MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[iwumichigander]

I have never been a fan of Hero Sports and whatever it was before even if they did list the Washington University GRIZZLIES as the best basketball program in Missouri.

and they had IWU as a D2 school!

[AndOne]

Picked vs. Finished in the CCIW in 2015-2016

Picked

1. Augie (48)
2. Elmhurst (44)
3. Wesleyan (35)
4. North Central (32)
5. North Park (26)
6. Wheaton (19)
7. Millikin (13)
8. Carthage (7)

Finished

1. Augie (13-1) Even
2. North Central (12-2) +2
3. Elmhurst (10-4) -1
4. Wesleyan (7-7) -1
5. North Park (6-8) Even
6. Carthage (4-10) +2
7. Millikin (3-11) Even
8. Wheaton (1-13) -2

Is the COY really always automatically the guy whose team finishes first, even if its supposed to? Or is the true COY the one whose team exceeds expectations by the widest margin? Does exceeding expectations and finishing in the upper division matter, or is it solely the plus number that counts? And the guy who is supposed to finish first and does might truly be the COY. But, again, should
it be an automatic deal?
And why is it that way? I'm pretty sure the conference coaches vote for COY in football. And, I think they even vote in women's basketball. Where is the cocsistency? Its about time the CCCIW doesn't just automatically hand the COY award to the guy whose team does what is expected. Where would Augie have finished thus year if Baines, Nadelhoffer, or Bosko had been their coach?

[gordonmann]

Quote from: WUH on Today at 10:36:55 am
I have never been a fan of Hero Sports and whatever it was before even if they did list the Washington University GRIZZLIES as the best basketball program in Missouri.
and they had IWU as a D2 school!

They also refer to William Paterson as the Bears.

[bbfan44]

Picked vs. Finished in the CCIW in 2015-2016

Picked

1. Augie (48)
2. Elmhurst (44)
3. Wesleyan (35)
4. North Central (32)
5. North Park (26)
6. Wheaton (19)
7. Millikin (13)
8. Carthage (7)

Finished

1. Augie (13-1) Even
2. North Central (12-2) +2
3. Elmhurst (10-4) -1
4. Wesleyan (7-7) -1
5. North Park (6-8) Even
6. Carthage (4-10) +2
7. Millikin (3-11) Even
8. Wheaton (1-13) -2

Is the COY really always automatically the guy whose team finishes first, even if its supposed to? Or is the true COY the one whose team exceeds expectations by the widest margin? Does exceeding expectations and finishing in the upper division matter, or is it solely the plus number that counts? And the guy who is supposed to finish first and does might truly be the COY. But, again, should
it be an automatic deal?
And why is it that way? I'm pretty sure the conference coaches vote for COY in football. And, I think they even vote in women's basketball. Where is the cocsistency? Its about time the CCCIW doesn't just automatically hand the COY award to the guy whose team does what is expected. Where would Augie have finished thus year if Baines, Nadelhoffer, or Bosko had been their coach?

So, are you suggesting that the COY should have been either Raridon or Bosko because they did better than expected; and leaning towards Raridon because NC was in the top 4?  No problem here, makes sense.

[Augie6]

Picked vs. Finished in the CCIW in 2015-2016

Picked

1. Augie (48)
2. Elmhurst (44)
3. Wesleyan (35)
4. North Central (32)
5. North Park (26)
6. Wheaton (19)
7. Millikin (13)
8. Carthage (7)

Finished

1. Augie (13-1) Even
2. North Central (12-2) +2
3. Elmhurst (10-4) -1
4. Wesleyan (7-7) -1
5. North Park (6-8) Even
6. Carthage (4-10) +2
7. Millikin (3-11) Even
8. Wheaton (1-13) -2

Is the COY really always automatically the guy whose team finishes first, even if its supposed to? Or is the true COY the one whose team exceeds expectations by the widest margin? Does exceeding expectations and finishing in the upper division matter, or is it solely the plus number that counts? And the guy who is supposed to finish first and does might truly be the COY. But, again, should
it be an automatic deal?
And why is it that way? I'm pretty sure the conference coaches vote for COY in football. And, I think they even vote in women's basketball. Where is the cocsistency? Its about time the CCCIW doesn't just automatically hand the COY award to the guy whose team does what is expected. Where would Augie have finished thus year if Baines, Nadelhoffer, or Bosko had been their coach?

