MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Mr. Ypsi]

Pat: I'm just using the same logic that the Carthage Sports Information office uses. According to their program for the IWU game,
and I quote the lead headline: No. 44 Carthage Plays Host to No. 4 Illinois Wesleyan

I am aware of what they do but that doesn't make it right. You can't actually be No. 44 in a Top 25. And the statistics prof who follows your post should know that.

Actually, the statistics prof (retired, thank God!) knows that you can have the 44th most votes in a Top 25 poll.  Whether or not that makes you #44, or just a team among the ORV's who got more points than all but 43 other teams in the d3 universe, is (to me) just a silly quibble.

[bopol]

Pat: I'm just using the same logic that the Carthage Sports Information office uses. According to their program for the IWU game,
and I quote the lead headline: No. 44 Carthage Plays Host to No. 4 Illinois Wesleyan

I am aware of what they do but that doesn't make it right. You can't actually be No. 44 in a Top 25. And the statistics prof who follows your post should know that.

Well, let's not pretend that a Top 25 made from a poll of a lot of people that can't possibly see 400+ teams play is much more meaningful beyond top 3, top 10 and kind of top 40 or so.

So, can we agree on kind of top 40 Carthage takes on Top 10 IWU? 

[Pat Coleman]

Pat: I'm just using the same logic that the Carthage Sports Information office uses. According to their program for the IWU game,
and I quote the lead headline: No. 44 Carthage Plays Host to No. 4 Illinois Wesleyan

I am aware of what they do but that doesn't make it right. You can't actually be No. 44 in a Top 25. And the statistics prof who follows your post should know that.

Actually, the statistics prof (retired, thank God!) knows that you can have the 44th most votes in a Top 25 poll.  Whether or not that makes you #44, or just a team among the ORV's who got more points than all but 43 other teams in the d3 universe, is (to me) just a silly quibble.

So the other 360 teams are tied for what, exactly?

[bopol]

Pat: I'm just using the same logic that the Carthage Sports Information office uses. According to their program for the IWU game,
and I quote the lead headline: No. 44 Carthage Plays Host to No. 4 Illinois Wesleyan

I am aware of what they do but that doesn't make it right. You can't actually be No. 44 in a Top 25. And the statistics prof who follows your post should know that.

Actually, the statistics prof (retired, thank God!) knows that you can have the 44th most votes in a Top 25 poll.  Whether or not that makes you #44, or just a team among the ORV's who got more points than all but 43 other teams in the d3 universe, is (to me) just a silly quibble.

So the other 360 teams are tied for what, exactly?

Last.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Pat: I'm just using the same logic that the Carthage Sports Information office uses. According to their program for the IWU game,
and I quote the lead headline: No. 44 Carthage Plays Host to No. 4 Illinois Wesleyan

I am aware of what they do but that doesn't make it right. You can't actually be No. 44 in a Top 25. And the statistics prof who follows your post should know that.

Actually, the statistics prof (retired, thank God!) knows that you can have the 44th most votes in a Top 25 poll.  Whether or not that makes you #44, or just a team among the ORV's who got more points than all but 43 other teams in the d3 universe, is (to me) just a silly quibble.

So the other 360 teams are tied for what, exactly?

They aren't tied for anything.  I think we can all still feel some are clearly better than others.  They just weren't good enough to make anyone's Top 25 ballot.  Just because NCC and Blackburn each received no votes doesn't mean virtually everyone wouldn't predict that NCC would crush Blackburn.

But among those who were good enough to make someone's ballot, we clearly can rank-order them by points received.  How we choose to label that rank-ordering is merely a matter of preference, not right or wrong.

[Pat Coleman]

I think my issue with it is that it's not statistically significant -- once you get that far down the list, you're talking about teams that appeared on less than a third of the ballots.

No individual ranked a team 44th.

[Mr. Ypsi]

I think my issue with it is that it's not statistically significant -- once you get that far down the list, you're talking about teams that appeared on less than a third of the ballots.

No individual ranked a team 44th.

Now this I can totally agree with.  But typically that is just as true with 21-25 as with (26)-(30).  (By (44th), you are generally talking about one or two voters.)  The cut-off at 25 is totally arbitrary, caused only because it is called the Top 25.

[And the week being talked about, I voted Carthage #44 on my private Top 50 list! ]

[carthage guy]

The Top 25 isnt the top 25 anyway... we have all seen over the years the cciw and wiac commonly have 5 teams that could realistically be top 25 teams....

I remember 1 year Carthage played then #1 u mass  dartmouth, i believe.... Carthage won the tourney game by 40.  Mass dartmouth wouldnt have finished in the top half of cciw. 

i see what everyone is saying about Carthage sid putting a number on orv... but lets also not pretend that the top 25 is anywhere near the best 25 teams in DivIII. 

