MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[DFLDWarriorsCCIW]

Greek,

Being from the Central Suburban League we see and play against the North Suburban Conference fairly often.  I have seen Nardini play.  He's a combo guard, isn't very big or strong, but he is skilled, crafty and sneaky quick.  He's got to be a tough customer, as he also played football.  He can stroke from distance, but strikes me as mostly effective as a volume shooter.  Did you find anywhere where it lists his actual 3 pt shooting percentage?  I know I've read he shot 43-44% from the field, but didn't see from 3.  Probably 36-39% which is good but not elite.  The system Vernon Hills ran was perfect for their personnel.  They run a lot of 4 out/1 in with no real post and a lot of drive and kick's to spot up shooters.  They launched a bunch of 3's.  From everything I've heard he is a fantastic kid.  Good get.

Vernon Hills had a great season, was well coached and seemed to have great chemistry, but IMO no way would they have been 26-5 in the "Lakes" side of the NSL.  With this year's squad, they likely wouldn't have won either of our Central Suburban divisions (Maine South, Evanston, New Trier, Deerfield and Highland Park were all as good if not better than VH).  You asked what Vernon Hill's competition was like, so I looked up their schedule.  You could never confuse the "Prairie" side of the NSL with the "Lakes" side. There was a whole bunch of Division I, II and III talent in the Lakes.  Prairie, not so much.  Over the last 3 years the NSL Lakes division has been one of the best conferences in the state of Illinois.  In 2014-2015 it was loaded.  Stevenson won the championship.  Lake Forest beat everyone they played not named "Stevenson".   Lake Zurich, Zion Benton and Libertyville tied for 3rd in the conference with 5-7 records but were handfuls for teams outside the NSL.  Vernon Hills in the Prairie division bested Lakes High School (I know that's confusing) for probably their best victory, but they also lost to them. They beat all the bottom tier teams in our CSL and they cruised through their conference, playing the likes of Round Lake, Antioch, Grayslake, and Wauconda.  They pounded some really weak teams out of conference, but as they say, "you can only play who's on the schedule".  They did however, play 3 better teams from the Lakes division and got pummeled.  They lost to Libertyville by 21, Stevenson by 21 and Lake Zurich by 17.  According to the site I looked at, Nardini had 10 pts, 0 pts and 2 pts respectively against those three squads.  My guess is he feasted on his own conference division and other teams they beat by 50.  Would have liked to see Nardini play against some better caliber players, but he'll get plenty of competition in practice and in conference next year.

[AndOne]

Wheaton
* Tyrel Derrick, 6-0 PG (Lakeland H.S., Rathdrum, ID)
* Kobe Eichelberger, 6-4 SG (Trinity Prep, Maitland, FL)
* Trevor Gunter, 6-6 PF (Grace Community School, Flint, TX)
* Reagan Jones, 6-6 PF (Lake Braddock H.S., Burke, VA)
* Trae Masten, 6-7 SF (South Side H.S., Fort Wayne, IN)
* Troy Morrison, 5-11 PG (Phillips Exeter Academy, NH/Greater Atlanta Christian School '14, GA)
* Luke Peters, 6-3 G/F (Cuyahoga Valley Christian Academy, Stow, OH)
* Michael Winowiecki, 6-3 SG (Indiana Wesleyan/Saugatuck H.S. '14, MI)

Question for Wheaton fans............(and anyone else knowledgeable about Wheaton recruiting)

I have long held the belief that, primarily due to it's religious philosophy, Wheaton doesn't do a lot of actual recruiting in the traditional sense. By "traditional sense" I mean actually going to a kid's high school games in order to establish a presence, and indicate and develop interest in having a kid attend the prospective institution the recruiter represents.
I just can't imagine Mike Schauer or any of his assistants making too many trips to places in Idaho, Florida, Texas, and Virginia, let alone to Michigan, Indiana, and Ohio.
Accordingly, don't many recruits, again in large part due to it's religious philosophy, actually "recruit" themselves to Wheaton? Or, am I misguided in my thinking, and does the Wheaton staff actually make the first contact and travel hundreds or even thousands of miles to see kids play as part of the process? It just seems like many kids would research Christian schools, and then initiate long distance contact with Wheaton or with any other choice of a like-minded school.

Can anyone enlighten me regarding this question? Thanks.

[Gregory Sager]

5 IWU recruits in the top 100 in Illinois. Very daunting for the rest of us. When it comes to recruiting top tier talent, nobody else in the conference ever quite matches the Titans.

Ya, but they're all guards.  How many guards they got now anyway? 

