MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Gregory Sager]

It IS possible to go to a good school and PLAY basketball rather than to go to a good school and WATCH basketball. But a recruit needs to do his homework, and to keep his options open.

As far as recruiting is concerned, Joe Hakes said it best here on CCIW Chat the other day:

It is the hardest part of coaching because you are reliant upon the whims of seventeen year olds as well as the financial ability of the parents to pay.  Add in the expectations that parents have for their "most-wonderful-and-talented-child-that-has-ever-lived" that they have supported to the nth degree for many years, and it is an emotional and often irrational decision that determines where they go.

(emphasis mine)

[WUPHF]

It IS possible to go to a good school and PLAY basketball rather than to go to a good school and WATCH basketball. But a recruit needs to do his homework, and to keep his options open.

It is possible to go to a good school and play limited minutes and still have a phenomenal college experience with no regrets or thoughts of transferring. 

[Titan Q]

I sure hope that he's savored those nine minutes of playing time that he's had this season.

Now, granted, there's a lot more involved in a college education than playing time. Perhaps DePaul was a more congenial fit for Molinari than was Wesleyan for academic, financial, and/or social reasons. Or perhaps he's just one of those kids who thinks it's more fun to sit at the end of a bench in a huge arena than it is to be The Man in a small gym. This isn't about right or wrong answers, after all; it's about what a kid wants out of his college experience.

It just seems to me that, if you're a basketball player at heart, then that's what you want to do in college: Play basketball. Not just watch it, even from the best seat in the house.

NPU's been lucky enough to get two really good DePaul transfers over the years, Chuck Murphy and Sneed Deaderick, who wanted more out of their college experience than to ride the deep pine in Allstate Arena. I don't think either one ever regretted his decision to transfer from DePaul to NPU.

David Molinari didn't enroll at DePaul to play basketball.  He enrolled for academic reasons.  After he did that, a chance to participate on the basketball team as a walk-on popped up and he pursued it.

I'm guessing those 9 minutes are 9 more than he planned on playing for a Big East team.

[Gregory Sager]

I sure hope that he's savored those nine minutes of playing time that he's had this season.

Now, granted, there's a lot more involved in a college education than playing time. Perhaps DePaul was a more congenial fit for Molinari than was Wesleyan for academic, financial, and/or social reasons. Or perhaps he's just one of those kids who thinks it's more fun to sit at the end of a bench in a huge arena than it is to be The Man in a small gym. This isn't about right or wrong answers, after all; it's about what a kid wants out of his college experience.

It just seems to me that, if you're a basketball player at heart, then that's what you want to do in college: Play basketball. Not just watch it, even from the best seat in the house.

NPU's been lucky enough to get two really good DePaul transfers over the years, Chuck Murphy and Sneed Deaderick, who wanted more out of their college experience than to ride the deep pine in Allstate Arena. I don't think either one ever regretted his decision to transfer from DePaul to NPU.

David Molinari didn't enroll at DePaul to play basketball.  He enrolled for academic reasons.  After he did that, a chance to participate on the basketball team as a walk-on popped up and he pursued it.

Then good for him. He's getting what he wants out of a college experience, and it's not primarily basketball.

[Titan Q]

I'm coming to the conclusion that that win over UWW might've been an outlier. Think about it: A home contest against the defending national champion; a full house of screaming Augieheads; the game goes to double OT and is thus about as dead-even as a basketball game can get; one Augie player goes on an absolute tear that dwarfs any other game he's played in his entire life -- the whole scenario practically screams "outlier." Now, I'm not saying that I'll go with the "bet all the corn in Manito" line on UWW should the Warhawks and the Doggies meet on a neutral court next month (UWW's had to eke out several very narrow wins in WIAC play this season, so it's not as though Pat Miller's purple cagers are all a bunch of supermen), but I definitely like the Warhawks in that situation.

But is UW-Whitewater any different than the rest of the good-but-not-great teams out there?

I watched the UWW vs Augie game - those looked like two very even basketball teams to me.  Before Hunter Hill went crazy, Augie controlled for a long stretch.  Just seems to me that the home team won a close game in a very even match up...that doesn't seem like an outlier to me.

