MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Gregory Sager]

Greg, I apologize for my intemperate personal attack on iiwwuu - I was over the line to attack a person I do not know (nor want to know).  I just reread all 8 of his posts.  Every single one is an attack on Ron Rose (Coach Rose is a big boy; I'll give him a partial pass on this, however misguided).  However, 6 of his 8 were also personal attacks on Brady Rose (probably would have been 7, but Brady was out for the season before iiwwuu's latest appearance) - that is NOT acceptable.

They weren't personal attacks on Brady Rose at all, Chuck. He challenged Brady Rose's basketball competence and worthiness to play the varsity minutes that he was being given as a freshman by his father. That sort of thing is typical fodder for d3boards.com discussion. He did not challenge Brady Rose's character, attitude, or any other non-basketball attribute in a way that could be considered a personal attack (e.g., Mark's rumor-mongering earlier this season regarding Mark Falotico's personality).

On the other hand, I can see how his criticism of Ron Rose could be construed as a personal attack. It's one thing to criticize a coach for his decision-making regarding personnel, his recruiting, his game management, etc. But to insinuate that he's playing his son over another player in spite of statistical evidence that it's a bad move smacks of accusing a coach of putting his family loyalty over the best interests of the program. If nothing else, that is a charge of a conflict of interest that veers dangerously close to being an attack on Ron Rose's integrity.

I will accept that he is not a 'troll' in the Appleton Rocks sense, but he rather obviously has an ax to grind.  He is well beyond what I would call a 'dissenter'.  I am proud to call myself a dissenter in many areas.  But dissent which is not tethered to reality is delusion, not dissent.  iiwwuu is much closer to a 'conspiracy theorist' (Ron Rose is destroying the team by favoritism to his son) than a 'dissenter'. 

I don't agree, and I think that your green-colored glasses are affecting your view of this situation, Chuck. As I've said, I think that iiwwuu has been wrong about pretty much everything that's he posted since he first appeared here a year ago. (His insistence that IWU lacked big men was simply mind-boggling, for instance.) But what you believe is "dissent which is not tethered to reality" ain't necessarily so as far as the Titans are concerned. I can see how an objective observer last season could've felt that Brady Rose wasn't the guy who should've been playing those minutes. And the insinuation that the reason why he was getting them was because of paternal favoritism, while harsh and (as I said) bordering on an attack upon Ron Rose's personal integrity, was at least plausible from an objective perspective. If nothing else, Brady Rose's relationship to the head coach was the elephant in the room in any discussion last season of his worthiness to play.

Not a dissenter, but an internet troll in every sense of the phrase.

In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into ...

Sorry, but I don't agree. You're assuming that his intent is simple provocation rather than stating a sincerely-held (albeit thoroughly misguided, IMHO) belief. I think that the evidence supports iiwwuu's sincerity. He has taken hold of this Ron-Rose-is-a-bad-coach thing like a terrier with a chew toy, and the fact that he keeps working that particular thesis (he has yet to post on any other topic) has convinced me that he really believes it.

[Gregory Sager]

Current Massey (SoS in parentheses)

    1. Augustana (2)
    5. Elmhurst (6)
  11. North Central (1)
  20. North Park (4)
  63. Illinois Wesleyan (9)
166. Carthage (18)
183. Millikin (20)
212. Wheaton (8)

Massey sez:

@ Elmhurst 82, Wheaton 64 (EC 95% favorite)
@ North Park 82, Millikin 70 (NPU 87% favorite)
@ Augustana 83, Carthage 58 (AC 98% favorite)
@ North Central 78, Illinois Wesleyan 67 (NCC 84% favorite)

[bbfan44]

The home teams are certainly heavy favorites tomorrow.  Doesn't look like any chance for an upset according to the Massey odds.  But, ya never know.

A couple of comments on the Augustana v NCC game this past Wednesday.  I think some posts from a couple of weeks ago seemed to question the "all american" status of Hunter Hill.  He sure played like a great one in this game! Gotta be a first team CCIW and get National recognition as well, I'd say.
I, too, marveled at Jagger Anderson getting to the basket with such agility.  Would love to see a dribbling foot race between him (or is it "he") and Juwan.  And lastly I'll say that while Connor Raridon didn't shoot much, to me it was clear that he was the floor general.  A very smart player.  A high basketball IQ as they say.  Honn had a great game off the bench.

Some of the regular posters here are relegated to watching the games via live streaming.  I too have seen many games on my laptop.  But, I want to say how impressive it is to watch these kids live and in person sitting in the 3rd or 4th row from the floor.  So many of them are so fast and so big.  You just don't necessarily capture that watching the streaming.

