MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Gregory Sager]

Go,

If a non-evangelical student-athlete wants to go to college and play a sport, he has a multitude of choices to begin, and still likely has several choices after he narrows those choices to either a certain region, type of school, or even to the conference level. I don't know how many colleges across the country subscribe to the same religious philosophy as Wheaton, but I am sure the number can't be classified as multitudinous. Therefore, an evangelical kid has fewer choices which means a school like Wheaton initially has less competition for a kid. Also, as you yourself indicated, WC enjoys a strong national reputation within the community.

Given these facts, it seems to me that the smaller number of Wheaton type schools to begin with, plus Wheaton's top reputation within that relatively small number, combine to actually make Wheaton a very attractive choice. So much so, I would think that often times kids actually recruit themselves TO Wheaton, rather than Wheaton having to always go out searching and competing for their services. Accordingly, I would respectfully submit that while WC certainly doesn't always have an advantage when it comes to recruiting, such is often the case.  JMHO.

I know that "multitudinous" is a vague term, but there's actually a fairly substantial number of evangelical four-year liberal arts colleges in the U.S. There are dozens just within D3, and the NAIA is chock-full of them, to say nothing of NCCAA, USCAA, or schools with no national athletics affiliation (although with some of those NCCAA or USCAA schools the distinction between bona-fide liberal arts college and Bible college with two extra academic years tacked on begins to blur). Just here within the Chicagoland area there's at least a half-dozen schools that fit that description (including NPU), although none of them is a super-close match to Wheaton in terms of the particulars. But you're certainly right that a kid who wants to go to an evangelical four-year liberal arts college has a much narrower field of institutions from which to choose than do his peers who are open to attending a state school or a Catholic school or a more secular private school (or a non-liberal-arts-college school). And I definitely agree with you that sometimes prospective student-athletes recruit themselves to Wheaton; USee indicated here the other day that WC football coach Mike Swider is turning away walk-ons this year:

Wheaton's football roster will be 120 next year, the largest in its history I believe. They intentionally went after a smaller recruiting class and in fact turned away some walk ons.

It all seems to balance out.

The higher standards shouldn't be a recruiting excuse, because I don't think that Wheaton's specific requirements do in fact "make it tougher on recruiting" when you consider the entire picture. Yes, the profile of the high-school senior that Wheaton seeks is narrower than the profile sought by the other eight CCIW schools, but none of the other CCIW schools comes even remotely close to enjoying the national visibility that Wheaton has. Wheaton College is a household name among American evangelicals -- a very positive household name -- and that fact has been true for generations.

I have to agree with this...Wheaton is nationally and internationally very well known.

. . . Yes- among certain types of american evangelical christians, a demographic that is shrinking according to Pew research.  But even this diminishes as you go further out to either coast or into the south/Texas.

It's more well known nationally than the other schools in the league.  But it's nothing like Wash U or practically any of the UAA schools. ( I don't think you meant to imply this either, but I'm trying to identify context and degree).

I strongly disagree. I realize that WUH's examples were just two anecdotes, but they nevertheless show how Wheaton's name recognition goes far beyond the bounds of evangelical America.

The higher standards shouldn't be a recruiting excuse, because I don't think that Wheaton's specific requirements do in fact "make it tougher on recruiting" when you consider the entire picture. Yes, the profile of the high-school senior that Wheaton seeks is narrower than the profile sought by the other eight CCIW schools, but none of the other CCIW schools comes even remotely close to enjoying the national visibility that Wheaton has. Wheaton College is a household name among American evangelicals -- a very positive household name -- and that fact has been true for generations. The number of colleges and universities in D3 that enjoy Wheaton's national name recognition can be counted on two hands. In terms of being a recognizable brand across America, Wheaton's matched by a few UAA schools, a few NESCAC schools, Johns Hopkins (due to the medical school), and that's about it.

I don't think that it's easier for Wheaton to recruit student-athletes than it is for other CCIW schools, and I don't think that it's harder, either. It's just different.

Lastly, FWIW, and I realize many WC fans will probably not concur, I agree Wheaton enjoys a very visible national reputation within the evangelical community. And that, because of that degree of visibility and distinguished reputation, the Wheaton recruiting profile casts a wide net that results in their recruiting goals being no more difficult to achieve than any other CCIW member. 

No question.  Wheaton has a specific product to sell and a large population of potential buyers who find that product attractive.  I would say they have a general recruiting advantage over the CCIW average.

