MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Gregory Sager]

Dunno why it's true with regard to Wheaton's general student population (Izzy may be right about the dining hall -- I've eaten there a number of times -- even though I sense that he's being a bit tongue-in-cheek ), but it's definitely true for football. In fact, it's a more noticeable phenomenon in the sports that require much larger rosters than basketball, such as football, baseball, and soccer. A quick perusal of recent CCIW football room posts would tell you that; there have been links to recruitment announcements for Augustana, Illinois Wesleyan, Wheaton, and North Central within the past few weeks. Augie's bringing in 55 new football players, IWU has 49 newbies coming in for next season, and North Central has 58.

I haven't said anything on that page yet after listing the first thirty-odd recruits whose names were tweeted by NPU, but North Park's already got well over 40 deposits from new football players, and my guess is that the number of NPU football newbies this fall will be in the fifties. Carthage, as usual, will have a veritable army of freshmen show up at Keller Field for football camp in August, and it's my guess that Millikin and Elmhurst will have their usual sizeable classes as well, as will CCIW prodigal son Carroll.

Wheaton? It announced a crop of 26 newbies. Nevertheless, I don't think that I'm going out on a limb in predicting that, when it's all said and done three years and three months from now, Wheaton will still have one of the larger football senior classes in the CCIW suiting up for their September opener in 2019. It just always turns out that way.

[kiko]

It's definitely true for the general population (I think you can probably find the numbers on US News or one of those sites).

What do you call it when someone Ypsi's a Ypsi? 

[USee]

Wheaton's football roster will be 120 next year, the largest in its history I believe. They intentionally went after a smaller recruiting class and in fact turned away some walk ons.

I am a football guy but the term "rising Junior/Senior" has been familiar to me for many years in basketball recruiting.

[Gregory Sager]

It's definitely true for the general population (I think you can probably find the numbers on US News or one of those sites).

What do you call it when someone Ypsi's a Ypsi? 

Frustrating.

(The amusing thing is that the person for whom this practice of info-begging is named wasn't even a part of this discussion.)

Wheaton's football roster will be 120 next year, the largest in its history I believe. They intentionally went after a smaller recruiting class and in fact turned away some walk ons.

Wheaton head football coach Mike Swider has been getting amazing buy-in from his players over the past few seasons, even by Wheaton's high standards. The attrition rate is incredibly low for Wheaton to have built a 120-man roster with such comparatively small recruiting classes. In that sense, Wheaton football's sort of at the opposite end of the spectrum from Wheaton basketball at the moment; the WC football coaches get so much commitment from their players that very few of those players ever leave the program prior to graduation, while the WC basketball coaches seem to have players dropping by the wayside at a rate that actually looks like other CCIW programs. I don't think it's an accident that the high-commitment Wheaton team has won the last two CCIW titles, while the low-commitment (by WC standards, of course) Wheaton team finished dead last and won only one CCIW game last season.

(My usual caveats apply regarding Mike Schauer's proven ability to produce winning basketball teams, and the very legitimate possibility that he can bring Wheaton back from the cellar at some point.)

[unanimous22]

Is it odd for a rising junior to deposit money for college already?

Why would it be odd? I guess that I'm not sure that I understand the premise behind your question, particularly since Billy Kirby is transferring in to a new school.

My bad, I read that as a HS junior. But obviously not

[GoPerry]

Count me in with you two and Mark as being a bit confused by Mike Schauer's "we intentionally recruited a smaller group" statement. I'm a bit at a loss to see how quality precludes quantity as far as recruiting energies are concerned. I realize that Wheaton's recruiting methodology is a bit different, but the basic principle is still the same. You reach out to as many good players as you possibly can, because you know that you're going to lose out on some who will choose other schools.

I'm also not sure that five newbies is an abnormally small haul by Wheaton basketball standards. Here's the number of freshmen that Wheaton's brought in each year in this decade:

2016-17:   4
2015-16:   8
2014-15:   8
2013-14:   4
2012-13:   6
2011-12:   5
2010-11: 10
2009-10:   2

If you add in the juco sophomore transfer to the four freshmen, this year's crop of five Wheaton newbies is only one player smaller than the average for the decade.

Wheaton's double-barreled admissions stringency -- high academics and test scores plus an evangelical Christian profession of faith -- coupled with the high cost of a Wheaton education means that each Wheaton sport tends to bring in significantly fewer new players per year than do their seven (now eight) CCIW counterparts. The Sonic Atmospheric Disturbance makes up for it by getting kids who collectively have a higher buy-in with regard to playing for their school than do the other CCIW programs; Wheaton's attrition rate (both in terms of staying at the school in general and in specifically staying within the program) is typically much lower than those of the other CCIW schools. Wheaton may only bring in two-thirds as many players in a given year as an Augustana or a North Central or a Carthage, but Wheaton loses so few of them along the way that the Sonic Atmospheric Disturbance often has larger senior classes in its sports than do its CCIW competitors.

