MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Mr. Ypsi]

d3hoops.com has named their pre-season men's AA teams - Augie's Hunter Hill (2nd team) is the only CCIW rep.  Is this a down year for the CCIW, or just for superstar players?

I think that preseason AA selections are pretty irrelevant, as far as gauging the overall strength of the league is concerned.

True - I'm just used to seeing 2-3 CCIW names on the lists.

The preseason poll is also pretty irrelevant, but it is nice to see the CCIW at #3, #4, and #18 (though the #4 is VERY suspect).

(Good grief, I just dissed my alma mater.   But with their graduation losses, I'm not sure the Titans are even top 25, much less #4.  That seems as suspect as Williams being ranked so high, when they lost probably the two best players in D3 by the end of the year - Michael Mayer who graduated, and Duncan Robinson who transferred to Michigan.)

[AndOne]

d3hoops.com has named their pre-season men's AA teams - Augie's Hunter Hill (2nd team) is the only CCIW rep.  Is this a down year for the CCIW, or just for superstar players?

I think that preseason AA selections are pretty irrelevant, as far as gauging the overall strength of the league is concerned.

True - I'm just used to seeing 2-3 CCIW names on the lists.

The preseason poll is also pretty irrelevant, but it is nice to see the CCIW at #3, #4, and #18 (though the #4 is VERY suspect).

(Good grief, I just dissed my alma mater.   But with their graduation losses, I'm not sure the Titans are even top 25, much less #4.  That seems as suspect as Williams being ranked so high, when they lost probably the two best players in D3 by the end of the year - Michael Mayer who graduated, and Duncan Robinson who transferred to Michigan.)

You bet the ranking of the #4 team is very suspect. Not even those with green blood can truthfully say their team deserves to be ranked that high. However the ranking of the #18 team is equally suspect, quite likely even more so. 

[AndOne]

Hunter Hill surely deserving.  I'm a bit surprised that Dylan Overstreet wasn't somewhere on that list.  Not saying he's first team or anything, but surely he deserves some pre-season props.  Looks like IWU will see one first team player from MSOE on the 25th, right?  Perhaps by the end of the year the list will look different.  I wouldn't be surprised to see Jordan Nelson on that list by year's end. 

Just a few days now, and the 2014-15 season begins.  Looking forward to it.

IWU70

70,

I would go so far as to say that, based on available information and past performance, Overstreet is AS deserving as Hill of PRE-season accolades.

However, Jordan Nelson is going to have to display more of an overall game before he will even begin to merit consideration. Most importantly, he will have to dramatically improve upon the 16 for 52 (30.8%) three point shooting performance he tallied in the CCIW and NCAA tournaments to end last season. And I dare say, he will have to keep his middle three digits and his saluting to himself. 

[Titan Q]

You bet the ranking of the #4 team is very suspect. Not even those with green blood can truthfully say their team deserves to be ranked that high.

Based on 2013-14 results and returning players for 2014-15 (typically the basis for preseason poll voting), which teams ranked lower than IWU do you feel should be ranked higher than the Titans?

The argument that IWU's ranking is suspect is really only credible if you identify the teams that should be ranked higher.

[WUPHF]

Based on 2013-14 results and returning players for 2014-15 (typically the basis for preseason poll voting), which teams ranked lower than IWU do you feel should be ranked higher than the Titans?

The argument that IWU's ranking is suspect is really only credible if you identify the teams that should be ranked higher.

Congratulation on 10,000 posts! Out of curiosity, have you adopted a Texas school to follow while living so far away from CCIW land?

Otherwise, I am looking forward to being in the stands for yet another regular season Titan upset this season. 

[iwu70]

AO, chill, my friend.  Seems Jordan Nelson has your goat.

Do agree with you that Dylan Overstreet, on the basis of his several years of top performance in the CCIW and NCAA tournament, is AS deserving as Hunter Hill.  Hill has done it to the Titans, though, several times.  A great player likely to have another outstanding year.  I am confident that Overstreet will be, over the course of the season, AS outstanding as Hill.  Perhaps more so.