Yes, the Wheaton product is definitely unique, not just regionally but nationally.  And yes Wheaton might represent the 'sweet spot' for certain students.  And it is true that Wheaton enjoys more national recognition (see post above). But I think you guys are over-estimating the national name recognition component as it pertains to the student applicant pool in general which trickles down to the student-athlete applicant pool.
One might think that with such a national profile and higher academic standard that Wheaton's selectivity would be reflected in a lower admissions rate.  But the fact of the matter is that WCs admissions rate is nearly 70% ( I think only Carthage is higher) which reflects the significantly smaller completed & submitted # of applications that Wheaton receives annually than all other CCIW schools.  So would it not stand to reason that WC is also starting with a smaller potential athletics recruit pool to begin with?  I think it's a significant challenge to overcome.

I don't think so, because -- we're really getting into the weeds here -- the number of applications submitted and the admissions rate don't paint an accurate picture for comparison when the schools being compared are really apples and oranges in terms of their selectivity and faith-statement requirements. Wheaton's just different than the other schools in this league, that's all. The smaller number of applications it receives simply reinforces the higher sense of commitment and lower rate of attrition among Wheaton student-athletes, as you yourself noted.

True, there will be some application overlap in the other CCIW schools(student applies to Augie, IWU, and NCC) that would not be applicable to Wheaton.  And you are right that Wheaton is not competing with the other schools in the league in their recruiting.  Those are certainly mitigating factors.  But beginning with a lower # at the outset, and having to go all over the country to find them and/or rely heavily on referrals, represents a  serious challenge in my mind.  I would respectfully disagree that WC has any advantage and could argue the opposite is true.

I've followed the CCIW for three and a half decades now. My understanding of how the various schools in this league operate was aided in no small part by having a good friend in the late Dave Lawrenz who oversaw one of the regions of the country for the Wheaton admissions department. He was very forthcoming about how his school operates -- as a scrupulously honest man who took a great deal of pride in his alma mater and employer, Dave didn't fear transparency, even when talking to someone like me who was, shall we say, a bit less enamored of Wheaton College. Through my observations of the league and my discussions with people like Dave who are or were affiliated with its schools, I've long since come to the conclusion that, all things considered, what I said before about Wheaton -- it's not harder to recruit good student-athletes to go there than it is for other CCIW schools, and it's not easier, either ... it's just different -- is true. And Izzy explains much of why I have come to this conclusion:

Let's just look at the evidence: Wheaton wins. Greg has a good sense of all CCIW athletics and might me able to clarify but I would conservatively guess Wheaton is in the top 2-3 in all-sports winning percentage over the last 20 years.

That sure sounds like you're trying to Ypsi me. I won't look it up, but at worst I'd say that Wheaton is definitely somewhere in the upper half of the league in all-sports winning percentage over the last two decades.

Spring sports like baseball used to be the only issue but that was because until the mid-2000s they were paying a state farm agent and then a grad student a few bucks part-time to be the head coach.

... and once Wheaton got full-time coaches in the bat-and-glove sports the Sonic Atmospheric Disturbance immediately became competitive in them.

Does Wheaton win because their coaching staffs are just that good??? This must be your explanation?  There have definitely been a few special coaching talents at Wheaton (Bean, Swider, Nelson come to mind)

I'd throw Beth Baker into that category, too. For a decade and a half the only question in CCIW women's basketball was whether Beth Baker would win the league title with her Wheaton team or Lori Kerans at Millikin would win it.

but there are great coaches throughout the conference. North Central has hired two program-changing coaches recently in John Thorne and Todd Raridon.  I think Matt Nadelhoffer is a good coach and would be very successful at a Wheaton or Illinois Wesleyan.

I would've had no problem at all with NPU hiring Nadelhoffer, either. It just didn't work out in terms of timing when the Park hired Dylan Howard instead.

I think Tim Rucks was an excellent football coach who had a losing record in the CCIW.

In 1993 Rucks engineered a .500 season as North Park's head coach, the only year since 1968 in which the Vikings gridders didn't end the season with a losing record. That alone makes him one of the greatest football coaches in CCIW history, in my estimation.

This a competitive division 3 conference that is full of good coaches and if you take the average over the last 20 years of all of the different sports it's a wash.

Wheaton wins in general because they have an appealing product to sell and it has obviously given them an advantage.

