MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Mr. Ypsi]

Maybe his verbal commitment was in sign language.  You would all owe that journalist a huge apology.

+k

But Elmhurst ain't Gaulladet.

[bbfan44]

Thanks for the response on the "signing" issue.  I guess I did know much of what you explained, but figured the writer was just trying to make a big deal out of a kid in his area going away to play for a college that wanted him, and over looked his faux pas.
It is interesting that some schools won't announce until they get some money from the parents.

[GoPerry]

bbfan44----

Perhaps Professor Sager or another of our learned posters might care to elaborate a bit, but basically there is no letter of intent in D3.

You don't sign anything, certainly not any standardized form. Commitments in D3 are verbal in nature. Also, unlike D1, the verbal commitment is non-binding. You can verbally commit to one school on day, and to another the next day. There is no penalty for changing your mind.   

Furthermore "signings" are usually nowhere near the elaborate affair portrayed in the article ("signed his letter of intent to play basketball (at EC) Thursday night in front of a large contingent of family, friends, and coaches.") Aside from not signing anything, D3 commitments are usually simply made by means of a recruit calling the head coach and advising him he has chosen the coach's school. Furthermore, many schools don't make an announcement of the "commitment" until after a tuition deposit has been received.

Lastly, a coach can never be 100% sure he is getting a kid until the kid shows up at the first day of official practice in October.

My guess is that this was a signing event put on by his high school.  Our HS (large west suburban chicago) does a similar thing with all our athletes who are signing with D1 or D2 schools and they always include those athletes who have committed to continue playing at D3 schools as well.  Parents, coaches, local press, other guests are always invited to attend and it is a nice way for the athletics dept to celebrate their senior athletes who will be continuing their careers at the next level, whatever level that may be.

[bbfan44]

GoPerry, I like that !  It's a great idea. 

"Professor" Sager, are you ok with that?

[realist]

bbfan44----

Perhaps Professor Sager or another of our learned posters might care to elaborate a bit, but basically there is no letter of intent in D3.

You don't sign anything, certainly not any standardized form. Commitments in D3 are verbal in nature. Also, unlike D1, the verbal commitment is non-binding. You can verbally commit to one school on day, and to another the next day. There is no penalty for changing your mind.   

Furthermore "signings" are usually nowhere near the elaborate affair portrayed in the article ("signed his letter of intent to play basketball (at EC) Thursday night in front of a large contingent of family, friends, and coaches.") Aside from not signing anything, D3 commitments are usually simply made by means of a recruit calling the head coach and advising him he has chosen the coach's school. Furthermore, many schools don't make an announcement of the "commitment" until after a tuition deposit has been received.

Lastly, a coach can never be 100% sure he is getting a kid until the kid shows up at the first day of official practice in October.

Precisely.

A lot of small-town journalists, especially, seem to be under the impression that D3 is no different than the other divisions and/or organizations that operate intercollegiate athletics. D1 schools have official signing ceremonies, and D2 schools have official signing ceremonies, and NAIA has official signing ceremonies ... so D3 must have them, too, right?

I don't expect every journalist in America to be aware of the fact that D3 student-athletes never sign actual letters of intent to play sports at their respective D3 colleges. Nor do I expect every journalist to know that D3 student-athletes are under no obligation whatsoever to play sports in college, that it's a "play for the love of the game" situation in which a student is free to choose not to play even if he or she was recruited specifically to participate in a particular sport or sports. But I do think that sportswriters should be aware of these things -- and that includes sportswriters in rural downstate Illinois, where it's not exactly unheard-of for a local high-school athlete to choose to continue playing his or her sport at a D3 college.

GS:  As usual you are 100% correct.  Having spent some time in TX the past few weeks it amuses me when glancing at the local sports pages/broadcast to see write ups/video on a "D3 signing day".  It seems down there that the journalists aren't the only ones that don't know D3 policy.  It seems the D3 schools that are the beneficiaries of these "signings" are more than happy to go along with perpetuating  the "signing" myth, and one wonders what the document with a school name and logo really contains.
To paraphrase our current V.P:  "in TX: even a D3 signing is a B. F. D."

[badgerwarhawk]

Greg, while DIII doesn't officially have a committment document that recruits sign similar to those used in DI and DII programs is there any rule or NCAA policy that would prohibit a school from developing one if they chose.  I realize it wouldn't be binding like the others but lets say a school wanted to use one for publicity sake or some other reason is there anything offical that would prohibit it? 

[Pat Coleman]

Believe there is an NCAA rule that discourages this, yes. There's been a little bit of discussion in the past few months about making a change and perhaps allowing some kind of non-binding announcement ceremony.