On Nelson, he does play with gusto and bravado.  Get used to it.  He's a gun-slinger type of player and has a quick release, a quick temper.  He plays with a lot of emotion.  Don't think it's going to change.  Even if he gets T'd up once and again, I still like him on my side.  In fact, I think he has a better chance of being the truly big breakout player, scorer this year than either Hill or Overstreet.  Titans are going to be a guard, perimeter dominated team -- with solid work from Sodemann, Dolan, Nelms, Stempel and Rose, in addition to Overstreet and Nelson.  I'm also looking for a surprisingly strong year, in a very working class, in the trenches way, from Seibring.  We're hoping Marietti plays as well as the latter part of last season and that Coyle turns out to be the big surprise, as Ron Rose's comments (in Q's review) have indicated.  He sure played well in the G/W scrimmage last weekend.

Thanks, Q, for the good preview/review.  But, what?  No news of Musselman or Rossi?  Surely a rank omission.  At least you mentioned Heyen!  Just think how filled to the brim Ron Rose's perimeter cupboard would be if Eliud Gonzales returns to use his last season of eligibility! 

Let the games begin!

IWU70

[Gregory Sager]

Based on 2013-14 results and returning players for 2014-15 (typically the basis for preseason poll voting), which teams ranked lower than IWU do you feel should be ranked higher than the Titans?

The argument that IWU's ranking is suspect is really only credible if you identify the teams that should be ranked higher.

Congratulation on 10,000 posts! Out of curiosity, have you adopted a Texas school to follow while living so far away from CCIW land?

Seems a shame for Bob's sake that Texas Wesleyan University over in Ft. Worth has refused to dump the NAIA and come over to D3.

Congrats upon joining the rarefied air of the Five Digits Club, Bob! (In the case of most of its members, rarefied = hot.  )

[WUPHF]

Congrats upon joining the rarefied air of the Five Digits Club, Bob! (In the case of most of its members, rarefied = hot.  )

+1

[AndOne]

You bet the ranking of the #4 team is very suspect. Not even those with green blood can truthfully say their team deserves to be ranked that high.

Based on 2013-14 results and returning players for 2014-15 (typically the basis for preseason poll voting), which teams ranked lower than IWU do you feel should be ranked higher than the Titans?

The argument that IWU's ranking is suspect is really only credible if you identify the teams that should be ranked higher.

Unfortunately, that would require a detailed analysis of the top 10-15 ranked teams which I have neither the time nor inclination to delve into.

However, a team that does indeed have elite guard play potential, but pedestrian play out of the center position (the returning center averaged 5.0 ppg), and a vast dark hole at the forward spot(s) (no returning forward with more than a few minutes played all year), just does not have either the look or feel of a national #4 team.

Additionally, your statement that "IWU's ranking is suspect is really only credible if you identify the teams that should be ranked higher" is, in itself, rendered moot and negated by the fact that it seems you, yourself, agree with me about the suspect nature of the #4 national ranking as is confirmed by your own previous statement that "#4 seems too high to me too." Evidence of such can be found by your post on the Top 25 board on 10/26/16, to wit:

Titan Q
Hall of Fame
All-American
********

Re: Top 25 talk
« Reply #8612 on: October 26, 2014, 12:44:50 pm »

Quote from: AndOne on October 25, 2014, 03:55:05 pm
But you can't vote for a team partially. its a whole vote or nothing. You can give 1/2 a vote. And as far as IWU, you would think people would know they lost Ziemnik and Davis, each of whom is a big loss and together a HUGE loss. A team with great guard play, a vast unknown at the forward(s) and a marginal center is not the #4 team in the country-at least not going in. As far as the person who voted them #1, not only out to lunch, but out to dinner too.

Quote
#4 sounds too high to me too (based on what I think a "#4 team" is)   

* In all honesty, all the above notwithstanding, the fact is that it is entirely possible that IWU could indeed eventually evolve as a true #4.
Its just that its not there yet---A fact to which the  prosecutor has already agreed as evidenced by Exhibit A which he submitted 10/26/14, and which is duplicated above. 

[AndOne]

North Central's final roster:

http://northcentralcardinals.com/roster.aspx?path=mbball

[Mr. Ypsi]

You bet the ranking of the #4 team is very suspect. Not even those with green blood can truthfully say their team deserves to be ranked that high.

Based on 2013-14 results and returning players for 2014-15 (typically the basis for preseason poll voting), which teams ranked lower than IWU do you feel should be ranked higher than the Titans?

The argument that IWU's ranking is suspect is really only credible if you identify the teams that should be ranked higher.