Yep. And, as I've said before, that advantage plays out into Wheaton having just as many seniors, if not more, as any other program in the league in most sports. And men's basketball is certainly not the only sport in which the team that has the most seniors (or close to it) is at a distinct advantage.

[AndOne]

Recently released figures by the NCAA show that the CCIW led all of Division III in men's basketball attendance during the 2015-16 season.

The conference averaged 875 fans over 96 games for a total attendance of 84,028. The CCIW just edged out the Michigan MIAA which averaged 874 over 81 games for a total of 70,802. The Iowa IIAC, Ohio OAC, and the Wisconsin WIAC, finished 3, 4, and 5 respectively.

Augustana finished second in the nation, averaging 1,757. Hope of the MIAA was the #! team with an average of 2,638.
Three other CCIW schools placed in the top 30 including IWU at #15 with an average of 965, Elmhurst at #18 with an average of 909, and North Central, which averaged 832, at #24.

Attendance Figures for D1, 2, and 3:

http://i.turner.ncaa.com/sites/default/files/images/2016/06/09/2016_release_mens_basketball_attendance_final.pdf

[Gregory Sager]

And the CCIW actually had more fans than were reported by the eight schools. NPU's attendance figures in men's basketball have been consistently low-balled for the past couple of years.

Augustana finished second in the nation, averaging 1,757. Hope of the MIAA was the #! team with an average of 2,638.

Calvin fans would argue that Hope was the #$^@*! team.

[AndOne]

If there's been talk of this on the board this summer then i missed it.  Has anyone heard anything about who might be participating in a summer league this year?

I really haven't gotten into it yet this summer, but so far this summer, games that I know of have been played at IL Tech, Trinity, and Benedictine. I'm pretty sure Elmhurst will also be in the picture. I went over to BU at 6:00 Mon night. Full teams there were from North Central, Elmhurst, Loras, and BU. I think there may have been a player or two from one or two other schools as well, but they didn't have school shirts on so I couldn't tell. I understand games are Monday, Wednesday, and sometimes on Sunday. I don't believe start times are always the same. I will check with the NCC guys as far as an established schedule is concerned.

Much appreciated, Mark. Do they start around 7:00 maybe?

Benedictine hosted for the 4th and last time on Wed. Remaining games will be played at Elmhurst, IIT at 3040 S. Wabash in Chicago (with parking under the tracks), and Trinity Christian at 6601 College Dr. in Palos Heights. Games at EC and Trinity start at 6:00. Those at IIT begin at 7:00. Here is the remaining schedule.

ELMHURST--6/20, 6/22, 7/3, 7/17, 7/18, 7/20, 7/25, 7/27, and 8/18.
IIT--6/26, 6/27, 7/10 and 7/11.
TRINITY CHRISTIAN--6/29, 7/6, 7/13, 8/3, 8/10, and 8/17.
As of now, 8/1 and 8:8 are Open Dates.

Games are to 11 by 2s and 3s. No referees, clocks or trainers. Call your own fouls.

Besides BU and the other 3 above hosts, schools listed on the schedule as ''Other Participating Programs'' are Augie, Aurora, Blackburn, IWU, Judson, Loras, North Central, Roosevelt, and Wheaton.
Again, schools often do not have a full team present, and players from 2 or more teams are often combined.

*!f past summers are a guide, dates and times are always subject to change.
EC--John Baines 630-617-3147
IIT--Todd Kelly 773-369-5932
Trinity Christian--Brandon Nicol 708-239-4782

[Mr. Ypsi]

While I'm proud of the fact that I have become a verb , may the record show that I have never asked (or expected) that people would actually research one of my questions.  I toss them out from time to time because so often someone on here simply KNOWS the answer.  Often they are idle curiosity; if I really care about the answer, I will eventually research it myself.  If YOU care, go for it.  Otherwise ignore it, or tell me where to stick it (though suggestions on where to find the info if not obvious, are always welcome).

BTW, if I remember to do it, researching the "CCIW All-Sports Trophy" is on my 'to-do' list.  (After all, I'm confident that IWU will place pretty high on the list! )

[Mr. Ypsi]

YIKES!!  I seem to have killed CCIW Chat - six days and nothing but crickets.

