MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Gregory Sager]

I don't know how many times it has happened in prior years - but this year's CCIW tourney provides a "Third Time is a Charm"

Ya know, the old adage is "it's hard to beat a team 3 times."

Anybody who read the NCAC room today knows how much I hate that cliche. It's right up there with calling non-conference games "preseason" on my list of pet peeves. That saying is just a string of empty words that people recite because it somehow sounds profound. As you said, PS, I think that matchups and adjustments mean a whole lot more to the question of who will win a third game after a regular-season home-and-home sweep than does that vacuous cliche.

Illinois Wesleyan lost to Augie by only three points the first time around, and took them into overtime before losing the second time. There's very little daylight between the two teams in terms of how good they are. If the Titans prevail on Friday it'll be because they made the adjustments, played harder, and are just plain good enough to beat Augustana. It'll have nothing to do with that old "it's hard to beat a team three times" adage.

And did you notice that nobody was quoting that adage before tonight's Kenyon @ Wooster game, or the UWEC @ UWW game? I wonder why. 

[John Gleich]

And did you notice that nobody was quoting that adage before tonight's ... UWEC @ UWW game?

At the Point game tonight, I talked about this specific game with a few fans... and the concensus was that Eau Claire had their shot on Saturday night and couldn't pull it out.  The drubbing they recieved tonight was a chrystal clear announcement by the Warhawks that Saturday night's double OT game where Whitewater was on the ropes was a fluke (whether it actually was, or not!)

Ironically, tonight I did mention the River Falls/Platteville game from two years ago... It wasn't the same #8 vs. #1 that the EC/WW was tonight... but Platteville played River Falls to an overtime game the week before the tournament and then was able to finish them off, winning "the one that counts" in a second round #4/#1 matchup that denied conference champ RF and POY Rich Melzer a chance at a bid to the NCAA tournament.

[John Gleich]

...it comes down to whether or not Trost did everything within his power to schedule more in-region games, and only Trost himself knows that for sure. I'm certainly willing to take it on faith that his hands were tied if that's what the Wesleyan people are claiming.

... I know I'm perhaps a broken record, because all I seem to talk about is the WIAC... and this isn't the WIAC board... but realize that I can only speak of what I know... and I know the WIAC.

Also, I enjoy this board immensely, having grown up a scant 5 minutes from the Wheaton College campus and attending a church with the word "College" in it... and I find the discussion lively, entertaining, and educational.

Ok, for some reason I felt the need to qualify this post with the above... maybe it's the late nights grating on my conscience for hijacking the board after most of the sensible posters have gone to bed... but...

I, as a former WIAC player and now fan, can certainly empathize with this notion of not being able to schedule games.  In a conversation with new UWSP coach Bob Semling regarding the schedule, he said that they had had quite a bit of trouble filling out the full slate, and so they were being forced to fill it with even more NAIA schools than usual (UWSP plays Viterbo annually, sometimes even more often than that).  Point actually ended up with 5 in-region (or 200 mile radius) opponents and 3 NAIA schools.  The problem is (or was, before this season) that UWSP hadn't lost a non-conference game in 5 years.  It's gotta be hard to answer that phone, with Coach Bennett on the other line, and honestly say that you look FORWARD to playing the Pointers...

My main point for posting all of this isn't so much that in-region, non-conference opponents are hard to find... because, in all honesty, they are for the more dominant (at least in the non-conference) teams and conferences.  My point is that the logistics of playing even some of these in-region games are rather difficult.  I'm not even going to talk about the extreme West region teams, where it's obvious that a bus trip to Cali, Oregon, Nebraska, or Washington just isn't feasible.  I'm talking about games such as Iowa, where you'd be on a bus for 7-8 hours.  We went to Coe my first year @ Point... and we went the night before and stayed in a hotel room.  We were much more ready to play after a good night's sleep... but the program can only afford one of those trips a year.  If the schedule can't be filled up by the local LMC teams, then you've gotta schedule SOMEONE.

In talking to the UWSP coaches, there are certain teams and or conferences who flat out say they aren't interested in a game, because they don't like their chances.  They don't see the game as being anything close to a positive for their program.  

I don't know if the CCIW is necessarily in the situation that I mentioned above (the in-region opponents aren't really right next door).  But there are other schools/conferences such as the aforementioned Nebraska Wesleyan and the MIAA, that don't have too many teams a few hours away.  Add this, now, to the fact that games are hard to come by, even amongst the teams that would "count" on your record, and it really places a burden upon teams who are just trying to put themselves in a position to succeed in a very competitive conference.

[Gregory Sager]

Ok, for some reason I felt the need to qualify this post with the above... maybe it's the late nights grating on my conscience for hijacking the board after most of the sensible posters have gone to bed

Given who is usually on CCIW Chat at this hour, there are some who would say that all of the sensible posters have gone to bed.   