UWW beat a good-but-not-great Hope team by 2 in the non-conference.  In WIAC play, they have a 4-point win at 9-12 River Falls, 1-point at 8-13 Eau Claire, and 1-point vs 10-12 La Crosse. 

UWW seems like a deserving #1, but are they really any better than, say, #24 Illinois Wesleyan?

[kiko]

It seems that you may be confusing the results of which you speak with point differential. 

Well, Wheaton 76, Elmhurst 68 at Wheaton is a result.

So is North Park 92, North Central 68 at the Crackerbox.

But I don't think they necessarily lead an unbiased third party to the same conclusion about the teams that picked up the losses.

Anyway, as far as NCC-EC what matters most is who wins Sat. If its EC, the point is likely moot. If its NCC, more lively discussion/dissention can ensue.     

This I will agree with.  And I hope we have lost of lively discussion starting around 9:30p Saturday night.

[GoPerry]

It IS possible to go to a good school and PLAY basketball rather than to go to a good school and WATCH basketball. But a recruit needs to do his homework, and to keep his options open.

It is possible to go to a good school and play limited minutes and still have a phenomenal college experience with no regrets or thoughts of transferring.

Agree entirely and exactly my point earlier.  Those who will play large minutes for 3 years or more are the exception rather than the rule.  Those who are wise, and more importantly realistic about their ability to succeed on the D3 level, will give lots of weight to the institution as a whole, not just their potential athletic experience.

[Gregory Sager]

I'm coming to the conclusion that that win over UWW might've been an outlier. Think about it: A home contest against the defending national champion; a full house of screaming Augieheads; the game goes to double OT and is thus about as dead-even as a basketball game can get; one Augie player goes on an absolute tear that dwarfs any other game he's played in his entire life -- the whole scenario practically screams "outlier." Now, I'm not saying that I'll go with the "bet all the corn in Manito" line on UWW should the Warhawks and the Doggies meet on a neutral court next month (UWW's had to eke out several very narrow wins in WIAC play this season, so it's not as though Pat Miller's purple cagers are all a bunch of supermen), but I definitely like the Warhawks in that situation.

But is UW-Whitewater any different than the rest of the good-but-not-great teams out there?

No. That's the larger point that I've been making for most of the season. I don't think that there are any great teams out there -- no sure-thing, can't-miss-Salem type teams. I feel as though I've said it so often now that I'm blue in the face fingers.

I watched the UWW vs Augie game - those looked like two very even basketball teams to me.  Before Hunter Hill went crazy, Augie controlled for a long stretch.

... and also collapsed late in the game, as you yourself pointed out at the time:

Had Hill not made that really tough shot with 0:21 left in regulation to send the game to OT, we'd be talking about the stretch where Augustana went from up 11 at 7:40 to down 3 at 2:33.  It was a 17-3 UW-Whitewater run during which the Vikings really couldn't score at all.

Hunter Hill had 24 points already recorded in the scorebook when Augie was up 11 with 7:40 left (his trey's what got them that particular lead at that moment). So it seems to me that Hill was already going crazy before Augie had that late-game collapse. That's a lot of points to accrue with over seven and a half minutes of regulation still left to play.

Just seems to me that the home team won a close game in a very even match up...that doesn't seem like an outlier to me.

I don't think that it was that even a match-up, mostly because Hunter Hill had an out-of-his-mind kind of night that he's never come close to duplicating before or since. If Hill had ever had a game anywhere close to that, I'd say, "Sure, Augie's capable of doing this kind of thing on any given night because they've got a super-stud scorer who can do Jordanesque things to the scoreboard."

But Augie doesn't; not really. I explained this to iwu70 last month. Hill had that 29-point game against Illinois Wesleyan last season, along with a couple of 24-point performances against MacMurray and Elmhurst. His next-highest total this season is the 22 that he put up against Wheaton last month. In other words, that December 10 game only went into two overtimes, let alone became an Augie W, because Hunter Hill was so en fuego that spontaneous human combustion seemed like an actual possibility for the junior from Byron, IL.