Unfortunately, that would require a detailed analysis of the top 10-15 ranked teams which I have neither the time nor inclination to delve into.

However, a team that does indeed have elite guard play potential, but pedestrian play out of the center position (the returning center averaged 5.0 ppg), and a vast dark hole at the forward spot(s) (no returning forward with more than a few minutes played all year), just does not have either the look or feel of a national #4 team.

Additionally, your statement that "IWU's ranking is suspect is really only credible if you identify the teams that should be ranked higher" is, in itself, rendered moot and negated by the fact that it seems you, yourself, agree with me about the suspect nature of the #4 national ranking as is confirmed by your own previous statement that "#4 seems too high to me too." Evidence of such can be found by your post on the Top 25 board on 10/26/16, to wit:

Titan Q
Hall of Fame
All-American
********

Re: Top 25 talk
« Reply #8612 on: October 26, 2014, 12:44:50 pm »

Quote from: AndOne on October 25, 2014, 03:55:05 pm
But you can't vote for a team partially. its a whole vote or nothing. You can give 1/2 a vote. And as far as IWU, you would think people would know they lost Ziemnik and Davis, each of whom is a big loss and together a HUGE loss. A team with great guard play, a vast unknown at the forward(s) and a marginal center is not the #4 team in the country-at least not going in. As far as the person who voted them #1, not only out to lunch, but out to dinner too.

Quote
#4 sounds too high to me too (based on what I think a "#4 team" is)   

* In all honesty, all the above notwithstanding, the fact is that it is entirely possible that IWU could indeed eventually evolve as a true #4.
Its just that its not there yet---A fact to which the  prosecutor has already agreed as evidenced by Exhibit A which he submitted 10/26/14, and which is duplicated above. 

Very true.  I did not see IWU as a FF team in either 2012 or 2014, but that is just what happened.  (In 2012 I DID see them as a FF team immediately after I watched them beat #1 Hope in Holland in double OT, but not before.  In 2014 I don't recall ever viewing them in Salem until it actually happened.)

At this point I certainly don't think they are going to make it 3 years out of 4, but I've learned not to be too dogmatic on the subject.

[Titan Q]

Unfortunately, that would require a detailed analysis of the top 10-15 ranked teams which I have neither the time nor inclination to delve into.

However, a team that does indeed have elite guard play potential, but pedestrian play out of the center position (the returning center averaged 5.0 ppg), and a vast dark hole at the forward spot(s) (no returning forward with more than a few minutes played all year), just does not have either the look or feel of a national #4 team.

Additionally, your statement that "IWU's ranking is suspect is really only credible if you identify the teams that should be ranked higher" is, in itself, rendered moot and negated by the fact that it seems you, yourself, agree with me about the suspect nature of the #4 national ranking as is confirmed by your own previous statement that "#4 seems too high to me too." Evidence of such can be found by your post on the Top 25 board on 10/26/16, to wit:

Titan Q
Hall of Fame
All-American
********

Re: Top 25 talk
« Reply #8612 on: October 26, 2014, 12:44:50 pm »

Quote from: AndOne on October 25, 2014, 03:55:05 pm
But you can't vote for a team partially. its a whole vote or nothing. You can give 1/2 a vote. And as far as IWU, you would think people would know they lost Ziemnik and Davis, each of whom is a big loss and together a HUGE loss. A team with great guard play, a vast unknown at the forward(s) and a marginal center is not the #4 team in the country-at least not going in. As far as the person who voted them #1, not only out to lunch, but out to dinner too.

Quote
#4 sounds too high to me too (based on what I think a "#4 team" is)   

* In all honesty, all the above notwithstanding, the fact is that it is entirely possible that IWU could indeed eventually evolve as a true #4.
Its just that its not there yet---A fact to which the  prosecutor has already agreed as evidenced by Exhibit A which he submitted 10/26/14, and which is duplicated above. 

Unfortunately you cut off everything else I said.  Here is the full quote:

#4 sounds too high to me too (based on what I think a "#4 team" is), but it still comes down to the voters having to figure out who should be ranked higher than IWU (or Amherst, Williams, etc).  From what I'm hearing and sensing, the 2014-15 picture is extremely fuzzy here in the preseason.  When one analyzes 1) 2013-14 results, and 2) returning players for 2014-15 (the two high level factors that generally go into preseason poll voting), I'm not sure that produces a list of teams that should clearly be ranked ahead of a team like IWU.