Who says the kids listed are the top 100 players in Illinois? First, examine the wording. Joe Henricksen says "100 of the top. That implies not all of the actual top 100 are listed. Also, other journalists may other ideas about who the top 100 players in the state are. Does a Chicago based journalist, or one based anywhere else, know ALL the 100 best players in the state for certain?Doubtful.

As far as IWU goes, if you're not a good high school player, you're not going to become a member of the basketball team at IWU. But just because Joe Henricksen, or anyone else, says you're one of the absolute top 100 HS players in the state doesn't make it so.

To answer your question, the 4 IWU recruits listed as guards plus the 12 eligible to return from last year's roster, bring the total to 16 guards. With Wesleyan having what is evidently the largest roster in the conference, some posters have previously opined that IWU "hoards" players. I feel you "hoard" something you intend to use. As there is no way so many players can possibly ever be used, I don't personally feel IWU actually "hoards" players.
Is 16 guards an unnecessarily high number? Who knows? What is known is that such a large number practically guarantees many of the 16 will never actually play for IWU.

As far as recruiting "top tier talent," IWU has won the CCIW championship twice on the last 10 years, so they aren't exactly alone in that regard. 

Mark, I think that you overreacted. You didn't consider the source of that post. You should know by now that augiefan's shtick is to talk up IWU at each and every opportunity whenever it presents itself. He's done this for years. His Lou Holtz routine really doesn't affect what happens on the hardwood, of course, but the program that's won the most CCIW titles since Ron Rose took over at IWU doesn't belong to the school in Bloomington; it belongs to the school in Rock Island. In fact, augiefan's navy blue and gold has won twice as many CCIW titles during the Rose era as has IWU. Or, to put it another way, Augie's won as many CCIW crowns since 2006-07 (inclusive) as have IWU and NCC put together.

I don't know augiefan personally; all that we know about each other comes from the fact that we've been reading each other's posts on CCIW Chat for a decade and a half now. My insights into his motives are therefore limited. But I have a sneaking suspicion that talking up IWU makes it more personally satisfying for him when his Rock Islanders then go on to get the best of the Titans in the CCIW title race, as they do so often. If so, then more power to him. As the late John Lennon sang, whatever gets you through the night, 'salright, 'salright.

I do agree with you that Joe Henrickson's opinion isn't the be-all and end-all of anything, recruiting-wise. Why are we all so prone to forget that high-school success isn't the determinant of college success when it comes to basketball? It's a strong indicator, yes, but it's hardly a foolproof method of assessing incoming recruits. To answer my own question, I guess that it's just too strong a temptation to tout one's program in every aspect -- even when what we're touting is really nothing more than names on paper or highlight videos on the computer screen. I'm guilty as charged of that as well. I think that almost all of us are.

BW's post is obviously a continuation of the "hoarding players (guards)" running joke.

When I thinking of hoarding anything, I usually have no intention of using all of what I have. It's actually more of a preventive measure...preventing my opponents from using them. Or in fantasy sports terms, looking to trade my over abundance of "fill in your position" players for other positions.

Neither strategy really helps IWU. :-)

I agree, Tom. Like you, I think of hoarding as both an offensive and a defensive strategy. But, that aside, we're simply recycling a well-worn and tired argument here. I don't think that Illinois Wesleyan hoards players, because the verb "hoard" connotes a level of control over the lives of young men that Ron Rose doesn't have. Those kids who enroll at IWU with the intention of playing basketball do so with their eyes wide open -- and if they want to take the gamble that they're then going to annually beat out a half-dozen of their peers who play the same position for varsity playing time, then that's their $40,000+ per year decision, not Ron Rose's or anybody else's. And if they get frustrated with the odds and quit, or decide in the off-season not to play basketball next year, then that's their $40,000+ per year decision, too.

This is D3, where it's not about the hoarding instincts of a head coach. It's about the free will of the student-athletes he recruits.

I'm not sure there is a more fertile Division III recruiting territory anywhere than the Chicago metropolitan area (city and suburbs).  A strong Division III program could get players just out of this area every year and be a consistent Top 10 program and make Salem runs.

Besides there being a ton of talent, I think Division III has a very strong brand in the Chicago area.

Yes and yes.

[joehakes]

Mike Schauer does indeed travel all over the country to recruit players for his program, as does his staff.  He is a very effective in-the-home recruiter who will appeal to parents as well as potential student-athletes.  While Wheaton's "religious philosophy" may be different than most of the CCIW, there are a number of schools that would consider themselves similar in scope around the country.  Wheaton's academic chops along with the philosophy will pique many students' interest in the institution, but rarely do student-athletes just show up without a relationship that is built on interaction with the coach.  Schools with student bodies that are made up differently will adjust their recruitment strategies (athletic and otherwise) to that difference if they want to be successful.