In a recent post, I wondered where Coach Schauer had been hiding Michael Winowiecki after he scored more points in one game that he had in the whole season.  Well, he's back in hiding.  Only 4 minutes played on Wednesday.  Not sure I understand the deal there.

[WUPHF]

But, I want to say how impressive it is to watch these kids live and in person sitting in the 3rd or 4th row from the floor.  So many of them are so fast and so big.  You just don't necessarily capture that watching the streaming.

That is the thing about Division III...I have seen my share of Division I games, including some of the best of the Missouri-Kansas Border War games, and sit in the 3rd or 4th row of a Division III game.

[Dennis_Prikkel]

Old nine game schedule

Began December 1967, ended when Carroll left the league

Carthage and Carroll made southern trips, but rarely together

IWU, Millikin and Augie made northern trips, rarely together

In January and February there were usually league games on Tuesday, Wednesday, Friday and Saturday nights. Wheaton played it's mid week home games on Tuesday nights so as not to interfere with mid week Wednesday night services that were popular at local churches at that time.

DGP CCIW PD 1978-1995

I also seem to remember Carthage having to play scheduled games on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday at the end of several seasons.

[Gregory Sager]

But, I want to say how impressive it is to watch these kids live and in person sitting in the 3rd or 4th row from the floor.  So many of them are so fast and so big.  You just don't necessarily capture that watching the streaming.

That is the thing about Division III...I have seen my share of Division I games, including some of the best of the Missouri-Kansas Border War games, and sit in the 3rd or 4th row of a Division III game.

Proximity to the court is one of the biggest selling points for D3 basketball, I think. Once you can convince someone who's never seen a D3 game to attend one, so that that person can see for himself just how high the caliber of play really is (i.e., it's not glorified intramurals, which is what a lot of uninformed people think about D3 hoops), then the ability to sit close to the court -- or almost wherever you'd like, typically -- will probably bring them back again.

[AndOne]

North Central 71
Wheaton.      67

First of all, Wheaton played a very good game giving the host Cardinals all they could handle. I have to believe that if they had played at the level at which they performed last night over the entire season to this point, that they would have 4-5 more wins. The score was tied at the half.

Wheaton

* Michael Winowiecki: Burst out of the closet with 16 points, mainly on the basis of some very impressive shooting. At one point it seemed like none of the Cardinals would be able to contain him, with at least 3 members of the home team not having much luck in attempting to do at one point or another. On top of his box score stats, Winowiecki displayed a bit of an "edge," seemingly telling the
Cards that they couldn't stop him. The tide started to turn when the Cards finally began doing

+ Where has Mike Schauer been hiding Michael Winowiecki all year?? Perhaps he should have unleashed him earlier. Last night, Winowiecki took one and a half times more shots than he had so far all season, and scored twice as many points as he had before last night. And, as stated above, he displayed a edge that has traditionally seemed lacking from many recent Wheaton players/teams.

The home teams are certainly heavy favorites tomorrow.  Doesn't look like any chance for an upset according to the Massey odds.  But, ya never know.

Some of the regular posters here are relegated to watching the games via live streaming.  I too have seen many games on my laptop.  But, I want to say how impressive it is to watch these kids live and in person sitting in the 3rd or 4th row from the floor.  So many of them are so fast and so big.  You just don't necessarily capture that watching the streaming.

In a recent post, I wondered where Coach Schauer had been hiding Michael Winowiecki after he scored more points in one game that he had in the whole season.  Well, he's back in hiding.  Only 4 minutes played on Wednesday.  Not sure I understand the deal there.

Winowiecki's presence in the NCC/WC contest was the first thing I commented on when I did my write up on the game. Based on his performance that evening, I would have bet he would see more PT over the remaining schedule. A couple of WC fans I corresponded with were of the same opinion. The consensus was what does Mike Schauer have to lose? The guys he has been playing regularly haven't exactly been getting the job done-as evidenced by Wheaton's placement in the standings. Winowiecki was a major factor in how Wheaton played against NCC. He also brought a "stop me if you can" attitude to the floor. His "edge" was also something Wheaton could use a lot more of. It was another positive he contributed to the Wheaton attack decides just his points total. Accordingly, "Why isn't Winowiecki seeing more PT"? appears to be a valid question to be asking.

[joehakes]

But, I want to say how impressive it is to watch these kids live and in person sitting in the 3rd or 4th row from the floor.  So many of them are so fast and so big.  You just don't necessarily capture that watching the streaming.

That is the thing about Division III...I have seen my share of Division I games, including some of the best of the Missouri-Kansas Border War games, and sit in the 3rd or 4th row of a Division III game.

Proximity to the court is one of the biggest selling points for D3 basketball, I think. Once you can convince someone who's never seen a D3 game to attend one, so that that person can see for himself just how high the caliber of play really is (i.e., it's not glorified intramurals, which is what a lot of uninformed people think about D3 hoops), then the ability to sit close to the court -- or almost wherever you'd like, typically -- will probably bring them back again.