This is not to badmouth Hunter Hill, who is one of the league's best players. But if he has his typical high-end night -- say, something in the 20-to-24 range -- Augie is looking at UWW's taillights at the end of that game back on December 10. Add in a neutral floor, which was part of my original stipulation, and UWW looks like a definite favorite to me.

UWW beat a good-but-not-great Hope team by 2 in the non-conference.  In WIAC play, they have a 4-point win at 9-12 River Falls, 1-point at 8-13 Eau Claire, and 1-point vs 10-12 La Crosse.

Of course. I mentioned this when I said that I wasn't going to bet all the corn in Manito on the Warhawks in a UWW/AC rematch, right? That brings me right back to the point I made that there aren't any sure-thing, can't-miss-Salem type teams out there.

Besides, if we're talking shaky results (losses or close wins against marginal teams), then Augie's record this season is a lot more suspect than UWW's. The Doggies have logged a 4-point win over Albion (10-11); a 9-point loss to Central (11-10); a 5-point win over MacMurray (10-10); a 4-point win over Wheaton (10-12); and a 3-point win over Millikin (8-14).

UWW seems like a deserving #1, but are they really any better than, say, #24 Illinois Wesleyan?

While IWU is significantly underrated at the moment in the d3hoops.com poll -- and you seem pretty adamant about pushing your alma mater's team into the "great" category -- I would counsel caution, based upon this particular piece of advice:

But like Dennie Bridges often said, You are only as good as your next game.  And for IWU, that's Augustana at Shirk on Wednesday.

[Gregory Sager]

It IS possible to go to a good school and PLAY basketball rather than to go to a good school and WATCH basketball. But a recruit needs to do his homework, and to keep his options open.

It is possible to go to a good school and play limited minutes and still have a phenomenal college experience with no regrets or thoughts of transferring.

Agree entirely and exactly my point earlier.  Those who will play large minutes for 3 years or more are the exception rather than the rule.  Those who are wise, and more importantly realistic about their ability to succeed on the D3 level, will give lots of weight to the institution as a whole, not just their potential athletic experience.

Yes, but ...

It is the hardest part of coaching because you are reliant upon the whims of seventeen year olds as well as the financial ability of the parents to pay.  Add in the expectations that parents have for their "most-wonderful-and-talented-child-that-has-ever-lived" that they have supported to the nth degree for many years, and it is an emotional and often irrational decision that determines where they go.

[Titan Q]

#24-Illinois Wesleyan (17-5, 9-2) vs #11-Augustana (18-4, 8-3), 7:00pm...

(conference only stats)

#24-Illinois Wesleyan (17-5, 9-2)
G - Dylan Overstreet, 6-3/180 Sr. (11.9 ppg, 3.7 rpg, 4.2 apg)
G - Jordan Nelson, 6-1/170 Sr. (14.2 ppg, 1.8 rpg, 1.9 apg)
G - Pat Sodemann, 6-3/195 Sr. (9.1 ppg, 2.8 rpg)
F - Ryan Coyle, 6-6/208 Jr. (6.4 ppg, 4.7 rpg)
C - Trevor Seibring, 6-8/235 So. (7.5 ppg, 5.2 rpg)

C - Mike Marietti, 6-8/245 Jr. (8.0 ppg, 3.9 rpg)
G - Bryce Dolan, 6-0/165 Jr. (6.1 ppg, 2.5 apg)
F - Alec Bausch, 6-6/210 So. (5.1 ppg, 5.3 rpg)
G - Joel Pennington, 6-0/175 Jr. (4.6 ppg)
G - Brady Rose, 6-2/170 Fr. (3.7 ppg)

#11-Augustana (18-4, 8-3)
G - Hunter Hill, 5-9/163 Jr. (12.9 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 2.5 apg)
G - Jawan Straughter, 6-1/175 Jr. (5.7 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 2.0 apg)
G - Griffin Pils, 6-4/213 Jr. (8.8 ppg, 3.4 rpg)
F - Tayvian Johnson, 6-6/201 Jr. (6.6 ppg, 3.9 rpg)
F - Ben Ryan, 6-5/209 Jr. (11.1 ppg, 6.6 rpg)