[Gregory Sager]

Wheaton
* Tyrel Derrick, 6-0 PG (Lakeland H.S., Rathdrum, ID)
* Kobe Eichelberger, 6-4 SG (Trinity Prep, Maitland, FL)
* Trevor Gunter, 6-6 PF (Grace Community School, Flint, TX)
* Reagan Jones, 6-6 PF (Lake Braddock H.S., Burke, VA)
* Trae Masten, 6-7 SF (South Side H.S., Fort Wayne, IN)
* Troy Morrison, 5-11 PG (Phillips Exeter Academy, NH/Greater Atlanta Christian School '14, GA)
* Luke Peters, 6-3 G/F (Cuyahoga Valley Christian Academy, Stow, OH)
* Michael Winowiecki, 6-3 SG (Indiana Wesleyan/Saugatuck H.S. '14, MI)

Question for Wheaton fans............(and anyone else knowledgeable about Wheaton recruiting)

I'm not a Wheaton fan, nor do I play one on TV.

But I do know a little something about Wheaton recruiting, so I'll take a stab at this.

I have long held the belief that, primarily due to it's religious philosophy, Wheaton doesn't do a lot of actual recruiting in the traditional sense. By "traditional sense" I mean actually going to a kid's high school games in order to establish a presence, and indicate and develop interest in having a kid attend the prospective institution the recruiter represents.
I just can't imagine Mike Schauer or any of his assistants making too many trips to places in Idaho, Florida, Texas, and Virginia, let alone to Michigan, Indiana, and Ohio.

That's true, although Wheaton coaches have gotten on planes in the past and both watched games and made home recruiting visits. I know that that's still the case under Mike Schauer, just as it was the case under Bill Harris. How much of it he and his assistants did, or Mike Schauer and his assistants do, I can't say.

It's not simply a matter of the WC basketball program's budgetary resources -- resources which are hardly bottomless, in spite of the fact that each and every one of us non-Wheaties loves to point out the fact that, endowment-wise, the school is richer than Croesus -- it's a matter of time commitment as well. Hopping on a plane to Idaho or Virginia or Texas is not the same thing as getting in a car on a Tuesday or Friday evening and driving to Glen Ellyn or Deerfield or Midlothian.

So, does Wheaton do "a lot of actual recruiting in the traditional sense"? I don't know how much constitutes "a lot," but it's safe to say that Wheaton, by dint of its national recruiting base, does less of it than do its seven CCIW peers.

Accordingly, don't many recruits, again in large part due to it's religious philosophy, actually "recruit" themselves to Wheaton? Or, am I misguided in my thinking, and does the Wheaton staff actually make the first contact and travel hundreds or even thousands of miles to see kids play as part of the process?

As it's been explained to me by Wheaton insiders, neither one fully describes every Wheaton recruit. But your second theory does come closer to the truth than does the first. Wheaton relies upon its active and extensive alumni network across the country, as well as the good contacts Wheaton coaches cultivate with the coaches of Christian high schools (which is the source of a high percentage of WC student-athletes), to bird-dog high-school players who appear to fit the Wheaton profile in all three necessary areas (faith, academics, and athletic ability). Wheaton coaches then follow up upon those contacts. I don't know if they do this or not, but I wouldn't be surprised if Mike Schauer and his fellow Wheaton head coaches also augment those alumni and coaching networks by using scouting services in various parts of the country, keying in on kids whose high schools have tell-tale words such as "Christian", "Lutheran", "Baptist", etc., in their names.

The other side of that is that Wheaton has a very marketable brand in American evangelical circles. The words "Harvard of evangelicalism" make me want to puke, of course , but that sort of nonsense regularly gets attached to Wheaton in both evangelical and secular media. Wheaton's got as high a profile as does any evangelical school in the nation (including D1s such as Liberty or Oral Roberts), and a legitimately-earned rep for high academic standards. I'd wager that most, if not practically all, of the student-athletes in the U.S. with whom Wheaton makes contact in recruiting are already aware of the school -- and that a high percentage of them think of Wheaton favorably even before that contact is made.

It's a very, very different system than the rest of us have. But it obviously works, since Wheaton more than holds its own in the CCIW across the board.

It just seems like many kids would research Christian schools, and then initiate long distance contact with Wheaton or with any other choice of a like-minded school.

I doubt that evangelical kids research schools any more than non-evangelical kids do.

