MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[markerickson]

In 1977, I spent some time fishing with my dad in MN while we listened to a transistor radio with Halsey Hall calling Twins games on WCCO.  This was the year that my favorite Twin, Rod Carew, flirted with .400.  The Twins were not good, but Sir Rodney put up great numbers.  He finished the year hitting .388 and had a career year for RBIs (100).  In my young mind, I believed Carew would most definitely win the MVP.  But some of the news I read explained that Al Cowens of the first place Royals could win the honor.  Cowens ended the season batting .312 with 112 RBIs.  Fortunately, Carew won the MVP, and the vote was fairly close.

By contrast, I am completely and utterly baffled why somebody left Juwan Henry off the first team all-conference ballot.  (Only Overstreet and Hill were the unanimous selections.  WTF.)  Offensively and defensively, Henry's numbers are clearly vastly superior to Overstreet and Hill.  One could point to Overstreet's greater assist/game over Henry (4.5/4.0), but that is quite petty.  Hill is no doubt inferior both offensively and defensively to Henry.  Henry was no doubt the league's MOP and in terms of MVP, he was the catalyst behind North Park's vast improvement.  Said players from IWU and AU cannot count overall team improvement to support their stature. 

[Mr. Ypsi]

In 1977, I spent some time fishing with my dad in MN while we listened to a transistor radio with Halsey Hall calling Twins games on WCCO.  This was the year that my favorite Twin, Rod Carew, flirted with .400.  The Twins were not good, but Sir Rodney put up great numbers.  He finished the year hitting .388 and had a career year for RBIs (100).  In my young mind, I believed Carew would most definitely win the MVP.  But some of the news I read explained that Al Cowens of the first place Royals could win the honor.  Cowens ended the season batting .312 with 112 RBIs.  Fortunately, Carew won the MVP in a fairly close vote.

By contrast, I am completely and utterly baffled why somebody left Juwan Henry off the first team all-conference ballot.  (Only Overstreet and Hill were the unanimous selections.  WTF.)  Offensively and defensively, Henry's numbers are clearly vastly superior to Overstreet and Hill.  One could point to Overstreet's greater assist/game over Henry (4.5/4.0), but that is quite petty.  Hill is no doubt inferior both offensively and defensively to Henry.  Henry was no doubt the league's MOP and in terms of MVP, he was the catalyst behind North Park's vast improvement.  Said players from IWU and AU cannot count overall team improvement to support their stature.

The key stat, IMO, is not assists (which you gave for ALL games), but A/TO ratio.  For conference games (the only ones that count for conference honors), Dylan was 59/26 = 2.3; Juwan was 37/41 = 0.9.  That is NOT an insignificant difference.

Despite Greg's reductio ad absurdum allegations about my per minute calculations, I was not trying to say a guy who comes in for three minutes and scores 10 points is therefore a 130 ppg player!  I just wanted to note that Hill and Overstreet sat far more minutes because of blow-out wins than did Henry.  Had they played 36 mpg, and had their teams needed that sort of production from them, who knows what they might have done?

I've already said that I personally would have voted for Juwan Henry for MOP.  But let's be careful about downplaying the honors bestowed upon Hunter Hill and Dylan Overstreet.  They are worthy recipients, whether or not one thinks someone else was even more worthy.

(And, Mark, I share your mystification that anyone left Juwan Henry off their ballot.  Perhaps it was a Michigan guy who, like me, continually initially types Juwan Howard, instead of Juwan Henry! )

[Mr. Ypsi]

I'd be willing to bet that we are the only board in D3 sports with reductio ad absurdum.

Definitely not. But probably the only board that actually used the term.

Yeah, but the MWC board talks in Haiku. 

"Haiku or not Haiku?  That is the Question."

Midwest does haiku
Says Greek.  But it's merely faux
If not Japanese.

D3Boards lacks the graphics
To render hieroglyphics
Or Japanese script.
My wings have been clipped.
I've fallen to spewing out Limericks.

--apologies to William Shakespeare

[Greek Tragedy]

Wow. Now I have to avoid the CCIW page too? 

[AndOne]

In 1977, I spent some time fishing with my dad in MN while we listened to a transistor radio with Halsey Hall calling Twins games on WCCO.  This was the year that my favorite Twin, Rod Carew, flirted with .400.  The Twins were not good, but Sir Rodney put up great numbers.  He finished the year hitting .388 and had a career year for RBIs (100).  In my young mind, I believed Carew would most definitely win the MVP.  But some of the news I read explained that Al Cowens of the first place Royals could win the honor.  Cowens ended the season batting .312 with 112 RBIs.  Fortunately, Carew won the MVP in a fairly close vote.