So, are you suggesting that the COY should have been either Raridon or Bosko because they did better than expected; and leaning towards Raridon because NC was in the top 4?  No problem here, makes sense.

Regardless of how it's determined, it tends to work out the same way in football as it does in basketball, to the victor goes the spoils.  Going back to the 2000 season in football, the conference coach of the year has been the champion (or co-champ) every single year, with the exception of 2013.  That was the season that Mike Conway won the award for taking a program that hadn't won a CCIW game in over 12 years to 3 wins in the CCIW, that season.  I think it takes a special season like NPU had that year to not award the COY to the conference champ.  Finishing a spot or two above your predicted finish, doesn't seem to be enough to do it. 

I'll also say that, sometimes, a coach can do a tremendous job by meeting the expectations put on them at the start of the season, particularly when they are as high as the expectations that Augie had on them to begin the season.  Starting the season as the #1 ranked team in the country, puts a target on your back for every team that you play.  Coupled with playing in a very tough conference like the CCIW and completing a 24-1 regular season with the only loss coming in OT, on the road, to a nationally ranked opponent, I think Coach G is very deserving of the COY honor for this year. 

[Titan Q]

I'll also say that, sometimes, a coach can do a tremendous job by meeting the expectations put on them at the start of the season, particularly when they are as high as the expectations that Augie had on them to begin the season.  Starting the season as the #1 ranked team in the country, puts a target on your back for every team that you play.  Coupled with playing in a very tough conference like the CCIW and completing a 24-1 regular season with the only loss coming in OT, on the road, to a nationally ranked opponent, I think Coach G is very deserving of the COY honor for this year.

I agree 100% with this.  Grey Giovanine absolutely deserved to be name CCIW C.O.Y. in my opinion.

[Titan Q]

Also, let's keep in mind...North Central had 2 NCAA Division 2 transfers on the 2015-16 roster, and a freshman who is at least an NCAA Division 2-caliber player.  Not to mention a ton of complementary talent.  Like Grey Giovanine, Todd Raridon had a boatload of talent to work with this season.

I think it's fair to say that when the CCIW coaches voted in the preseason poll way back in October, they were not sure just how good newcomers Alex Sorenson (1st Team all-CCIW) and Connor Raridon (2nd Team all-CCIW) would be...or at least, they took a wait-and-see approach to the two big NCC new guys.  Looking back, in terms of talent, the coaches were way off in picking NCC 4th.

[Gregory Sager]

The CCIW men's basketball COY award, which has only been awarded for ten seasons now, has always been given to the head coach of the league champion. If it's not an automatic award in actual fact, then the voting is strictly pro forma and a meaningless exercise; in the 2010-11 season, in which Augustana and North Central were co-champions, Grey Giovanine and Todd Raridon shared the award.

As far as I can tell, men's basketball is unique in this regard among the league's sports. I know that for football, volleyball, men's soccer, women's soccer, women's basketball, baseball, and softball the COY in those sports is often someone other than the head coach of the championship team. (CCIW softball has a Coaching Staff of the Year award rather than a Coach of the Year award, but the same tendency applies in terms of not necessarily awarding it to the staff of the league champ.)

I'm not entirely certain why men's basketball does it differently. One could theorize that, given the politicking, backbiting, and gamesmanship that is sometimes seen among the league's head coaches in this sport, the automatic award might be something of a universally-accepted way of evading even more rancor. However, the CCIW men's basketball coaches are not unique in terms of their relationship as a group, as the league's football and baseball coaches are also not exactly prone to group hugs. (I don't mean for this to sound as though all of the CCIW's head coaches in the Big Three sports are belligerent towards each other, as that's certainly not the case at all. Some coaches appear to be close friends, in fact, and quite a few of them seem to be on good terms and will speak highly of each other. But there are some coaches who harbor animosity towards certain of their peers, and there's coaches as well who don't seem to be too warmly regarded by any of their peers.)