I can tell you, though, both as someone who was raised in an evangelical Christian home and church (and who chose one evangelical school, North Park, over another, Wheaton, when making my decision as a 17-year-old), that the faith aspect often does enter into the equation. If you're less comfortable with the Reformed tradition, then you're less likely to choose Calvin. If you're of a charismatic or Pentecostal bent, then Azusa Pacific or Oral Roberts might have more of an appeal to you. If you feel strongly that you want to be in an all-evangelical environment in which all of your school peers profess the same faith that you do, then Wheaton or Gordon is gonna appeal more to you. If you feel strongly that you want to attend a school that, while explicitly evangelical, doesn't require you to hold those beliefs, then a school like North Park or Hope might be more up your alley.

As for self-recruited players, or as I like to call them, "D3-style walk-ons", I'm sure that Wheaton has plenty of them. More than other CCIW schools? Dunno about that. But I do know that Mike Schauer and his Wheaton head-coaching peers do an awful lot of work to bring in the players that they want, rather than simply waiting around to get the players who want them.

[Greek Tragedy]

DFLD,

Thanks for the great insight on Nardini.

[Gregory Sager]

Mike Schauer does indeed travel all over the country to recruit players for his program, as does his staff.  He is a very effective in-the-home recruiter who will appeal to parents as well as potential student-athletes.  While Wheaton's "religious philosophy" may be different than most of the CCIW, there are a number of schools that would consider themselves similar in scope around the country.  Wheaton's academic chops along with the philosophy will pique many students' interest in the institution, but rarely do student-athletes just show up without a relationship that is built on interaction with the coach.  Schools with student bodies that are made up differently will adjust their recruitment strategies (athletic and otherwise) to that difference if they want to be successful.

... or I could've just waited for Joe to answer your question far more succinctly than I did, Mark.

I've never witnessed a Mike Schauer home visit, but I'm pretty sure that Joe's second sentence is absolutely true. Heck, if I had a kid who was a high-school basketball player (and if I didn't bleed royal blue and gold), I'd want that kid to play college ball for Mike Schauer.

[USee]

I can say with confidence that Mike Schauer has seen the recruits he cares about in person multiple times via their HS games, AAU, and in home visits. Wheaton recruits most definitely do NOT "recruit themselves".

[USee]

As far as Joe Henricksen, his views aren't the ultimate opinion on Illinois HS Hoops, but I would take his opinion over just about anybody's on here. He has seen all of those top 100 in person. If there is a guy who knows Illinois HS hoops better than Joe, I'd like to meet him. Not gospel, but pretty informed.

[Gregory Sager]

As far as Joe Henricksen, his views aren't the ultimate opinion on Illinois HS Hoops, but I would take his opinion over just about anybody's on here. He has seen all of those top 100 in person. If there is a guy who knows Illinois HS hoops better than Joe, I'd like to meet him. Not gospel, but pretty informed.

No argument here. Mark and I are simply saying that it's not a foregone conclusion that Illinois Wesleyan's going to lap the field in CCIW men's basketball over the next four years because Joe Henrickson listed five future Titans in his recent "100-plus of the top prep players in the state" article. Just to cite a few examples, I'm certain that he didn't list Jordan Robinson (Hoffman Estates) or T.J. Sims (Bloomington) on a similar Class of 2014 list, or Juwan Henry (Bogan) on a 2013 list -- and those three guys won the CCIW Freshman of the Year award for the last two seasons. If he had included them in such a list, I probably would've done the same thing that Bob did.

Joe Henrickson's about as well-informed an independent recruiting analyst as there is, at least in this part of the state. But, as you said, his opinion isn't gospel. It's not science, either.

[AndOne]

And besides Joe Henricksen, there are both several other journalists and scouting service purveyors who are very much on top of the HS hoops scene. Additionally, no matter what analyst you may be talking about, I'd venture to say none are really that familiar with players far removed from the portion of the state in which they are domiciled.

And, carrying this discussion one step further, let's say Mr. Henricksen has the 100 top players in the state absolutely nailed. As IWU has been referenced as an example in the immediate past, lets continue in that vein. In his top 100, Henricksen lists two IWU recruits as PGs (Coleman & Falotico), and two (Bonnett & Gregoire) as SGs. The fact of the matter is only one can play each position at a time. Accordingly, even though they may be among the top 100 players in the state, unless they change positions in college, one of each pair faces the prospect of seeing very little PT over the course of his career. All likely will see no time this year due to the log jam in front of them. And, 2 of them would seem to have an even tougher row to hoe due to the fact that the odds makers have laid heavy money on the prospect that one of the starting guards for the next three years will be a player with a close personal relationship to God Ron Rose.