By contrast, I am completely and utterly baffled why somebody left Juwan Henry off the first team all-conference ballot.  (Only Overstreet and Hill were the unanimous selections.  WTF.)  Offensively and defensively, Henry's numbers are clearly vastly superior to Overstreet and Hill.  One could point to Overstreet's greater assist/game over Henry (4.5/4.0), but that is quite petty.  Hill is no doubt inferior both offensively and defensively to Henry.  Henry was no doubt the league's MOP and in terms of MVP, he was the catalyst behind North Park's vast improvement.  Said players from IWU and AU cannot count overall team improvement to support their stature.

The key stat, IMO, is not assists (which you gave for ALL games), but A/TO ratio.  For conference games (the only ones that count for conference honors), Dylan was 59/26 = 2.3; Juwan was 37/41 = 0.9.  That is NOT an insignificant difference.

(And, Mark, I share your mystification that anyone left Juwan Henry off their ballot.  Perhaps it was a Michigan guy who, like me, continually initially types Juwan Howard, instead of Juwan Henry! )

But the assist/TO ratio can be a misleading stat as well.
In 14 conference games, Overstreet had 59 assists and 26 TOs for an A/TO ratio of 2.27. In the same number of conference games, Donte Logan of Carthage had 98 assists and 58 TOs for an A/TO ratio of 1.69. On the surface, it looks like Overstreet had the upper hand. However, consider the fact that in the same number of games, Logan had 39 (2.8 per game) MORE assists than did Overstreet. Granted he also had 32 more TOs than did Overstreet. But, Logan still had 40 more assists than TOs, while Overstreet only had 33 more. Consider also, with more (number) better players on IWU, including several very good shooters, than Carthage had, it should have been easier for Overstreet to get those assists. Often times assists are a function of the performance of other players on your team. Make a great pass, but if the receiver blows the layup--no assist for you. And IWU certainly had more better shooters and finishers than did Carthage, especially after the departures of Herth and Kastel. So while Overstreet's 2,27 looks better than Logan's 1.69, who was really the better PG? What would Logan have done if he played for IWU and had the level of talent surrounding him that Overstreet did? Add in the fact that Logan is also a lot quicker than Overstreet.

* NOT saying Overstreet isn't a good player. Just that you can use statistics to frame things however you want them to be seen.
* ALSO NOT saying I'd take either player over Juwan Henry who can do more things well overall than anyone else.

And as far as leaving Mr. Henry off a ballot----

[bbfan44]

Which coach didn't vote Henry to the first team?  I'm sure many of you have looked at the stat lines in the games to see if there was one team that sort of held him in check.  Maybe that coach is the one to suspect?

[AppletonRocks]

Juwan Henry is appreciated in the WIAC.  Maybe he should move there. 

[AndOne]

2015 CCIW All-Conference Men's Basketball Team

2015 Fred Young Co-Most Outstanding Player
Hunter Hill - Augustana
Dylan Overstreet - Illinois Wesleyan

2015 CCIW Coach of the Year
Grey Giovanine - Augustana

2015 CCIW Co-Freshman of the Year
Jordan Robinson - North Park
TJ Sims - Millikin

FIRST TEAM            

Jack Burchett            North Central          F    Sr.    Mokena, Ill./Providence Catholic
Juwan Henry                North Park         G    So.    Chicago, Ill./Bogan
Hunter Hill*                   Augustana          G    Jr.    Byron, Ill./H.S.
Dylan Overstreet*        Ill Wesleyan            G    Sr.    Paxton, Ill./Paxton-Buckley-Loda 
Ben Ryan                      Augustana            F      Jr.    Washington, Ill./H.S. 
Kyle Wuest               Elmhurst                 G    Jr.    Edinburgh, Ind./H.S.

SECOND TEAM            

Donte Logan               Carthage            G    Sr.    Evanston, Ill./Niles West
Will Nixon                    Elmhurst            F/C    Jr.    Plainfield, Ill./South
Charles Rosenberg     North Central       F    Sr.    Palatine, Ill./Fremd
Jawan Straughter      Augustana         G    Jr.    Bolingbrook, Ill./Plainfield East
Brayden Teuscher      Wheaton            G    Sr.    Rockford, Ill./Christian

THIRD TEAM            

Bryant Ackerman          Elmhurst            G    Jr.    Loogootee, Ind./H.S.
Tayvian Johnson          Augustana           F    Jr.    East Moline, Ill./United
Jordan Nelson                  Ill Wesleyan    G    Sr.    Lincoln, Ill./H.S.
Jordan Robinson          North Park           F    Fr.    Schaumburg, Ill./Hoffman Estates
TJ Sims                          Millikin             G    Fr.    Bloomington, Ill./H.S.