[Player#50]

I have read a lot of posts over the last few years and have been shocked by the lack of respect and accuracy on players of years gone by.  In particular, the 1960's and 1970's would have to be considered the heyday of the conference.  Now to hear some tell it, basketball talent today in the CCIW is great.  While it has some talented players, players of that era in the NAIA had many more options as far as ability to go play at other schools.  Just go up and down the scoring and rebounding records of the CCIW to see the tremendous talent that was playing during that time.  In 1973 there were 4 players 6'10" and better.  Laing, Hamming Gobczynski and Sikma.  All 4 were All Americans and either played professionally or were drafted by the NBA.  Some of you old timers might remember another All American in Thompson from North Park who played in the late 70's.  No time to mention MANY other GREAT players of that era.  No 3 pointers, no 120 game careers, just hard nosed basketball with talented players.  Could they play today?  Don't you doubt it!

[realist]

video of Carroll H.S. football player Corpus Christi TX "signing" to play at UMHB:

http://www.kztv10.com/videos/hs-football-phillip-franco-signs-with-mary-hardin-baylor/

Natioinal signing day is big in TX.  The following are seniors at various H. S.'s in Humble TX ISD just outside Houston.

http://www.humbleisd.net/cms/lib2/TX01001414/Centricity/Domain/1/AthleteSigningDay2014.pdf

If the NCAA discourages this practice it obviously isn't working.

[Gregory Sager]

Maybe his verbal commitment was in sign language.  You would all owe that journalist a huge apology.

[Pat Coleman]

video of Carroll H.S. football player Corpus Christi TX "signing" to play at UMHB:

http://www.kztv10.com/videos/hs-football-phillip-franco-signs-with-mary-hardin-baylor/

Natioinal signing day is big in TX.  The following are seniors at various H. S.'s in Humble TX ISD just outside Houston.

http://www.humbleisd.net/cms/lib2/TX01001414/Centricity/Domain/1/AthleteSigningDay2014.pdf

If the NCAA discourages this practice it obviously isn't working.

The NCAA can do all it wants but it doesn't stop a high school from doing its thing.

[Pat Coleman]

I have read a lot of posts over the last few years and have been shocked by the lack of respect and accuracy on players of years gone by.  In particular, the 1960's and 1970's would have to be considered the heyday of the conference.  Now to hear some tell it, basketball talent today in the CCIW is great.  While it has some talented players, players of that era in the NAIA had many more options as far as ability to go play at other schools.  Just go up and down the scoring and rebounding records of the CCIW to see the tremendous talent that was playing during that time.  In 1973 there were 4 players 6'10" and better.  Laing, Hamming Gobczynski and Sikma.  All 4 were All Americans and either played professionally or were drafted by the NBA.  Some of you old timers might remember another All American in Thompson from North Park who played in the late 70's.  No time to mention MANY other GREAT players of that era.  No 3 pointers, no 120 game careers, just hard nosed basketball with talented players.  Could they play today?  Don't you doubt it!

Welcome to the board. Moved you here into the CCIW board.

[Gregory Sager]

Thanks for the response on the "signing" issue.  I guess I did know much of what you explained, but figured the writer was just trying to make a big deal out of a kid in his area going away to play for a college that wanted him, and over looked his faux pas.
It is interesting that some schools won't announce until they get some money from the parents.

I try not to disclose a North Park recruit's name unless I know that he or she has made a tuition deposit. Last year another (non-NPU fan) poster announced on CCIW Chat that JayQuan Lee was enrolling at North Park, an announcement that I had held off on making because his family had not yet put down a deposit. You'd be surprised at how many kids make a verbal commitment and then never follow through on it by putting down some money to secure a spot.

GoPerry, I like that !  It's a great idea. 

"Professor" Sager, are you ok with that?

I like the thought of a high school holding some sort of ceremony to honor all of the senior athletes who have chosen to continue playing sports in college. After all, there is no substantive difference in athletic terms between what the D3 recruits are going to do in college and what the scholarship recruits are going to do. But why does the ceremony have to involve senior athletes signing things? It's deceptive to have the D3 kids ape how the D1, D2, and NAIA kids mark their commitment occasion by signing a blank piece of paper. Sure, it may make them feel good because they're not being singled out as being inferior to their scholie brethren in a ceremony that revolves around signing, but we're talking about the D3 brand here. Our brand is that you don't sign anything, because what the scholie kids are signing are legal contracts that bind them to their respective schools and legally require them to play sports in order to receive their scholarship money. Our brand is that you're essentially no different than any other student at your school if you're a D3 student-athlete; if you wear your school's uniform in an intercollegiate athletic event, you're doing it of your own free choice and without any compensation whatsoever.

Signing that blank piece of paper disrespects our brand, which is why (I suspect) the NCAA rule that Pat mentioned is in place.