The problem is that even Wheaton isn't immune to attrition. Let's look at that Wheaton freshmen chart again and see how many of them were listed on the Wheaton roster as seniors (or as a part of last season's team):

2016-17:   4
2015-16:   8
2014-15:   8 > 6 sophomores
2013-14:   4 > 1 junior
2012-13:   6 > 4 seniors
2011-12:   5 > 2 seniors
2010-11: 10 > 6 seniors
2009-10:   2 > 2 seniors

Some of that attrition is due to injury (e.g., Luis Miller), but some of it is a bit less of that buy-in I talked about than Wheaton's used to getting from its student-athletes.

Mike said in the press release that "we won't have any seniors on our roster next year," which means that the lone 2015-16 junior, 6'7 center Trevor Leach, has already decided that he won't be on next year's team. (That's not a shock, since he got only ten minutes of playing time in four varsity games last season.)

None of this means that Wheaton's going to have any trouble fielding a team, of course. If all 14 players eligible to return (apart from Leach) do in fact come back to play for WC next year, and you add in the five newbies, then Mike Schauer's going to have 19 players. That's a small roster by CCIW standards, but it's certainly more than enough to run a team. He could probably even field a JV team next season, as long as the team stays injury-free. But how many of those 14 returnees are established, CCIW-quality players? And who knows how good the five newbies will be next season? I think that that's probably what Izzy was getting at: fewer players means fewer possibilities of filling all of Wheaton's holes.

You're right of course that WCs admissions standards academically and missionally do make it tougher on recruiting there (well-documented on this board).  And I would argue that is precisely why you have the 'buy-in' and lower attrition that you describe.  And I know that no one is suggesting the higher standards are a recruiting excuse.  I would be disappointed if any of the Thunder coaches accepted that.  It's simply a reality.

Wheaton's recruits including a 2 sport athlete

http://athletics.wheaton.edu/news/2016/6/7/the-thunder-mens-basketball-program-announces-newcomers.aspx

Wheaton was 1-13 in the CCIW last year, lost their 2 best players and 4 rotation seniors. 

Regarding this year's class--"we intentionally pursued a smaller group."   -Mike Schauer.   

I don't want to come across as the Ourhouse of Wheaton College but this statement is a real head scratcher.   I'd think any CCIW coach coming off a 1-13 season would make every effort to bring in as much talent as he can.  You never know exactly how good these kids will be until they get on campus.   I guess now it's clear why the talent level at Wheaton has dropped so much.   Follow up bad seasons with less recruiting. 

Someone tell me I'm wrong.

Believe me, I'm as disappointed with the last 2 seasons as anyone.  But I believe this to be a slight over reach no doubt born of frustration.

I actually don't see much wrong with a class of 5 - in fact, it makes sense to me.  If you aren't losing anybody after next season, then you're basically replenishing your roster with the next 2 classes.  So I see no issue with narrowing your focus and casting a slightly smaller net that includes only A)players who you believe will play right away(or will at least compete for time right away) B) players who fill a specific need (read: height/size/specific skill set) and C) players who don't duplicate what you already have. A and B are obvious.  Regarding C, I for one will happily forgo another 6'2" guard or a 6'5" wing player who doesn't rebound or go to the hoop but just shoots 3s.  I really don't see what it has to do with your prior season results.  I guess when it comes to recruiting, more is 'safer', but not necessarily 'better'.

[Gregory Sager]

You're right of course that WCs admissions standards academically and missionally do make it tougher on recruiting there (well-documented on this board).  And I would argue that is precisely why you have the 'buy-in' and lower attrition that you describe.  And I know that no one is suggesting the higher standards are a recruiting excuse.  I would be disappointed if any of the Thunder coaches accepted that.  It's simply a reality.

The higher standards shouldn't be a recruiting excuse, because I don't think that Wheaton's specific requirements do in fact "make it tougher on recruiting" when you consider the entire picture. Yes, the profile of the high-school senior that Wheaton seeks is narrower than the profile sought by the other eight CCIW schools, but none of the other CCIW schools comes even remotely close to enjoying the national visibility that Wheaton has. Wheaton College is a household name among American evangelicals -- a very positive household name -- and that fact has been true for generations. The number of colleges and universities in D3 that enjoy Wheaton's national name recognition can be counted on two hands. In terms of being a recognizable brand across America, Wheaton's matched by a few UAA schools, a few NESCAC schools, Johns Hopkins (due to the medical school), and that's about it.