* Unanimous Selection

Some thoughts on the all-conference team:

* The results continue to suggest that a prime consideration in election to, and placement on, the CCIW all conference team is often a function of where a team finishes as much as it is based on individual talent alone.

* If D3Hoops CCIW posters had done the voting rather than the coaches, exit polls strongly suggest NPU's Henry would have won MOP

* Hocus Pocus Dominocus. Whether you want to call the award the MOP, MVP, POY, or whatever, it should signify the best overall player. The one that can do the most things well. The biggest game changer. The one who strikes the most fear into the hearts of the opponent.

* A perfect illustration of my 1st point is the inclusion of Ben Ryan on the 1st team. Augie wins, they get 2 on 1st team. I think a good argument could be made that Brayden Teuscher or Charlie Rosenberg should switch places with Ryan. Hell, Wheaton's Michael Berg even averaged both more points and rebounds.

* Sorry, but Jawan Straughter has no business being on the All-Conference team. He ranked 14th in the conference with 2.07 assists per game, and 14th in steals with 1.0 per game. His name does not appear anywhere else among the leaders listed in any statistical category. He is only on the team due to Augie's finishing first. Congrats to Stomper Giovanine for somehow ramroding that one through.

* NCC's Jayme Moten got screwed by being able to play in only 11 conference games due to injury. The 7th leading average scorer, #15 in FG% despite shooting a big percentage of his shots from three, #5 in 3 point shooting percentage, and #1 in 3 point shots made. And unlike some of the guards listed, he even plays a little defense. Certainly one of the top 16 players in the CCIW. 

[Titan Q]

Ron Rose will be on Hoopsville tonight at 7:00pm Central...

http://www.iwusports.com/news/2015/2/26/MBB_0226154019.aspx

[Gregory Sager]

I would doubt that the 8 coaches have thought much about the nuances of Most "Outstanding" vs Most "Valuable". I suspect the coaches discuss their all conf votes with their assistants but is it much more than a quick sharing of thoughts over the water cooler? The deliberation process varies with each coach probably.

I would agree that the coaches probably don't give much thought to the nuances of "outstanding" versus "valuable." I'm not sure that the deliberation process varies much from coach to coach, though. I tend to think that USee was right when he said:

I think the path of least resistance is to award the MOP/MVP award to the player(s) on the winning team(s). Its a default position taken by the coaches in my opinion and one that takes an extraordinary effort to displace. Hill and Overstreet are obvious choices as the best players on the top 2 teams.

"Path of least resistance" doesn't imply a lot of deliberation.

I would further doubt that the CCIW gave much thought to the same in deciding to use Outstanding instead of Valuable(in most of the other conference sports they call it POY).  With how much intentionality did the D3Hoops crew name their award Player of the Year( as opposed to the "Pat Coleman Award for Valuability and Much Outstandery")?

The CCIW named the award "Most Outstanding Player" when it first began giving it out back before the mists of time (i.e., the 1967-68 season). The only CCIW Chat poster who has both the insider perspective and the rings around his trunk (if we were to saw him in half) to possibly be aware of why the league's braintrust back in the Summer of Love decided to call it the Most Outstanding Player award rather than the Most Valuable Player award or the Player of the Year award is our resident Methuselah, Dennis Prikkel.

As for why d3hoops.com has a POY rather than an MVP or MOP, it's likely that only the Guru knows.

In any case, as Greg stated, the CCIW's top season end accolade for an individual player's season long performance goes similarly to MVP awards in most all the Pro sports where overall team success is a significant factor or even a requirement except in rare circumstances.  Unless the conference starts issuing voting guidelines, that's probably the way it will be.

That's probably true. I just want to reiterate, though, that this "outstanding vs. valuable" debate did not start with me. As I alluded earlier, it's a pretty common argument in baseball circles, and has been for many years -- I've cited the NL debate from '87, and Mark Erickson cited the AL debate from '77.

For Juwan "Oh" Henry to have won, he would have had to carry his team a little further. I suspect he was in the discussion. But if some coach out there doesn't even think he is first team, then he never had a chance at MOP.

That's the real mystery -- and, really, a bigger crime than Henry not winning the MOP. As several other posters have already said, the omission of Juwan Henry from the first-team ballot of at least one CCIW head coach is utterly baffling.

That said, if NPU had closed the deal Saturday at the Hangar and Obi-wan Henry had led his team to the conference tourney, my bet is he would be holding that trophy today.