I think most would agree that UW-Whitewater, the defending champs, should be in the preseason top 2 -- the Warhawks lost some important players but return a lot.  I personally believe Augustana - which returns their entire rotation from a 20-8/NCAA tournament team - is a good top two pick as well.  After that, it sounds like a lot of candidates for spots 3 down to, heck, 25. 

This has been said already, but I do think teams with a proven track record often get the benefit of the doubt in preseason polls like this one (where this is not much clarity).  In the case of IWU, Ron Rose has led the Titans to 5 consecutive NCAA tournament appearances (five 20+ win seasons), with 4 Sweet 16s, 3 Elite 8s, and 2 Final Fours in that span.  Like other coaches at strong programs, he's proven himself as a really good "reloader" - able to plug new guys in (usually from IWU's JV program - Eliud Gonzalez, Kevin Reed, Victor Davis, Andrew Ziemnik, Dylan Overstreet, etc ) and able to mesh those with returnees. 

Regarding 2014-15 personnel, the Titans do have a lot of returning talent from a CCIW championship/Final Four team -- an elite backcourt and the starting center.  I believe IWU has more talent at the open forward spots than some realize.

While I think #4 is too high for IWU (and that the #1 vote was bizarre), in a preseason with this much uncertainty, I don't think it's a bad thing for voters to go with some of the proven programs as they wait for games to sort things out.  I really haven't heard anyone make a strong case for who should be ranked higher than some of the "name brands" that landed at the top.

[Titan Q]

Unfortunately, that would require a detailed analysis of the top 10-15 ranked teams which I have neither the time nor inclination to delve into.

But that's the only way to get a feel for what ranking teams is like, and how the poll shakes out like it does.  It's too easy to just say that a certain ranking is "suspect" without at least trying to look at the big picture.

For example, here is a look at teams 4 through 10 -- 2013-14 starters plus top 3 scoring reserves.  Is there any team without significant questions?  How many teams here should be ranked ahead of IWU in the 2014-15 preseason?  Which team can you slot at #4 that would have the "look and feel" of a #4 team?

(#4) Illinois Wesleyan (27-5/12-2 CCIW, NCAA Final Four, final ranking = #3)
G – Dylan Overstreet, 6-3 Jr (9.9 ppg, 3.7 rpg, 4.2 apg)
G – Pat Sodemann, 6-3 Jr (9.6 ppg, 2.1 rpg)
F – Andrew Ziemnik, 6-4 Sr (12.5 ppg, 5.8 rpg)
F – Victor Davis, 6-5 Sr (11.8 ppg, 6.5 rpg)
C – Mike Marietti, 6-8 So (5.0 ppg, 3.0 rpg, .642 FG)

G – Jordan Nelson, 6-1 Jr (11.4 ppg)
F – Mike Mayberger, 6-5 Sr (7.1 ppg)
G – Bryce Dolan, 6-0 So (5.0 ppg)

(#5) Williams (28-5, 9-1 NESCAC, NCAA Final Four, final ranking = #2)
G – Mike Greenman, 5-8 Fr (5.6 ppg, 1.5 rpg)
G – Daniel Wohl, 6-6 Jr (12.9 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 3.1 apg)
F - Duncan Robinson, 6-7 Fr (17.1 ppg, 6.5 rpg)
F - Taylor Epley, 6-4 Sr (13.5 ppg, 3.0 rpg)
C - Michael Mayer, 6-9 Sr (18.5 ppg, 8.9 rpg)

G - Hayden Rooke-Ley, 6-1 Jr (10.7 ppg, 3.1 rpg)
F - Ryan Kilcullen, 6-7 Jr (4.9 ppg)
G - Daniel Aronowitz, 6-5 Fr (2.9 ppg)

(#6) Calvin (24-6/12-2 MIAA, NCAA Sweet 16, final ranking = #15)
G - Jordan Brink, 6-3 Jr (15.6 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 3.1 apg)
G - Jordan Daley, 6-3 So (9.0 ppg, 3.6 ppg)
F - Tyler Dykstra, 6-8 Jr (7.7 ppg, 4.4 rpg)
F - Mickey Devries, 6-7 Sr (9.3 ppg, 6.3 rpg)
C - Tyler Kruis, 6-9 Sr (15.5 ppg, 5.6 rpg)