I don't think that it's easier for Wheaton to recruit student-athletes than it is for other CCIW schools, and I don't think that it's harder, either. It's just different.

Believe me, I'm as disappointed with the last 2 seasons as anyone.  But I believe this to be a slight over reach no doubt born of frustration.

I actually don't see much wrong with a class of 5 - in fact, it makes sense to me.  If you aren't losing anybody after next season, then you're basically replenishing your roster with the next 2 classes.  So I see no issue with narrowing your focus and casting a slightly smaller net that includes only A)players who you believe will play right away(or will at least compete for time right away) B) players who fill a specific need (read: height/size/specific skill set) and C) players who don't duplicate what you already have. A and B are obvious.  Regarding C, I for one will happily forgo another 6'2" guard or a 6'5" wing player who doesn't rebound or go to the hoop but just shoots 3s.  I really don't see what it has to do with your prior season results.  I guess when it comes to recruiting, more is 'safer', but not necessarily 'better'.

I'm more with Izzy on this. Again, I don't see how smaller is necessarily better. I don't think that you can afford to "narrow your focus" as a recruiter, regardless of the school, because there's never a guarantee that you're going to get the players that you pursue no matter how many or how few are written down on your office whiteboard. If you pursue Smith, Johnson, Williams, Jones, Brown, Davis, Miller, Wilson, and Moore because they all fit your profile, you may end up getting Smith, Williams, Brown, and Miller. Meanwhile, Johnson gets a late D2 scholie offer and decides to take it; you lose Jones in late April to a D3 competitor whose program is in a better place than yours right now; Davis tells you in early May that he's decided that he'd rather not play basketball in college; and at the same time Wilson announces that he's going somewhere else that offered him a better aid package, while Moore tells you over the phone that he wants to go to school closer to home for "to be nearer to my family" (which may or may not actually mean that he's got a girlfriend he doesn't want to leave behind but can't admit it to you because he thinks it'll make him sound like a wimp).

But if Taylor, Anderson, Thomas, and Jackson also fit your recruiting profile, and you decided not to pursue those four seniors because you want to "intentionally recruit a smaller group," then you may have missed out on the chance to bring in five, six, seven, or even eight guys who can help you rather than just four. And if you're coming off of a season in which your team finished in the cellar and only won one conference game, wouldn't you want three or four more opportunities to fill your holes?

[AndOne]

I think the primary consideration with regard to WC bringing in a small recruiting class, and I believe its a point Greg Sager touched on earlier, is not so much the size of the class, but how do they compliment what the Orange already have on board. There is nothing wrong with a class of 5 provided at least a couple of them produce, and I mean quickly.. Otherwise you add another basically empty shelf to a cupboard which doesn't come very fully stocked to begin with. Because Wheaton graduated their 2 best players and 2 other regular rotation seniors, they need productive players NOW. And the laws of probability would seem to suggest the the more players you bring in, the better the chances are that you will add some of that needed talent. Teams like the current NCC and NPU teams ALREADY have considerable talent on board, and in those cases just need to fill in a specific need or two. For instance, NCC needs to replace their graduated 2 guard and sixth man. NPU, of course, has major talent at the guard and small forward spots, and needs bigs with talent. They have the luxury of targeting a specific area or two whereas WC needs to look for almost an entirely new cast.

In looking more closely at the WC personnel, it appears to this poster that the talent levels are highest at the 2G spot in the person of Ricky Samuelson, and at SF where I like Murad Dillard. Mike Schauer needs to find a starting PG, PF, and C from among the returnees or recruits as well as the additional players who will be regular members of the rotation. Somebody will occupy those spots. A bigger recruiting class would have likely increased the chances that the players who eventually do, will fill the Wheaton jerseys not only with a body, but also with the level of talent necessary to lift the Orange up a few rungs on the conference ladder.

Lastly, FWIW, and I realize many WC fans will probably not concur, I agree Wheaton enjoys a very visible national reputation within the evangelical community. And that, because of that degree of visibility and distinguished reputation, the Wheaton recruiting profile casts a wide net that results in their recruiting goals being no more difficult to achieve than any other CCIW member. 

[USee]

I think Wheaton has significantly raised it's profile nationally over the last 10 years, particularly in athletics and that helps. That said, there are still a lot of christian kids who are great athletes and great students that have never heard of Wheaton College in Illinois. To the extent those kids can be identified, they provide a natural pool from which to fish. The challenge is getting out to the places and people who can identify those student athletes so they can be recruited. That's actually pretty difficult on a limited budget. Football does a great job of it because there are now so many Mike Swider proteges who are coaching high school football across the country. Basketball may be a little tougher but clearly it's easier now than it was 10-15 years ago due to the success of the school and programs fueled by the information age with video, social media, etc.