Maybe, maybe not. The history of the MOP award isn't exactly replete with examples of players from fourth-place teams winning the award, either. It's almost always been reserved for a player or players from one of the top two teams.

And Greg, I am going on record here today as saying Wheaton will absolutely beat NPU 2x during the conference season next year. Book it! 

Duly bookmarked.

I'd be willing to bet that we are the only board in D3 sports with reductio ad absurdum.

Definitely not. But probably the only board that actually used the term.

LOL!

Yeah, but the MWC board talks in Haiku. 

You mean it used to talk in haiku, Tom. The MWC board is, sadly, a shadow of its former self.

Unlike the MWC board, if Greg and I duel with Haiku, we'll do it in Japanese!

柿食えば

鐘が鳴るなり

法隆寺

Take that, Chuck!

I just wanted to note that Hill and Overstreet sat far more minutes because of blow-out wins than did Henry.

I don't think it was a function of blowout wins as much as it was the regular rotations of two teams that went a lot deeper than did North Park.

* The results continue to suggest that a prime consideration in election to, and placement on, the CCIW all conference team is often a function of where a team finishes as much as it is based on individual talent alone.

I think that we can substitute the word "usually" for the word "often" in your statement, Mark.

As I said before, the one deviation this year from the "to the winners go the spoils" method of voting that the coaches use is the fact that second-place Illinois Wesleyan only placed two players on the All-CCIW team this season, rather than three.

* A perfect illustration of my 1st point is the inclusion of Ben Ryan on the 1st team. Augie wins, they get 2 on 1st team. I think a good argument could be made that Brayden Teuscher or Charlie Rosenberg should switch places with Ryan. Hell, Wheaton's Michael Berg even averaged both more points and rebounds.

* Sorry, but Jawan Straughter has no business being on the All-Conference team. He ranked 14th in the conference with 2.07 assists per game, and 14th in steals with 1.0 per game. His name does not appear anywhere else among the leaders listed in any statistical category. He is only on the team due to Augie's finishing first. Congrats to Stomper Giovanine for somehow ramroding that one through.

* NCC's Jayme Moten got screwed by being able to play in only 11 conference games due to injury. The 7th leading average scorer, #15 in FG% despite shooting a big percentage of his shots from three, #5 in 3 point shooting percentage, and #1 in 3 point shots made. And unlike some of the guards listed, he even plays a little defense. Certainly one of the top 16 players in the CCIW.

As I said the other day, coaches have made exceptions in the past for players who've missed three or more games when picking the All-CCIW team. But those exceptions are very rare. As good a player as Moten is, I'm not sure he crosses into that "exceptional" category.

As for Straughter, I'm sure that he was picked because of his defensive prowess; he's one of the league's better perimeter defenders. But, yeah, as I posted on Tuesday, I don't think that he's All-CCIW timber at all. Heck, if you absolutely have to name a fourth Augie player to the All-CCIW team -- and I certainly don't think it's merited, because (according to the "to the winners go the spoils" method) Augie wasn't that dominant for a CCIW champion, going a comparatively modest 11-3 and winning the league by only a game -- I'd go with Nic Hoepfner over Straughter.

If I had a ballot, it would've looked like this:

First team
Jack Burchett, NCC
Juwan Henry, NPU
Hunter Hill, AC
Dylan Overstreet, IWU
Brayden Teuscher, WC

Second team
Erik Crittenden, EC
Donte Logan, CC
Charles Rosenberg, NCC
Ben Ryan, AC
Kyle Wuest, EC

Third team
Bryant Ackerman, EC
Tayvian Johnson, AC
Jordan Nelson, IWU
Jordan Robinson, NPU
T.J. Sims, MU

Notice that I didn't cheat by listing 16 players.

[iwumichigander]

Actually, the correct name for MOP is the "Fred Young CCIW Most Outstanding Player Award".  Greg is correct that it was created in the 1967-68 season.
It as named after,  Mr. Fred Young  - a 1915 graduate of IWU Law School, an outstanding athlete, sports writer, columnist and sports official.  Mr. Young wrote for The Pantagraph for 50 years .  He also played semi-pro baseball.  He was a 25 year official for football, basketball and track  working games coast to coast at all levels which brought him national recognition.  He was also the founder of the Illinois Sports Hall of Fame along with many other accomplishments. 
(I had the privilege to meet, know and work with him through IWU Sports Information. He was the definition of a gentleman; and, I never heard a coach or administrator from any school address him by other than Mr. Young.)