You are probably one of the few people who now sit farther away from the court than you did as a student. Where you sat you were closer to the floor than the guys taking the ball out of bounds.

[Dennis_Prikkel]

CCIW head coaches hired without previous head coaching experience:

Lee Pfund, Wheaton

Dennie Bridges, Iwu

Dan McCarrell, North Park

Bosko Djurickovic, North Park

[Dennis_Prikkel]

Did Paul Brenegan have previous collegiate head coaching experience?  How about Ron Rose and Steve Littrell?

[Mr. Ypsi]

Did Paul Brenegan have previous collegiate head coaching experience?  How about Ron Rose and Steve Littrell?

Ron Rose's bio on the IWU site list experience as an asst at ONU, asst at Wichita St., plus his hs coaching in the Twin Cities.  So apparently no experience as a college HC (but a few years as a D1 asst).

[iwumichigander]

Greg, I apologize for my intemperate personal attack on iiwwuu - I was over the line to attack a person I do not know (nor want to know).  I just reread all 8 of his posts.  Every single one is an attack on Ron Rose (Coach Rose is a big boy; I'll give him a partial pass on this, however misguided).  However, 6 of his 8 were also personal attacks on Brady Rose (probably would have been 7, but Brady was out for the season before iiwwuu's latest appearance) - that is NOT acceptable.

They weren't personal attacks on Brady Rose at all, Chuck. He challenged Brady Rose's basketball competence and worthiness to play the varsity minutes that he was being given as a freshman by his father. That sort of thing is typical fodder for d3boards.com discussion. He did not challenge Brady Rose's character, attitude, or any other non-basketball attribute in a way that could be considered a personal attack (e.g., Mark's rumor-mongering earlier this season regarding Mark Falotico's personality).

On the other hand, I can see how his criticism of Ron Rose could be construed as a personal attack. It's one thing to criticize a coach for his decision-making regarding personnel, his recruiting, his game management, etc. But to insinuate that he's playing his son over another player in spite of statistical evidence that it's a bad move smacks of accusing a coach of putting his family loyalty over the best interests of the program. If nothing else, that is a charge of a conflict of interest that veers dangerously close to being an attack on Ron Rose's integrity.

I will accept that he is not a 'troll' in the Appleton Rocks sense, but he rather obviously has an ax to grind.  He is well beyond what I would call a 'dissenter'.  I am proud to call myself a dissenter in many areas.  But dissent which is not tethered to reality is delusion, not dissent.  iiwwuu is much closer to a 'conspiracy theorist' (Ron Rose is destroying the team by favoritism to his son) than a 'dissenter'. 

I don't agree, and I think that your green-colored glasses are affecting your view of this situation, Chuck. As I've said, I think that iiwwuu has been wrong about pretty much everything that's he posted since he first appeared here a year ago. (His insistence that IWU lacked big men was simply mind-boggling, for instance.) But what you believe is "dissent which is not tethered to reality" ain't necessarily so as far as the Titans are concerned. I can see how an objective observer last season could've felt that Brady Rose wasn't the guy who should've been playing those minutes. And the insinuation that the reason why he was getting them was because of paternal favoritism, while harsh and (as I said) bordering on an attack upon Ron Rose's personal integrity, was at least plausible from an objective perspective. If nothing else, Brady Rose's relationship to the head coach was the elephant in the room in any discussion last season of his worthiness to play.

Not a dissenter, but an internet troll in every sense of the phrase.

In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into ...

Sorry, but I don't agree. You're assuming that his intent is simple provocation rather than stating a sincerely-held (albeit thoroughly misguided, IMHO) belief. I think that the evidence supports iiwwuu's sincerity. He has taken hold of this Ron-Rose-is-a-bad-coach thing like a terrier with a chew toy, and the fact that he keeps working that particular thesis (he has yet to post on any other topic) has convinced me that he really believes it.

We can agree to disagree on your view.  Eight posts since registering, all on this board and all attacking Ron Rose, Brady Roshe, or unfounded allegations.
If this poster attacked NPU and Tom Slyder, you would have likely set a record for the length or amount of posts 

[AndOne]

But, I want to say how impressive it is to watch these kids live and in person sitting in the 3rd or 4th row from the floor.  So many of them are so fast and so big.  You just don't necessarily capture that watching the streaming.

That is the thing about Division III...I have seen my share of Division I games, including some of the best of the Missouri-Kansas Border War games, and sit in the 3rd or 4th row of a Division III game.