G - Austin Parks, 6-0/185 So (6.4 ppg, 2.2 rpg, 3.4 apg)
F - B.J. Van Loo, 6-6/205 So (4.3 ppg, 2.9 rpg)
G - Brad Visser, 6-3/170 Fr (4.2 ppg)

(#7) UW-Stevens Point (28-2/15-1 WIAC, NCAA Sweet 16, final ranking = #5)
G – Tyler Tillema, 6-3 Sr (20.1 ppg, 5.0 rpg, 4.0 apg)
G – Austin Ryf, 6-0 Jr (4.9 ppg, 3.1 rpg)
G – Trevor Hass, 6-4 Sr (17.3 ppg, 4.6 rpg)
F – Joe Ritchay, 6-3 Jr (7.7 ppg, 3.5 rpg)
C – Clayton Heuer, 6-9 Sr (9.9 ppg, 5.0 rpg)

F - Alex Richard, 6-4 Jr (5.8 ppg)
G - Stephen Pelkofer, 6-1 So (3.6 ppg)
F - Jordan Lutz, 6-4 Jr (3.6 ppg)

(#8) Albertus Magnus (28-3, 17-1 GNAC, NCAA Sweet 16, final ranking = #8)
G – Eian Davis, 6-1 Jr (15.8 ppg, 4.9 rpg, 7.7 apg)
G – James Jennings, 5-8 So (10.1 ppg)
G – Darius Watson, 6-5 Sr (21.6 ppg)
F – Lemar Larsen, 6-4 JR (9.5 ppg, 6.5 rpg)
F – Victor Ljuljdjuraj, 6-8 Jr (15.9 ppg, 10.7 ppg)

G - Kyle Wiggins, 6-0 Jr (6.7 ppg)
C - Marcus Walker, 6-6 Jr (4.3 ppg, 4.6 rpg)
G - Marc Wilson, 6-2 So. (4.0 ppg)

(#9) Washington U. (24-3, 14-0 UAA, NCAA 2nd round, final ranking = #6)
G – Alan Aboona, 6-1 Sr (17.4 ppg, 2.8 rpg, 5.3 apg)
G – Tim Cooney, 6-3 Sr (11.1 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 3.6 apg)
F – Matt Palucki, 6-6 Jr (14.4 ppg, 6.9 rpg)
F – Nick Burt, 6-5 Jr (7.8 ppg, 5.8 rpg)
F – Chris Klimek, 6-5 Sr (16.5 ppg, 7.0 rpg)

G - Luke Silverman-Lloyd, 6-2 So (3.7 ppg)
G - David Fatoki, 5-10 Jr (3.7 ppg)
F - Brandon Staffeil, 6-5 So (3.1 ppg)

(#10) Wooster (26-4/16-2 NCAC, NCAA 2nd round, final ranking = #10)
G – Xavier Brown, 5-11 Jr (14.7 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 2.1 apg)
G – Scott Purcell, 6-2 Sr (6.7 ppg, 3.7 rpg)
G – Doug Thorpe, 5-9 Sr (14.3 ppg, 3.0 rpg)
F – Dan Fanelly, 6-6 Fr (9.1 ppg, 4.9 rpg)
F – Kenny DeBoer, 6-5 Sr (11.1 ppg, 5.1 ppg)

G - Evan Pannell, 6-2 Jr (7.8 ppg, 3.6 rpg)
C - Josh Kipfer, 6-6 So (5.0 ppg, 3.8 ppg)
G - Jalen Goodmin, 6-0 Jr (2.9 ppg)

[Titan Q]

Congratulation on 10,000 posts! Out of curiosity, have you adopted a Texas school to follow while living so far away from CCIW land?

Congrats upon joining the rarefied air of the Five Digits Club, Bob! (In the case of most of its members, rarefied = hot.  )

Thank you!  Had no idea I was nearing a milestone!

[madzillagd]

Personally I wouldn't have any problem putting Albertus in the #4 spot. They lost the least and in my opinion who they lost is going to help their overall team play.  They played like a collection of individuals last year with one guy playing hero ball too much. Subtract him from the equation I think they will be a more balanced team and will play like a team rather than a bunch of individuals. I would not be surprised at all if they make it all the way to Salem this year.