As I recall, the AD's and coaches wanted to both reserve the MVP designation for their individual team awards and to make the CCIW award to be a little more than just a valuable player award.  In other words, they wanted to be able to consider on - and off - court accomplishments.

[iwu70]

Excellent work, Ypsi and Greg.  Now I think I've seen about everything on this board -- haiku and Japanese script, kanji, being used by posters.  Shakespeare is spinning in his grave.  My warm congratulations.  Now we need more Asian and Asian-American players in the CCIW, a CCIW version of Linsanity.

Mr. Young was indeed a gentleman.  I met, knew him briefly during my time at IWU as a student, 1966-70.  My Dad still has a piece of the floor of the old Fred Young Fieldhouse, a momento of that era at IWU, sold to alums when the old Fred Young was torn down.  Ypsi and I and others spent many long hours both playing IMs and watching our beloved TITANS in that old barn, that old Fieldhouse.  It was a trap, so hot, with funny bad-bouncing places on the floor, a great place to sit on top the ticket booth at the south end and watch Tommy Gramkow, Fred Evans, Sheldon Thompson, Barry Swanson and others bring home a CCIW crown, and then "head for Kansas City" for post-season play. Early years of Dennie Bridges' coaching career, pre-Jack Sikma.  Kansas City was the Salem of our era.  I little history for the day.

"Should" (sic) be a great tournament this weekend.

IWU70

[iwumichigander]

Regarding the 1st team All CCIW results - the coaches in voting for six (6) first team members did deviate from the Conference Sports Guide which - clearly states the all conference team is made up of three teams 1st, 2nd and 3rd --- of five players.  It furthers states - "In case of a tie for the fifth position, a separate vote will be taken with regard to the players involved in the tie and the loser placed on the second team." Note - same for tie for second team.

Other than the two unanimous 1st team selections, there must have been a four to four vote split, as a coach can vote for his own player, on two (gee, I guess it could also be four ) of the candidates.

I have no problem with how they resolved it.

[Gregory Sager]

Central #3 UWSP was knocked off in the WIAC semis tonight by UWO.

[Titan Q]

Illinois Wesleyan (18-7, 10-4) vs Elmhurst (19-6, 9-5), 5:00pm at Augustana...

(conference only stats)

Illinois Wesleyan (18-7, 10-4)
G - Dylan Overstreet, 6-3/180 Sr. (11.9 ppg, 3.6 rpg, 4.2 apg)
G - Bryce Dolan, 6-0/165 Jr. (7.0 ppg, 1.8 rpg, 2.2 apg)
G - Pat Sodemann, 6-3/195 Sr. (9.5 ppg, 2.6 rpg)
F - Mike Marietti, 6-8/245 Jr. (8.4 ppg, 4.3 rpg)
C - Trevor Seibring, 6-8/235 So. (7.5 ppg, 5.3 rpg)

G - Jordan Nelson, 6-1/170 Sr. (12.7 ppg)
F - Ryan Coyle, 6-6/208 Jr. (5.7 ppg, 4.1 rpg)
F - Alec Bausch, 6-6/210 So. (4.9 ppg, 5.0 rpg)
G - Brady Rose, 6-2/170 Fr. (4.6 ppg)
G - Joel Pennington, 6-0/175 Jr. (4.4 ppg)


Elmhurst (19-6, 9-5)
G - Pat Coleman, 6-2/190 Jr. (3.8 ppg, 2.4 rpg, 1.1 apg)
G - Kyle Wuest, 6-1/185 Jr. (16.3 ppg, 4.9 rpg, 2.6 apg)
G - Bryan Ackerman, 6-2/195 Jr. (11.8 ppg, 4.4 apg)
F - Brandon Schwebke, 6-4/210 Jr. (6.8 ppg, 3.8 apg)
F - Will Nixon, 6-7/210 Jr. (9.0 ppg, 7.0 rpg)

F - Erik Crittenden, 6-7/215 Jr. (10.6 ppg, 6.6 rpg)
G - Peyton Wyatt, 5-11/185 Jr. (5.0 ppg)
F - Kenny Payonk, 6-6/235 Jr. (3.0 ppg, 3.4 rpg)
G - Eric Leonard, 6-0/180 Jr. (2.5 ppg)

Pantagraph - http://www.pantagraph.com/sports/college/basketball/men/season-on-line-for-wesleyan/article_edcde035-6cbb-5327-94a9-8c38fa6d9871.html

Live video - http://portal.stretchinternet.com/augustana/

Live stats - http://www.augustana.edu/athletics/mbasketball/xlive.htm

WJBC radio - http://portal.stretchinternet.com/wjbc/