I don't know if the CCIW is necessarily in the situation that I mentioned above (the in-region opponents aren't really right next door).  But there are other schools/conferences such as the aforementioned Nebraska Wesleyan and the MIAA, that don't have too many teams a few hours away.  Add this, now, to the fact that games are hard to come by, even amongst the teams that would "count" on your record, and it really places a burden upon teams who are just trying to put themselves in a position to succeed in a very competitive conference.

I think that you can only get better if you play better teams. I've never liked weak schedules that were put together just for the chance to get an extra win or three. What good will that do you in the end when you have to run the gauntlet of a tough league in January and February? And if your league isn't that tough, you'll be that much better prepared to dominate your league rivals if you've played better comp in November and December than they did.

I'm not alone in thinking this. For several years during the Rees Johnson era, NPU players would tell me that they didn't feel that they were prepared enough for the rigors of CCIW play by the lightweight non-con schedule the coach had arranged for them. They'd do well before Christmas break -- and then come back from break and get hammered in CCIW play.

I would chain myself to the front door of the crackerbox and go on a hunger strike if Paul Brenegan ever told me that he was afraid to schedule an in-region game against Hope and/or Calvin.

[John Gleich]

It's interesting, because I can see what, at 1:30 am, seems like a valid argument for either side.

On one side, like you said, a tough non-con skid gets you ready for your tough conference games.  I think, historically, IWU has shown this to be the case, as they've been tested through their non-con games, and seem to be more prepared for the "big game" against a conference foe.  I think that teams who have an inflated record against non-conference opponents who are sub-par "rest on their laurels," as Coach Bennett used to say... like your NPU example... they rely on the fact that they dominated teams like Milwaukee School of the Blind (no disrespect... I hear they've got a decent squad this season) to have the experience to carry them through in the tough games, and the well simply runs dry.

However, part of me thinks that, if your conference is tough enough, why put yourself in the position to not do as well as you possibly can?  What I mean by this, is why put yourself in harms way by scheduling excellent opponents, and ultimately giving your team the chance to get a loss, which could hurt you down the road?  Now, I'm not saying that this is the road I would be on...  The person who follows this line of thinking appears weak and scared, and that's not someone I'd want on my team's bench.

But with a playoff system that, as least in the past, really began to appear to have some of the negative traits of college football's BCS (when you get X number of losses, you simply have no shot), especially when a certain number of regular season, in-conference losses are essentially guaranteed, why give yourself only one out by way of the conference's AQ via a conference tourney...?

Another potential negative I can see from playing as tough a non-conference schedule as possible is the endurence factor... a team can run out of juice if they are pressed to a breaking point.  This happens to young teams more often than not... but that brings me to another similar point... when you've got a young, talented team, an early loss can destroy their confidence and may lead to losses in the future that (theoretically)WOULDN'T have happened if the loss had never occurred.

Personally, I pitch my tent in the camp that says that losses, while not being positives in and of themselves, if treated in the right way can lead to a much greater positive that propels a team to a place higher than they were to begin with.  Both of our National Championship runs are Point were precluded by a final-game-of-the-regular-season loss that cost us our 5th straight conference title and cost us the outright title the next year.  Yet we persevered, and reached even loftier goals.


It's official.  I'm rambling, it's time for me to go to bed.  I'll leave you with this:  I'm not sure that the toughest possible non-conference schedule is a necessary, or sufficient condition for preparing a team for a tough conference slate.  Year in and year out, the WIAC plays its share of really good competition and competition that is rather lacking.  This year, Oshkosh played Lawrence, Carroll, and Wartburg, some of the best competition close to Oshkosh or in their region.  But it isn't clear to me that this experience helped the Titans.  While they won 12/13 games in late December and January, they lost 5 of their last 7, while in the middle of a conference race they were leading, in some of the biggest games of the year.  For a team that was as highly touted as Oshkosh (though, truth be told, they weren't even the highest touted team with their mascot  ) to finish as poorly as they did seems to me to be less of a testiment that these tough games helped them, and more that they were a hindrance.

[Gregory Sager]

Yeah, but do we really know that those tough non-conference games hindered UWO? Or is it possible that that team had issues that had nothing to do with the non-con games? It seems to me that it would be a hard thing to prove either way without the direct input of any of the Titans, or of Ted Van Dellen or his assistants.

You make a lot of sound points in both directions, PS. We've certainly discussed non-con scheduling often enough on CCIW Chat over the years. I've seen both sides of the matter. I see Illinois Wesleyan do well almost every year in CCIW play after playing the toughest non-con sked in the league, and I've seen North Park have phenomenally successful years in which Bosko Djurickovic couldn't (or wouldn't) get good non-con comp to face the Vikings in November and December.