[Mr. Ypsi]

The Top 25 isnt the top 25 anyway... we have all seen over the years the cciw and wiac commonly have 5 teams that could realistically be top 25 teams....

I remember 1 year Carthage played then #1 u mass  dartmouth, i believe.... Carthage won the tourney game by 40.  Mass dartmouth wouldnt have finished in the top half of cciw. 

i see what everyone is saying about Carthage sid putting a number on orv... but lets also not pretend that the top 25 is anywhere near the best 25 teams in DivIII.

I strongly disagree with the bolded statement.  The d3hoops.com Top 25 is 25 very well-informed voters giving their personal opinions on who are the best 25 teams in d3.  Naturally, they will not all agree, and naturally they will sometimes be way off the mark.  Nonetheless, it is no coincidence that the Final Four regularly has at least 3 teams who were ranked VERY high in the final pre-tournament poll.

BTW, I don't recall Mass-Dartmouth ever being in the top 25, much less #1.  And the last time a #1 ranked team lost in the tourney by 40+ is probably never.  (And I guarantee that no team ranked #1 would EVER finish in the bottom half of the CCIW [or WIAC].)

[iwu70]

All you rankers and pollsters are just so clever with words and statistics.  I rank you'all #1 wordsmiths.  Jolly good. 

Now, about basketball on the court, does anyone know who on the MU Big Blue might actually be available, prepared, well enough or coach-approved to play @The Shirk tonight?  A scouting report would be most appreciated.  Sounds the Big Blue are "reeling" and short-handed, according to Pgraph reportage.  Also, that Mike Mayberger has had some back issues and wasn't at full strength for the last game at Carthage.  Shall we see more of Herr Zimmmer?   A curious mind wishes to know.  (Nice separate piece in the Pgraph today on Mssr. Victor Davis and his distinguished "rock on the block" career at IWU.  Vic is a great guy, always with a smile on his face and fierce competitiveness in his heart, always bleeding Green). 

Important run of home games for the Titans -- with a strong need for 4-0 in the coming home stand.

********

Hong Kong starting to exhale, to relax and prepare for the Horse Year celebrations starting tomorrow evening, Horse Year New Year's eve -- the Lunar New Year festival, with all big family reunions and feasts.  Wishing all my D3 chatster friends and comrades a most Happy Horse Year -- may yours be filled with happiness, prosperity and good health -- and true Springtime and warmer climes soon.

Kung Hey Fat Choi!

IWU70
on the far side

[John Gleich]

Pat: I'm just using the same logic that the Carthage Sports Information office uses. According to their program for the IWU game,
and I quote the lead headline: No. 44 Carthage Plays Host to No. 4 Illinois Wesleyan

I am aware of what they do but that doesn't make it right. You can't actually be No. 44 in a Top 25. And the statistics prof who follows your post should know that.

He always gives 110% when defending the idea though...

[John Gleich]

The Top 25 isnt the top 25 anyway... we have all seen over the years the cciw and wiac commonly have 5 teams that could realistically be top 25 teams....

I remember 1 year Carthage played then #1 u mass  dartmouth, i believe.... Carthage won the tourney game by 40.  Mass dartmouth wouldnt have finished in the top half of cciw. 

i see what everyone is saying about Carthage sid putting a number on orv... but lets also not pretend that the top 25 is anywhere near the best 25 teams in DivIII.

I strongly disagree with the bolded statement.  The d3hoops.com Top 25 is 25 very well-informed voters giving their personal opinions on who are the best 25 teams in d3.  Naturally, they will not all agree, and naturally they will sometimes be way off the mark.  Nonetheless, it is no coincidence that the Final Four regularly has at least 3 teams who were ranked VERY high in the final pre-tournament poll.

BTW, I don't recall Mass-Dartmouth ever being in the top 25, much less #1.  And the last time a #1 ranked team lost in the tourney by 40+ is probably never.  (And I guarantee that no team ranked #1 would EVER finish in the bottom half of the CCIW [or WIAC].)

UMass Dartmouth started 2008 off 19-0. They got up as high as #2. They ended the year at 25-4 and #20.
They were ranked as high as 14th in 2009

Carthage didn't play them either of those years.

Carthage was ranked #1 for much of the 01-02 season, but it doesn't appear that they would have played UM-D that season (the archives don't go back that far yet)... maybe the year or two before when Carthage was dancing?

[kiko]

The Top 25 isnt the top 25 anyway... we have all seen over the years the cciw and wiac commonly have 5 teams that could realistically be top 25 teams....