[Gregory Sager]

Holy crapoly. If he received a medical redshirt, he might only be a rising sophomore rather than a rising junior as first reported. 😉

I've since had it confirmed that Billy Kirby did indeed get a med red for his injury-shortened freshman season at Cardinal Stritch, making him a rising sophomore.

I think the primary consideration with regard to WC bringing in a small recruiting class, and I believe its a point Greg Sager touched on earlier, is not so much the size of the class, but how do they compliment what the Orange already have on board. There is nothing wrong with a class of 5 provided at least a couple of them produce, and I mean quickly.. Otherwise you add another basically empty shelf to a cupboard which doesn't come very fully stocked to begin with. Because Wheaton graduated their 2 best players and 2 other regular rotation seniors, they need productive players NOW. And the laws of probability would seem to suggest the the more players you bring in, the better the chances are that you will add some of that needed talent. Teams like the current NCC and NPU teams ALREADY have considerable talent on board, and in those cases just need to fill in a specific need or two. For instance, NCC needs to replace their graduated 2 guard and sixth man. NPU, of course, has major talent at the guard and small forward spots, and needs bigs with talent.

Jordan Robinson's really more of an undersized power forward (or a "stretch four" or "combo forward", depending upon your preference in nomenclature), but that doesn't really affect the point that you're making, with which I agree.

They have the luxury of targeting a specific area or two whereas WC needs to look for almost an entirely new cast.

In looking more closely at the WC personnel, it appears to this poster that the talent levels are highest at the 2G spot in the person of Ricky Samuelson, and at SF where I like Murad Dillard.

Based upon the roller-coaster ride he took last year in terms of his minutes, I have a vague suspicion that you and I like Murad Dillard more than Mike Schauer does.

Mike Schauer needs to find a starting PG, PF, and C from among the returnees or recruits as well as the additional players who will be regular members of the rotation.

Trae Masten's probably the team's breakout talent for next season, based upon what I saw of Wheaton last year. He's long and reasonably quick, has the potential to develop as a shooter, and he can post up smaller perimeter players. But, unless he bulks up a bit and develops a taste for playing inside, he's basically a longer version of Dillard. Right now, they're two players who are more or less fixed as small forwards.

I think Wheaton has significantly raised it's profile nationally over the last 10 years, particularly in athletics and that helps. That said, there are still a lot of christian kids who are great athletes and great students that have never heard of Wheaton College in Illinois.

I think that you may be selling Wheaton's national profile short, USee. While the odd stray ended up at Roberts Wesleyan, Messiah, or Gordon, the three main Christian-college options among the kids from the Covenant church in upstate New York in which I grew up were Wheaton, Houghton, and North Park, in that order of popularity. I was also pretty active in Young Life in the Syracuse area when I was in high school, which meant that I had lots of friends who went to nearby Baptist, Christian & Missionary Alliance, Assemblies of God, Wesleyan, Free Methodist, etc., churches ... and Wheaton was the school that just about all of them at least looked at. When I got to North Park, I heard the same thing from my new NPC friends -- the Minnesota kids were from Covenant churches whose youth either went to North Park, Bethel, or Wheaton (if they didn't just go to the U of M); the Nebraska and Kansas kids were from Covenant churches whose youth chose between North Park, Bethany, and Wheaton; the California Covie kids had churchmates that opted for Wheaton or Biola or Westmont or Azusa Pacific instead of NPC; New Englanders usually had it come down to North Park, Gordon, and Wheaton; and so on. It's why North Park students have always had such a fierce animosity towards Wheaton -- no matter where NPU's Covie kids hail from, Wheaton's where many of their peers from church or Bible camp ended up going to school.

And keep in mind that this was over a generation ago. I don't think that Wheaton's national profile has declined any since then.

Sure, there's relatively new evangelicals (or children of relatively new evangelicals) whose knowledge of Wheaton is pretty fuzzy. But the name recognition is there; even lots of non-evangelicals know about Wheaton's existence. I agree with you, though, that there is a leap to be made in the recruiting process by Wheaton coaches to move from simple name recognition to identify-and-contact.

Nevertheless, North Park -- which is pursuing the same kinds of kids across the country -- would give its metaphorical eyeteeth to have even a fraction of Wheaton's name recognition (as long as it's for the right reasons, rather than a Larycia Hawkins kind of situation).