It's possible to overthink this. It may just be a matter of the men's basketball coaches having decided ten years ago to do it this way, and that, given their stubborn resistance to change, they've continued to do it this way ever since. Personally, I'm less irritated by it than Mark is. The way I see it, since the men's basketball coaches don't exactly do a great job in assembling the All-CCIW teams, why should anybody think that they'd do better with the COY?

Regardless of how it's determined, it tends to work out the same way in football as it does in basketball, to the victor goes the spoils.  Going back to the 2000 season in football, the conference coach of the year has been the champion (or co-champ) every single year, with the exception of 2013.  That was the season that Mike Conway won the award for taking a program that hadn't won a CCIW game in over 12 years to 3 wins in the CCIW, that season.  I think it takes a special season like NPU had that year to not award the COY to the conference champ.  Finishing a spot or two above your predicted finish, doesn't seem to be enough to do it.

I'll agree with that, but the awarding of CCIW football COY to Mike Conway in 2013 is a precedent that men's basketball has never matched. Also, since we're talking about football, it should be noted that in the years in which there's been co-champions or tri-champions the COY has only been awarded to one of the coaches sharing the championship, not to all of them. As I said above, in men's basketball the spoils system is followed so scrupulously that in 2011 Giovanine and Raridon shared the award.

I'll also say that, sometimes, a coach can do a tremendous job by meeting the expectations put on them at the start of the season, particularly when they are as high as the expectations that Augie had on them to begin the season.  Starting the season as the #1 ranked team in the country, puts a target on your back for every team that you play.  Coupled with playing in a very tough conference like the CCIW and completing a 24-1 regular season with the only loss coming in OT, on the road, to a nationally ranked opponent, I think Coach G is very deserving of the COY honor for this year.

I agree 100% with this.  Grey Giovanine absolutely deserved to be name CCIW C.O.Y. in my opinion.

I agree, too.

Also, let's keep in mind...North Central had 2 NCAA Division 2 transfers on the 2015-16 roster, and a freshman who is at least an NCAA Division 2-caliber player.  Not to mention a ton of complementary talent.  Like Grey Giovanine, Todd Raridon had a boatload of talent to work with this season.

I think it's fair to say that when the CCIW coaches voted in the preseason poll way back in October, they were not sure just how good newcomers Alex Sorenson (1st Team all-CCIW) and Connor Raridon (2nd Team all-CCIW) would be...or at least, they took a wait-and-see approach to the two big NCC new guys.  Looking back, in terms of talent, the coaches were way off in picking NCC 4th.

Well ... the preseason poll is not exactly something on which I'd hang my hat in terms of it always being a thoroughly straightforward representation of the thinking of the coaches, either.

[iwumichigander]

I'll also say that, sometimes, a coach can do a tremendous job by meeting the expectations put on them at the start of the season, particularly when they are as high as the expectations that Augie had on them to begin the season.  Starting the season as the #1 ranked team in the country, puts a target on your back for every team that you play.  Coupled with playing in a very tough conference like the CCIW and completing a 24-1 regular season with the only loss coming in OT, on the road, to a nationally ranked opponent, I think Coach G is very deserving of the COY honor for this year.

I agree 100% with this.  Grey Giovanine absolutely deserved to be name CCIW C.O.Y. in my opinion.

Agree with Augie6, Q and Greg.  Coach G accomplish this season with the adversity this team faced, on and off the court, coming off a Final Four previous season?  It is not as easy as he makes it look.

[iwumichigander]

Regarding all the (annual) discussion on this board about post conference honors. We forget at times why we went to a conference tournament.

We are not a conference of either one and done or, never get a team, in the NCAA tournament even as a Pool C.  Our conference does get an AQ, something not all D3 conferences get.  Prior to the conference tournament, we almost always got the AQ and maybe one Pool C team in.  But, we did not have as much success getting a third team in via Pool C.