2015-2016 CCIW All-Sports Trophy:

MEN:
  1. Augie    62
  2. Carthage 60
  3. NCC     57.5
  4. Wheaton 55
  5. IWU      45
  6. Elmhurst 39
  7. Millikin   23
  8. NPU     20.5

WOMEN:
  1. IWU     67.5
  2. Wheaton 57
  3. Carthage 54.5
  4. NCC      52
  5. Augie    45.5
  6. Millikin   25
  7. Elmhurst 23.5
  8. NPU      20

COMBINED:
  1. Carthage  114.5
  2. IWU          112.5
  3. Wheaton   112
  4. NCC          109.5
  5. Augie        107.5
  6. Elmhurst    62.5
  7. Millikin        48
  8. NPU            40.5

Interesting how tight the top five were in the overall athletic department totals, then a drastic drop.

My methodology was what I believe is pretty standard in these sorts of rankings: in sports with all eight schools, 1st place got 8, second 7, etc.  In sports with fewer than all schools, first got the number of participating schools.  In sports with affiliate members, they were simply ignored with the points allocated as though only the full CCIW member schools participated.  Tied positions received the average of the tied places (e.g., Wheaton and IWU tied for first in women's basketball, so each got 7.5 points).

[Titan Q]

YIKES!!  I seem to have killed CCIW Chat - six days and nothing but crickets.

2015-2016 CCIW All-Sports Trophy:

MEN:
  1. Augie    62
  2. Carthage 60
  3. NCC     57.5
  4. Wheaton 55
  5. IWU      45
  6. Elmhurst 39
  7. Millikin   23
  8. NPU     20.5

WOMEN:
  1. IWU     67.5
  2. Wheaton 57
  3. Carthage 54.5
  4. NCC      52
  5. Augie    45.5
  6. Millikin   25
  7. Elmhurst 23.5
  8. NPU      20

COMBINED:
  1. Carthage  114.5
  2. IWU          112.5
  3. Wheaton   112
  4. NCC          109.5
  5. Augie        107.5
  6. Elmhurst    62.5
  7. Millikin        48
  8. NPU            40.5

Interesting how tight the top five were in the overall athletic department totals, then a drastic drop.

My methodology was what I believe is pretty standard in these sorts of rankings: in sports with all eight schools, 1st place got 8, second 7, etc.  In sports with fewer than all schools, first got the number of participating schools.  In sports with affiliate members, they were simply ignored with the points allocated as though only the full CCIW member schools participated.  Tied positions received the average of the tied places (e.g., Wheaton and IWU tied for first in women's basketball, so each got 7.5 points).

2015-16 Learfield Sports Directors' Cup final standings...

http://static.psbin.com/b/0/xxxcdkzo1gyege/DIIIfinal1516standings.pdf

18. Illinois Wesleyan
30. Wheaton
46. North Central
62. Augustana
67. Carthage
136. Elmhurst
271. Millikin
321. North Park

[USee]

As far as Wheaton's athletic recruiting efforts nationally, they certainly are a top choice for the student athletes who want to go to a christian school and Wheaton wins a lot of those battles as a general student body as well as recruiting student athlete's. My experience, however, is that there are not nearly as many borderline D1 athletes who have the faith and academic chops (the "trifecta" if you wil) who are actively looking at christian schools. In fact, many if not most of recruits in that camp haven't heard of Wheaton. I am pretty sure if you ask all of the starting athletes on Wheaton's big athletic teams when they first heard of Wheaton College most of them will say someone reached out to them (family member, coach, Wheaton alum) and a minority will say it's because of Wheaton's national reputation. I know firsthand of dozens of Wheaton athletes who had never heard of Wheaton until they were contacted by a coach or an alum. As their success has proliferated areas of the country, it has helped but if not for Wheaton coaches pounding the pavement to reach out to alums and others in their network (as well as travel to Texas, California, Florida, Atlanta, etc) many of the current student athletes would never have considered Wheaton.

[USee]

Wheaton's basketball team went to Israel for a couple weeks in May. The team visited many sites in the Holy Land and played some games against top teams including the national team. Mike Schauer posted this on the blog for the team's trip:

"...And we played some pretty good basketball as well.  I was very encouraged by our effort and our growth.  Most nights we started 4 rising sophomores and a rising junior.   We played some decent competition including one of Israel's National teams.   We had several guys play extremely well including a young man with a last name that followers of Wheaton Basketball will definitely recognize.  This group showed the ability to play our "old" pressure man-to-man defense as well as push the ball in transition.  I cannot promise too much too soon but I am confident after watching this team perform that this group will be fun to watch.  And will eventually be very good."