[WUPHF]

The higher standards shouldn't be a recruiting excuse, because I don't think that Wheaton's specific requirements do in fact "make it tougher on recruiting" when you consider the entire picture. Yes, the profile of the high-school senior that Wheaton seeks is narrower than the profile sought by the other eight CCIW schools, but none of the other CCIW schools comes even remotely close to enjoying the national visibility that Wheaton has. Wheaton College is a household name among American evangelicals -- a very positive household name -- and that fact has been true for generations.

I have to agree with this...Wheaton is nationally and internationally very well known.

I know two of my close friends had Wheaton on their shortlist over 25 years ago...both rural Missouri public school graduates.  I am sure Wheaton admissions never visited our school.

Incidentally, I just asked my 70 year old Dad, a rural Missouri Catholic who never even considered college as a young man if he had ever heard of Wheaton College in Wheaton, Illinois.  His response: sure, of course, I had a friend from high school who went to Wheaton College.  He also had a friend who went to Lawrence.  Not sure if either is true, but...

I do think the fact that there is another Wheaton is a curse, but also a blessing.

[markerickson]

Greg is correct that Bethel in suburban St. Paul is a preferred choice to a certain clientele than the city of Chicago where NPU is planted when the student is a Covie from MN.  These schools have completely different student populations.

[izzy stradlin]

....... And the laws of probability would seem to suggest the the more players you bring in, the better the chances are that you will add some of that needed talent. .....

This is the main reason I would always put as much effort into bringing in as many players as possible.  Even if you land the guys you are recruiting, you really don't have a great idea of what you have until the kid plays against other college players, or goes through a delayed growth spurt.  This is even more pronounced at Wheaton where most players don't play against the somewhat known commodity of Illinois high school basketball. As an example, Tyler Peters was not thought of as one of the top recruits in his class, but that class had 10 players.  You increase your probability of landing 1 (or 2) all-cciw players with each recruit you add.   I think the best coaches know they aren't spectacular at talent evaluation, and just keep recruiting.

Lastly, FWIW, and I realize many WC fans will probably not concur, I agree Wheaton enjoys a very visible national reputation within the evangelical community. And that, because of that degree of visibility and distinguished reputation, the Wheaton recruiting profile casts a wide net that results in their recruiting goals being no more difficult to achieve than any other CCIW member. 

No question.  Wheaton has a specific product to sell and a large population of potential buyers who find that product attractive.  I would say they have a general recruiting advantage over the CCIW average. 

[AndOne]

Lastly, FWIW, and I realize many WC fans will probably not concur, I agree Wheaton enjoys a very visible national reputation within the evangelical community. And that, because of that degree of visibility and distinguished reputation, the Wheaton recruiting profile casts a wide net that results in their recruiting goals being no more difficult to achieve than any other CCIW member. 

No question. Wheaton has a specific product to sell and a large population of potential buyers who find that product attractive.  I would say they have a general recruiting advantage over the CCIW average.

With the primary distinctive advantage being that none of the conference competition sells that same product and, my limited knowledge of the philosophy involved notwithstanding, I believe only one conference foe sells anything even closely resembling the Wheaton brand.

[Gregory Sager]

Lastly, FWIW, and I realize many WC fans will probably not concur, I agree Wheaton enjoys a very visible national reputation within the evangelical community. And that, because of that degree of visibility and distinguished reputation, the Wheaton recruiting profile casts a wide net that results in their recruiting goals being no more difficult to achieve than any other CCIW member. 

No question. Wheaton has a specific product to sell and a large population of potential buyers who find that product attractive.  I would say they have a general recruiting advantage over the CCIW average.

With the primary distinctive advantage being that none of the conference competition sells that same product and, my limited knowledge of the philosophy involved notwithstanding, I believe only one conference foe sells anything even closely resembling the Wheaton brand.

That's a fairly accurate summary. Although the use of the term "closely" might be a bone of contention on the campus of that one conference foe, the resemblance is closer than a lot of the students, staff, and alumni of that one conference foe might want to admit.

If I was going to quibble about anything in your statement, it wouldn't be over the bit about that one conference foe. It'd be more about none of the conference competition selling the same product. Your statement is true, of course. But there really isn't much competition going on in terms of Wheaton going for the same players as other CCIW schools. While the other CCIW programs are competing not only on the floor every winter but also in high-school gyms and in the living rooms of high-school seniors every year as a function of recruiting, Wheaton very rarely bumps up against a CCIW competitor for the same kid. So, while the other eight schools are competitors both in actual games and in recruiting (and, granted, several CCIW schools have parts of their recruiting zones and parameters that don't intersect with anybody else in the league), with Wheaton the rest of the CCIW really isn't direct competition in the recruiting sense.