GS:  As usual you are 100% correct.  Having spent some time in TX the past few weeks it amuses me when glancing at the local sports pages/broadcast to see write ups/video on a "D3 signing day".  It seems down there that the journalists aren't the only ones that don't know D3 policy.  It seems the D3 schools that are the beneficiaries of these "signings" are more than happy to go along with perpetuating  the "signing" myth, and one wonders what the document with a school name and logo really contains.
To paraphrase our current V.P:  "in TX: even a D3 signing is a B. F. D."

video of Carroll H.S. football player Corpus Christi TX "signing" to play at UMHB:

http://www.kztv10.com/videos/hs-football-phillip-franco-signs-with-mary-hardin-baylor/

Natioinal signing day is big in TX.  The following are seniors at various H. S.'s in Humble TX ISD just outside Houston.

http://www.humbleisd.net/cms/lib2/TX01001414/Centricity/Domain/1/AthleteSigningDay2014.pdf

If the NCAA discourages this practice it obviously isn't working.

I think that some of this might be regionally oriented as well. I remember when former Millikin head coach Marc Smith recruited Matt Merrigan to play for the Big Blue back in the spring of 2010. Merrigan was from Tennessee, and there was a "signing" announcement in his local paper that came complete with a pic of the kid signing a piece of paper with his beaming parents and Marc Smith hovering over his shoulders in the standard signing pose. I commented on CCIW Chat at the time that Merrigan was from a part of Tennessee that didn't have a lot of D3 schools nearby, so perhaps either the newspaper in question wasn't familiar with D3 policy or Merrigan and/or his folks wanted to have some sort of ceremony like that of all of his local peers who were going off to play for nearby NAIA schools. Given the fact that Texas is a massive state (both in terms of size and population) that has a long-standing NAIA tradition, as well as D1 and D2, with a relatively limited and recent D3 footprint, this, too, might've been a situation in which the locals down there just aren't aware of how D3 does things. Or, as realist implies, the D3 schools in Texas don't want to raise the awareness of the local media with regard to D3's rules, 'cuz it's a "when in Rome, do what the Romans do" mentality.

[Gregory Sager]

I have read a lot of posts over the last few years and have been shocked by the lack of respect and accuracy on players of years gone by.  In particular, the 1960's and 1970's would have to be considered the heyday of the conference.  Now to hear some tell it, basketball talent today in the CCIW is great.  While it has some talented players, players of that era in the NAIA had many more options as far as ability to go play at other schools.  Just go up and down the scoring and rebounding records of the CCIW to see the tremendous talent that was playing during that time.  In 1973 there were 4 players 6'10" and better.  Laing, Hamming Gobczynski and Sikma.  All 4 were All Americans and either played professionally or were drafted by the NBA.  Some of you old timers might remember another All American in Thompson from North Park who played in the late 70's.  No time to mention MANY other GREAT players of that era.  No 3 pointers, no 120 game careers, just hard nosed basketball with talented players.  Could they play today?  Don't you doubt it!

1. Just kidding. Welcome to the board, Player#50.

2. I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about with regard to "the lack of respect and accuracy on players of years gone by." If anything, the exact opposite is the case here. Posters who were not alive during the heyday of players such as Bill Warden at NCC or Mel Peterson at Wheaton have oohed and aahed over their accomplishments here on CCIW Chat. Names like Jesse Price of Millikin and John Butler of Carthage come up here on a regular basis. Heck, just yesterday Lanny (veterancciwfan) was going on about some small-town player who apparently starred for Southern Illinois and faced off against Dennis Bridges of Illinois Wesleyan -- Dennis Bridges as a player, that is -- in some game that must've been played shortly after the Earth cooled.

You may have missed this particular conversation, but Bob (Titan Q) and I and a few others in this room had a thread a few months back about comparing contemporary CCIW players to those of bygone eras. We agreed that this league does not, by and large, draw players of quite the same quality as used to be the case, because the proliferation of D1 and D2 programs now as compared to years past has cut into the talent pool in such a way that players of the type who were once recruited by CCIW schools as stars in the making now get plenty of D2 and/or mid-major D1 offers, and CCIW schools therefore never get a sniff at them. While there are exceptions, that's pretty much the rule now. In other words, again, this room's regulars are generally in agreement with you that the league had better talent back in the silk-short-shorts-with-belts era. And it's the young whippersnappers like Bob who're saying that, not the wizened ancients among us.

We're really happy you're here, and we welcome your contributions to the board, but my advice is to keep your rants logical.

3. Your reference to 1973 is a little deceiving. John Laing of Augustana and Jack Sikma of Illinois Wesleyan were not contemporaries. Laing's last season for Augie was 1972-73, and Jack Sikma began his career at IWU as a freshman in 1973-74.

4. I don't know who the heck you're talking about in this reference:

Some of you old timers might remember another All American in Thompson from North Park who played in the late 70's.

I don't know if I qualify as an old-timer, but I can say with absolute certainty that NPU has never had an All-American basketball player named Thompson, much less one who played in the late '70s. To the best of my knowledge, the only basketball players North Park's ever had who were named Thompson were Lyndsey Thompson and Deima Thompson (not related), both C'11, who played on the NPU women's basketball team.

[Gregory Sager]

Speaking of Millikin coaches, congrats to TJ Caughell on his promotion.