Proximity to the court is one of the biggest selling points for D3 basketball, I think. Once you can convince someone who's never seen a D3 game to attend one, so that that person can see for himself just how high the caliber of play really is (i.e., it's not glorified intramurals, which is what a lot of uninformed people think about D3 hoops), then the ability to sit close to the court -- or almost wherever you'd like, typically -- will probably bring them back again.

And the "uninformed people" includes a lot of high school players. I talk to a lot of kids who want to continue playing beyond HS, but who think the only thing out there in basketball land beyond HS is D1. They think if they can't play at the D1 level, or at least at the D2 level if they are fairly intelligent in addition to being skilled athletically, that they will become failures as far as their continued basketball lives are concerned. The key in much of this misguided intelligence is the word "scholarship." I place much, not all, of the blame for that attitude on AAU coaches. Many of today's top HS players, including many who end up as "failures"  in D3, play AAU ball. There is competition among the various AAU coaches to attract good players to keep their programs viable. One of the recruiting tools these guys use is the promise of visibility by major/mid-major/low-major college coaches, along with the high degree of probability that a (D1 or D2) scholarship will ensue, in large part, due to the "connections" the AAU coach has with major college programs. These guys often convince kids who could be very good D3 players, but who are no more than last player on the bench guys, or maybe even walk-ons on scholarship granting teams, that they are better than they really are. And, that with the AAU coach's help, they will certainly get that athletic scholarship that so often translates to success in the young player's minds. Then when a scholarship fails to materialize and a kid sees D3 is his only other option, he often feels like he has failed. This feeling is often connected with the attitude that the kid is "too good for D3." Often, additional competition for D3 institutions then comes to the forefront in the form of NAIA schools. Kids who failed to secure D1 or D2 offers look to NAIAs in large part, because they will be going to the NAIA on full or partial scholarship. So, they won't be failures after all!
However, when these kids see an actual D3 game, again usually up close, many thankfully develop a new appreciation for the level of play exhibited in most D3 games. NOT glorified intramurals after all!
And sure, some kids need those athletic scholarships for a variety of reasons. But for those who don't, and who can handle things financially with an academically based "package," D3 can certainly offer a level of competition that many players and fans alike don't initially realize, and that certainly doesn't equate to being a (basketball) failure by any stretch of the imagination. 

[Gregory Sager]

Is it a done deal that Bob Bonn is going to hire Stevie D. when Bosko retires, though? Remember, he does not have head-coaching experience -- and (unless I'm forgetting somebody) it's been decades since any CCIW school has hired a head men's basketball coach who did not have prior head-coaching experience.

CCIW head coaches hired without previous head coaching experience:

Lee Pfund, Wheaton (became Wheaton's head coach in 1951-52)

Dennie Bridges, Iwu (became IWU's head coach in 1965-66)

Dan McCarrell, North Park (became NPC's head coach in 1967-68)

Bosko Djurickovic, North Park (became NPC's head coach in 1984-85)

All great coaches, Dennis ... but all ancient history in terms of when they were hired, and thus not really relevant to the conversation with regard to current CCIW hiring tendencies.

Did Paul Brenegan have previous collegiate head coaching experience?  How about Ron Rose and Steve Littrell?

Brenegan is, to the best of my knowledge, the last CCIW hire who did not have previous head-coaching experience. (Therefore, I should've said "decade" singular rather than "decades" plural, since he was given the reins of the NPU job in 2004-05.) Rose was a head coach at Bloomington HS for five seasons, and before that had served as the head coach at Normal Community HS for four seasons.

Tim (not Steve) Littrell didn't have head-coaching experience, as he had been Joe Ramsey's long-time assistant at Millikin. But, again, he was hired by MU all the way back in 1996-97.

[Gregory Sager]

If this poster attacked NPU and Tom Slyder, you would have likely set a record for the length or amount of posts 

I don't think that that's fair. I've repeatedly said that I think iiwwuu's half a bubble out of plumb in terms of the statements he's made vis-a-vis stuff like IWU not having big men, IWU hoarding guards, etc. And I've said that I think his charge last season that Ron Rose was playing his son out of favoritism verged upon being an attack upon the coach's integrity, which I certainly find objectionable -- even though, as I said, the unspoken question would've always been the elephant in the room as far as Brady's playing time was concerned, since, unlike Stevie D. or the two younger Raridon brothers, he didn't really stick out as a you-must-play-him-immediately kind of freshman.

Most of all, nearly the very first thing that I said in this discussion yesterday afternoon was that I wholly agreed with Bob's statement in Rose's defense, which was a citation of Rose's outstanding record over the past six seasons at the helm of IWU.

Yes, we can agree to disagree upon whether or not iiwwuu is sincere. But if he had attacked Tom Slyder I would answered him in the exact same manner that I did with his attack on Ron Rose ... rationally, and with facts.