The objective of the conference tournament was to give two or three and maybe - when the stars are aligned - a fourth team in or, on the board for discussion.  We did it for competitive reasons, based in part on changes in the ranking criteria and our teams have success in being ranked which helps in SOS and vRRO.

So now we ask four coaching staffs to get another 1 or 2 W's.  We ask them to risk another loss putting their team on the bubble.  We ask them to do this playing one or two teams a third time. 

Greg and others, have been concise and prolific about how hard it is to get a W playing a team a third time. It is high risk with potential high reward.

What do you want at least four coaches to do - have a b***h session with bruised egos (and some big egos I'll add) arguing about something most coaches, ADs, players and fans can't remember from one season to the next?
Or, do you want them to prepare, draw up anew game plan and give we fans and teams a chance to get into the dance?
It works for them.  From where I sit, it works for me.  It should work for you posters too!

[AndOne]

First of all, I think Augie6 is 100% correct when he says that sometimes a coach can do a tremendous job just meeting the expectations placed upon him.

Titan Q says "let's keep in mind," and then reminds us that NCC had 2 D2 transfers on it's roster this year as well as a very talented freshman. All very true. However, if we're asked to keep those facts in mind, let's also keep in mind that Giovanine had each of his top 6 players back from last year's national 2nd place team, and that all 6 were seniors who had all played together for 3 years previously. On the other hand Todd Raridon had only 2 starters (only 1 senior, the other just a soph), and his senior 6th man back from last year's team that wasn't even picked for the national tournament. His starting lineup consisted of the 2 returning starters, 2 transfers (1 JUCO), and the talented freshman. His rotation went only 8 deep. Number 6 was a senior, but numbers 7 and 8 were two more freshman. He had to mold these unfamiliar players into a cohesive unit while playing the acknowledged #1 SOS in the country. And in so doing, he finished one game behind the current #1 team in the country.
His job wasn't tougher than what Giovanine had to do with his top 6 (all seniors) back from last year's national runner up?? I'm not saying Giovanine didn't do a good job. I just don't think he had quite as difficult of a challenge as did Todd Raridon.

Lastly, while I think Raridon, for the reasons I delineated above, was at least as deserving as Giovanine, the primary point/focus of my argument was that I just feel the basketball COY should be determined in the same manner that all or most of the other CsOY are--by a vote. That's all.

[Mr. Ypsi]

I'm gonna agree with AO on this one.  Giovanine was deserving of the award, but I think Raridon was MORE deserving.  Women's basketball seems to be slipping into the same automatic recognition: co-champs Wheaton and IWU yielded co-COY's Madson and Smith.  To me, automatic awards are not even awards - they're just adjuncts to the team trophy.  IMO, Giovanine and Raridon should have at least been co-COYs (and probably a nod to Raridon); and I have nothing against Madson, but think Mia Smith deserved the solo COY: she took a VERY young team picked to finish fifth and tied for the conference title.  I would contend that arguably this was a more impressive coaching job than when she won the national title.

[Augie6]

Lastly, while I think Raridon, for the reasons I delineated above, was at least as deserving as Giovanine, the primary point/focus of my argument was that I just feel the basketball COY should be determined in the same manner that all or most of the other CsOY are--by a vote. That's all.

I agree on this statement, as well.  How it's done in basketball eliminates the possibility of what happened in 2013 in football, where Mike Conway was clearly deserving of the award even though NPU wasn't the conference champ or co-champ.  Ypsi makes a great point that when it's an automatic award, it's not really an award at all, it's just part of the conference championship recognition.  I think it would be more meaningful if it was an annual vote for the COY, but we would still have debates from time to time about who is more deserving of the award.  That being said, it would be good subject matter for  discussions on this board.

[USee]

I definitely would vote for "50 Shades of" Grey Giovanine over Todd "Medium" Rari "Or Well"don as COY.

[mwunder]

to the victor goes the spoils

DING DING!!