The bottom line, then, is that even if you're one of the top 100 HS players in Illinois, there is no guarantee of how much, if any, PT you will see at the next level. Much of it has to do with timing. Is there going to be a real opening at my position in my freshman, sophomore, or junior year, or even in my senior year? I suspect this is true not only at IWU, but at many other schools as well.

[AndOne]

I can say with confidence that Mike Schauer has seen the recruits he cares about in person multiple times via their HS games, AAU, and in home visits. Wheaton recruits most definitely do NOT "recruit themselves".

Then, given the scope of the Wheaton roster, WC must have a hell heck of a recruiting travel budget. I'm sure nobody is driving to Idaho, Texas, Florida, or Virginia, and also that an overnight stay would be included in several of the sojourns.

That's why I think a lot of kids that end up at Wheaton know of the school beforehand by reputation, word of mouth from an alum or clergy member, or other means and, once they decide they are interested, make an initial contact by mail or phone rather than waiting to be discovered by a WC coach that may be half the country away. In effect, they recruit themselves by initiating the process.

[Gregory Sager]

I can say with confidence that Mike Schauer has seen the recruits he cares about in person multiple times via their HS games, AAU, and in home visits. Wheaton recruits most definitely do NOT "recruit themselves".

Then, given the scope of the Wheaton roster, WC must have a hell heck of a recruiting travel budget. I'm sure nobody is driving to Idaho, Texas, Florida, or Virginia, and also that an overnight stay would be included in several of the sojourns.

Well, it's certainly bigger than any of the travel budgets enjoyed by the other seven CCIW coaching staffs, for obvious reasons. Plane tickets cost a lot more money than does a tank of gas for the coach's car. But my earlier point was that the Wheaton administration doesn't simply hand the school's athletic department a book of blank checks. I strongly suspect that Wheaton coaches are forced for budgetary reasons to be fairly judicious in how they go about making personal scouting observations and/or sales pitches to far-flung prospects. I'm willing to suspect almost anything of Wheaton, but I don't suspect that Mike Schauer, Mike Swider, Jake DeClute, Matt Husted, etc., are each given the use of private planes.

That's why I think a lot of kids that end up at Wheaton know of the school beforehand by reputation, word of mouth from an alum or clergy member, or other means and, once they decide they are interested, make an initial contact by mail or phone rather than waiting to be discovered by a WC coach that may be half the country away. In effect, they recruit themselves by initiating the process.

No, that's not how it works. They tend to know about Wheaton beforehand, as I said, but the initial contact is typically made by the Wheaton coaches, not by the student-athletes themselves. As I said, the most common way that Wheaton coaches learn about potential WC student-athletes is through the school's alumni network and through Wheaton's various high-school coaching contacts around the country.

[Titan Q]

Mark, I think that you overreacted. You didn't consider the source of that post. You should know by now that augiefan's shtick is to talk up IWU at each and every opportunity whenever it presents itself. He's done this for years.

This is very true.

His Lou Holtz routine really doesn't affect what happens on the hardwood, of course, but the program that's won the most CCIW titles since Ron Rose took over at IWU doesn't belong to the school in Bloomington; it belongs to the school in Rock Island. In fact, augiefan's navy blue and gold has won twice as many CCIW titles during the Rose era as has IWU. Or, to put it another way, Augie's won as many CCIW crowns since 2006-07 (inclusive) as have IWU and NCC put together.

This is obviously true too.  However, this span also includes the first 3 years of the Ron Rose era - 2006-07 when he played with the very thin roster he inherited, and 2007-08 and 2008-09 when his first recruits were freshmen and sophomores respectively.

Here is a look at the 6 seasons since (from the point Rose's first recruits were juniors):

Last 6 years, 2009-10 through 2014-15
* Illinois Wesleyan 64-20 CCIW (.762) -- 2 CCIW titles/6 NCAA appear./15 NCAA wins/2 Final Four
* Augustana 57-27 CCIW (.679) -- 2 CCIW titles/3 NCAA appear./8 NCAA wins/1 Final Four


That tells a little different story.

[USee]

That's why I think a lot of kids that end up at Wheaton know of the school beforehand by reputation, word of mouth from an alum or clergy member, or other means and, once they decide they are interested, make an initial contact by mail or phone rather than waiting to be discovered by a WC coach that may be half the country away. In effect, they recruit themselves by initiating the process.

No, that's not how it works. They tend to know about Wheaton beforehand, as I said, but the initial contact is typically made by the Wheaton coaches, not by the student-athletes themselves. As I said, the most common way that Wheaton coaches learn about potential WC student-athletes is through the school's alumni network and through Wheaton's various high-school coaching contacts around the country.

Exactly. When I came to Wheaton many moons ago my first contact was from an alum. I Had no idea about the school before hand.