I remember 1 year Carthage played then #1 u mass  dartmouth, i believe.... Carthage won the tourney game by 40.  Mass dartmouth wouldnt have finished in the top half of cciw. 

i see what everyone is saying about Carthage sid putting a number on orv... but lets also not pretend that the top 25 is anywhere near the best 25 teams in DivIII.

I strongly disagree with the bolded statement.  The d3hoops.com Top 25 is 25 very well-informed voters giving their personal opinions on who are the best 25 teams in d3.  Naturally, they will not all agree, and naturally they will sometimes be way off the mark.  Nonetheless, it is no coincidence that the Final Four regularly has at least 3 teams who were ranked VERY high in the final pre-tournament poll.

BTW, I don't recall Mass-Dartmouth ever being in the top 25, much less #1.  And the last time a #1 ranked team lost in the tourney by 40+ is probably never.  (And I guarantee that no team ranked #1 would EVER finish in the bottom half of the CCIW [or WIAC].)

From this site:
http://www.corsairathletics.com/information/hall_of_fame/time_line

<snip>

2001 -  The UMass Dartmouth men's basketball team returned to the national stage of NCAA Division III basketball as Coach Brian Baptiste's team led the nation in victories following a 25-3 season.  Ranked as high as #2 in some national polls, the Corsairs finished with a Little East Conference regular season and tournament championship.  In the post season, the Corsairs added an impressive second round NCAA Tournament victory and a berth in the Sweet 16.  The Corsairs were the top-ranked team in New England after defeating Salem State, 86-64, in an NCAA tournament game before Carthage College eliminated UMass Dartmouth from the tournament.

</snip>

The score that they are not mentioning for that sweet sixteen game was 90-41.  UMD had been all hat and little cattle coming into the game, and I recall someone on the board -- I don't remember who -- being sure to point out in the days that followed that Carthage wasn't even the best team in their conference that season.  (And it was the third place team, IWU, that reached the final four as Carthage fell by two to Ohio Northern in the next round.)

I'm not sure which poll had Mass-Dartmouth ranked second as the d3hoops archives currently only go back to the year after this game was played.

[iwu70]

"all hat and little cattle."  Kiko, you are the man.  I don't think I'd want to recollect that score, that game vs. Carthage in the Sweet Sixteen either!  Nothing like a little history and fun to spice up the page.  Those were some strong strong Carthage teams.  Remember them well. 

Sure hope my Titans get everything firing on all cylinders tonight vs. the Big Blue.  Titans need to get on a roll and start peaking for the stretch run, the run to the CCIW tournament and the national D3 dance -- if at all possible.  Hopefully some "home cook'in" will do the trick.

IWU70

[Titan Q]

Illinois Wesleyan (15-3, 5-2) vs Millikin (7-11, 1-6) - 7:00pm

Illinois Wesleyan (15-3, 5-2)
G - Dylan Overstreet, 6-3/180 Jr (9.2 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 4.1 apg)
G - Pat Sodemann, 6-3/195 Jr (10.3 ppg, 2.1 rpg, 1.7 apg)
F - Andrew Ziemnik, 6-5/220 Sr (14.3 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 2.1 apg)
F - Victor Davis, 6-5/235 Sr (11.9 ppg, 6.6 rpg)
C - Mike Marietti, 6-8/245 So (3.4 ppg, 2.0 rpg)

F - Mike Mayberger, 6-6/205 Sr (8.7 ppg, 3.4 rpg)
G - Jordan Nelson, 6-1/170 Jr (8.2 ppg)
G - Bryce Dolan, 6-0/160 So (5.9 ppg)
C - Nick Anderson, 6-10/230 Sr (4.8 ppg, 2.8 rpg)
F - Eric Dortch, 6-4/210 Sr (4.6 ppg, 3.8 rpg)


Millikin (7-11, 1-6)
G - TJ Griffin, 5-9/185 So (18.9 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 2.2 apg)
G - Tives Gardner, 6-0/165 So (11.7 ppg, 2.6 rpg, 2.5 apg)
F - Jacob Kueker, 6-5/175 So (8.7 ppg, 2.9 rpg)
F - Deavis Johnson, 6-7/210 So (11.5 ppg, 9.1 rpg)
F - Bryn Agnew, 6-8/200 Fr (1.8 ppg, 2.2 rpg)

G - Parker Day, 6-0/190 So (2.4 ppg)
F - Elijah Kinmon, 6-5/190 So (4.1 ppg)
G - Brennan Coltrane, 5-11/160 So (1.0 ppg)


Pantagraph - http://www.pantagraph.com/sports/college/basketball/men/iwu-set-to-host-reeling-big-blue/article_e73d03d6-888e-11e3-8fba-001a4bcf887a.html

WJBC radio - http://client.stretchinternet.com/client/wjbc.portal#

Live video/stats - http://client.stretchinternet.com/client/iwu.portal#