What sold me for good on the idea that tougher is better is when I started talking to players about which scheduling style they preferred, and which they felt better prepared them for the conference slate. Heck, a couple of them even volunteered their thoughts to me in that regard without me asking them first.

Come to think of it, I'd like to open up this question to the ex-players who post here, guys like Rob Berki, Mike Thomas, Jim Oboikowich, Ryan Knuppel, Jason Wiertel, Theo Powell, etc. Any and every ex-player from this league who cares to chime in. Heck, I wanna hear from Todd Kelly if he's still around.  I think that this is an interesting question that could really benefit from the insight of former CCIW players. What scheduling style was better for you as a player and as a team? What serves the best interests of a CCIW team: Playing tough non-conference games, playing easy non-conference games, or a mixture of both?

[Gregory Sager]

This article is a must-read for all CCIW fans. It's a rare feature piece on two of the league's teams by the Trib:

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/college/cs-060221collegedthree,1,839705,print.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

Anytime that the Colonel's Rag pays this much attention to D3, and especially to our league, it's worth noticing.

[joehakes]

The problems with scheduling that are being discussed here are very real.  It is difficult to schedule teams that don't want to get embarassed, travel, or play for whatever excuse they may have.  Greg is right when he talks about the difficulty North Park had in the late 80's and before with getting teams to come to the Crackerbox to play.

The in-region concept, in some way, was supposed to help the situation by "forcing" teams to play against in-region opponents.  It would be interesting to see if most team actually play more in-region games than they did a few years ago.

Rest assured that each of the sport committees is trying to find a magic formula that will work as a compromise between the current in-region set-up and having no restrictions at all.  If all DIII members were spread evenly across the country you could have a one-size-fits-all rule that would work.  Since that is not the case, it is going to take an Einstein to figure it all out.  I am not a great proponent of the 200 mile rule for the simple fact that going east and south, 198 miles of our radius is in the Atlantic Ocean.

BTW Greg, your snide remarks about the state of DIII basketball in the Northeast have not gone unnoticed.  Remember that we ARE the Hub of the Universe here.  And while I am on the subject, Gordon is 23-3 with 18 straight wins and the 13th QOWI in DIII.  I just thought that I would throw that in.

[rknuppel]

That is a great article.  Thanks for the link Greg.

As far as scheduling I'm not sure I have a real strong opinion on it.  You're kind of darned if you don't, darned if you do.  The fact is, you need to WIN games.  I look at this year and see that North Central has a much better shot at getting a pool C than Elmhurst does.  I would love to play the non-conference season over again, and switch schedules and see where we are at today.  But, if Elmhurst just finished one or two of those big time games (platteville, hope, etc.) they'd be in good shape.  I truly believe you need a few top 25 teams on your non-conference schedule just to prepare you for the conference.  But how many top teams?  That's a tough one!  Just my quick thoughts.

[Warren Thompson]

BTW Greg, your snide remarks about the state of DIII basketball in the Northeast have not gone unnoticed.  Remember that we ARE the Hub of the Universe here.  And while I am on the subject, Gordon is 23-3 with 18 straight wins and the 13th QOWI in DIII.  I just thought that I would throw that in.

If the Northeast is the "Hub of the Universe," is Sager's Chicagoland then the "Wheel"? Kindly advise ....

[Dennis_Prikkel]

Great Tribune article, thanks for the Link Greg.

* * * * *

To answer my own question about third time matchups.

CCIW teams have met for a third time in a season 10 times in NCAA tourney play.  Nine of those games were 'rubber' games after the teams split their CCIW season series.

In 1988 IWU beat MU three times.

* * * * *

MW

Interesting hi-jacking of the board this morning by a WIAC interloper and GS.

* * * * * *

But back to the CCIW....

If two teams from the CCIW were to advance to the NCAA D3 soiree this year and perhaps those two teams had already played each other three times, it is NOT inconceivable that they might be required to tango a fourth time early on in the 'Big Dance'.

[joehakes]

Chicago is the City that Works.  Boston is the City that Just Gets Paid.  I love Chicago, and I will always be from Chicago.  The arrogance of New Englanders is really funny....to a point.

But we can play some basketball up here.  (The meaning of that last sentence will depend on your inflection on the word "some.")

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Great article and I like that they didn't try to focus on the top teams, but picked a couple of good teams to highlight d3 and not just the level of talent of competition.  It's good to see we're getting for recognition.

[robberki]

I'll go ahead and answer your question Greg. I always preferred challenging but winnable games. I never thought it did much good to play a bunch of D1 teams or something similar, but I also had no interest in playing Mary Bradford School of the Blind. I think a suitable D3 schedule for my taste would include teams with winning records in their conference the previous year and one or two D2 teams.

[Elmhurst_Mom]

Great article GS---thanks for sharing that!  Did you go to sleep at all last night??

Will be a great weekend---Good Luck to all!