F - Nic Hoepfner, 6-6/200 Sr. (9.6 ppg, 4.8 rpg)
F - Brandon Motzel, 6-7/207 Jr. (7.3 ppg, 5.7 rpg)
G - Danielius Jurgutis, 6-0/197 Sr. (6.9 ppg)
G - Dylan Sortillo, 6-2/178 Fr. (4.7 ppg)
G - Mark Roth, 6-1/167 Sr. (2.2 ppg)


Pantagraph - http://www.pantagraph.com/sports/college/basketball/titan-men-seek-cciw-crown-vs-augustana/article_e723ab04-65d0-541a-8e9e-d71aff679fbf.html

QCOnline - http://www.qconline.com/sports/college_sports/vikings-titans-battle-could-determine-league-title/article_b69f0710-9020-5a48-826e-6d7311da323b.html

Live video/stats - http://portal.stretchinternet.com/iwu/

WJBC Radio - http://portal.stretchinternet.com/wjbc/

[Titan Q]

While IWU is significantly underrated at the moment in the d3hoops.com poll -- and you seem pretty adamant about pushing your alma mater's team into the "great" category -- I would counsel caution, based upon this particular piece of advice:

I'm adamant about pushing IWU into the "great" category?

[Gregory Sager]

While IWU is significantly underrated at the moment in the d3hoops.com poll -- and you seem pretty adamant about pushing your alma mater's team into the "great" category -- I would counsel caution, based upon this particular piece of advice:

I'm adamant about pushing IWU into the "great" category?

Seems that way to me, based upon this:

IWU 89
Augustana 84

On the road at a great team, it'd be hard for a team to play any better than IWU did last night for 40 minutes.  [snip]
IWU looked liked the better team last night - I just don't see much separation in overall talent between IWU and Augie.

... and this:

IWU wasn't a great team earlier in the year, but they are playing like a great team now.  Things have really come together.

But, hey, it's your opinion. However you want to categorize your Titans is strictly your business.

[Titan Q]

I really don't think either of those quotes reflected me "adamantly pushing IWU into the great category"...but OK.

[AndOne]

It seems that you may be confusing the results of which you speak with point differential. 

Well, Wheaton 76, Elmhurst 68 at Wheaton is a result.

So is North Park 92, North Central 68 at the Crackerbox.

But I don't think they necessarily lead an unbiased third party to the same conclusion about the teams that picked up the losses.

Anyway, as far as NCC-EC what matters most is who wins Sat. If its EC, the point is likely moot. If its NCC, more lively discussion/dissention can ensue.     

This I will agree with.  And I hope we have lost of lively discussion starting around 9:30p Saturday night.

1. The particular "unbiased third party" that would be involved in this case would see each school lost a game, period.

2. At 9:30 on a SATURDAY night, the night is still young! 
I'll still be out either drowning my sorrows or engaged in celebration. 
I was home on Sat at 9:30 when I was 12. 

[John Gleich]

But is UW-Whitewater any different than the rest of the good-but-not-great teams out there?

I watched the UWW vs Augie game - those looked like two very even basketball teams to me.  Before Hunter Hill went crazy, Augie controlled for a long stretch.  Just seems to me that the home team won a close game in a very even match up...that doesn't seem like an outlier to me.

UWW beat a good-but-not-great Hope team by 2 in the non-conference.  In WIAC play, they have a 4-point win at 9-12 River Falls, 1-point at 8-13 Eau Claire, and 1-point vs 10-12 La Crosse. 

UWW seems like a deserving #1, but are they really any better than, say, #24 Illinois Wesleyan?

Interestingly, River Falls has a 1 point lose at St Thomas as well, and Eau Claire lost by 4 in St Paul too.

Not sure if that says more about RF, EC, WW, or UST... Our if it just proves that this is a wacky season.