have the right to expect the referees to call the game the same way throughout. Besides, as D-Mac said, the game will degenerate into street ball if it becomes an "anything goes" affair at the end with the outcome in doubt.

Calling the game the same way for the full forty minutes not only protects the integrity of the game, it protects the safety of the players as well.

[carthage guy]

cant disagree with u guys more on this one...  their was a point in the game when 1 official, i believe rick o neil, called 3 consecutive hand checks on carthage 25 ft from the basket.  YOU want that called on the last possession of the game.  Ur intention is good but games will never be officiated that way!!! 

[sac]

A first hand account of the technical foul on Carthage with :02 to play would be very helpful.

Video - http://new.livestream.com/elmhurstcollege/basketballmens

The final 2 minutes or so starts at about 1:48:00.


The camera was not on the Carthage bench at the time the T was called, but based on how crazy Bosko went on the play before that (with Malcom Kelly taking the ball to the basket), I think there is a very good chance he earned the T.  The officials seemed to give Bosko a ton of slack on the play before - he could have been T'd up at that point.

On the play Bosko got upset about - Kelly's drive to the basket with about :15 to go - I don't see an obvious foul at all.  Certainly no undercut...just kind of a glancing swipe by the Elmhurst defender.

Also worth noting, Kelly could have been called for an offensive foul on the shot he made with 0:27 to go.  Carthage may have gotten a break on that one.

He seems to be upset that the ball out of bounds was given to Elmhurst. 

Magic words if the ref 70 feet away calls a T.  Anyway thanks for the video, unusual to see a 'T' with a game on the line like that.

[FishHack76]

So what happened to NCC this season? I saw they were ranked in the top 5 nationally in the preseason but are 9-8 and 2-4 in the CCIW? So what gives?

From the statistics, it looks like the Cards are just not as skilled at slowing down opponents. (64.6 points per game vs. 58.5 last season and 47.5 percent shooting to 39.3). Is there something else?

[AndOne]

and one

After seeing both teams... What does Carthage have to do beat Wesleyan Saturday night?  Is this a game that comes down to depth vs Carthage home court and star player?

As often is the case in football, this will be a classic speed vs power game. I don't have to tell you which team is which.
For a Carthage upset---quickly, off the top of my head, I'd say:

* "Gramps" Kelly has to have another big game. A minimum of 20.
* CC's other players need to help Kelly. At least one more player needs to score close to 20.
* Kastel needs to think defense and rebounding first. Scoring is secondary, and any points scored are a bonus.
* To me, CC's strengths, after Kelly's scoring potential, are speed and athleticism. They need to run every chance they get and "outquick" IWU's bigs down the floor. Logan needs to lead the break and pull up for open mid range shots or dish to the wings flying to the basket.
* To further utilize their speed, I think CC needs to run Herth & Sykes through screens to create open looks. They then need to hit a good percentage of their outside shots to draw the IWU defense away from the basket a bit. Kelly seems to be more able to create his shots solely off the dribble.
* I'd flash Senior to the middle for 10-15 foot shots which he seems pretty good at. If he's covered, he can go to the basket or outlet to an open man on the perimeter. Senior also has to help Kastel inside defensively.
* Again, using their speed, I'd like to see Kelly, Herth, and Sykes use their 1st step quickness to try and beat their defender to the basket. Should they not be able to do so, they should still put the ball on the floor and do what I call a "Steve D" move---get their defender backing up and go right into him, drawing a foul and getting to the line.
* Again using their quickness, get through the IWU screens and stay close to their man, not giving IWU open looks after they receive a pass.
* Value each possession. Play with a sense of urgency while not turning the ball over.

All easier said than done.