[AndOne]

Wheaton's basketball team went to Israel for a couple weeks in May. The team visited many sites in the Holy Land and played some games against top teams including the national team. Mike Schauer posted this on the blog for the team's trip:

"...And we played some pretty good basketball as well.  I was very encouraged by our effort and our growth.  Most nights we started 4 rising sophomores and a rising junior.   We played some decent competition including one of Israel's National teams.   We had several guys play extremely well including a young man with a last name that followers of Wheaton Basketball will definitely recognize.  This group showed the ability to play our "old" pressure man-to-man defense as well as push the ball in transition.  I cannot promise too much too soon but I am confident after watching this team perform that this group will be fun to watch.  And will eventually be very good."

I would guess that the junior to be is Samuelson, and that 3 of next season's sophs are Peters, Masten, and Morrison. I have no idea who the 4th rising soph might be.

For my $ Wheaton's best returning players are Samuelson and Dillard, but Mike Schauer evidently does not share my opinion of Mr. Dillard who was the 💥's #2 rebounder and #4 scorer last season.

[petemcb]

Wheaton's basketball team went to Israel for a couple weeks in May. The team visited many sites in the Holy Land and played some games against top teams including the national team. Mike Schauer posted this on the blog for the team's trip:

"...And we played some pretty good basketball as well.  I was very encouraged by our effort and our growth.  Most nights we started 4 rising sophomores and a rising junior.   We played some decent competition including one of Israel's National teams.   We had several guys play extremely well including a young man with a last name that followers of Wheaton Basketball will definitely recognize.  This group showed the ability to play our "old" pressure man-to-man defense as well as push the ball in transition.  I cannot promise too much too soon but I am confident after watching this team perform that this group will be fun to watch.  And will eventually be very good."

I would guess that the junior to be is Samuelson, and that 3 of next season's sophs are Peters, Masten, and Morrison. I have no idea who the 4th rising soph might be.

For my $ Wheaton's best returning players are Samuelson and Dillard, but Mike Schauer evidently does not share my opinion of Mr. Dillard who was the 💥's #2 rebounder and #4 scorer last season.

Maybe it's your opinion of Samuelson he doesn't share.

[AndOne]

I think I'll take that bet. 🏺 💰

[GoPerry]

As far as Wheaton's athletic recruiting efforts nationally, they certainly are a top choice for the student athletes who want to go to a christian school and Wheaton wins a lot of those battles as a general student body as well as recruiting student athlete's. My experience, however, is that there are not nearly as many borderline D1 athletes who have the faith and academic chops (the "trifecta" if you wil) who are actively looking at christian schools. In fact, many if not most of recruits in that camp haven't heard of Wheaton. I am pretty sure if you ask all of the starting athletes on Wheaton's big athletic teams when they first heard of Wheaton College most of them will say someone reached out to them (family member, coach, Wheaton alum) and a minority will say it's because of Wheaton's national reputation. I know firsthand of dozens of Wheaton athletes who had never heard of Wheaton until they were contacted by a coach or an alum. As their success has proliferated areas of the country, it has helped but if not for Wheaton coaches pounding the pavement to reach out to alums and others in their network (as well as travel to Texas, California, Florida, Atlanta, etc) many of the current student athletes would never have considered Wheaton.

Agree USee.  Of course, a kid with alumni parents, family, or close family friends has heard of Wheaton. A christian kid who is attending a christian hs is more likely to have heard of Wheaton.  An otherwise random christian kid attending a public hs school is just as likely to have not heard of Wheaton, especially if they are not in the midwest. 

Wheaton's basketball team went to Israel for a couple weeks in May. The team visited many sites in the Holy Land and played some games against top teams including the national team. Mike Schauer posted this on the blog for the team's trip:

"...And we played some pretty good basketball as well.  I was very encouraged by our effort and our growth.  Most nights we started 4 rising sophomores and a rising junior.   We played some decent competition including one of Israel's National teams.   We had several guys play extremely well including a young man with a last name that followers of Wheaton Basketball will definitely recognize.  This group showed the ability to play our "old" pressure man-to-man defense as well as push the ball in transition.  I cannot promise too much too soon but I am confident after watching this team perform that this group will be fun to watch.  And will eventually be very good."

I would guess that the junior to be is Samuelson, and that 3 of next season's sophs are Peters, Masten, and Morrison. I have no idea who the 4th rising soph might be.

For my $ Wheaton's best returning players are Samuelson and Dillard, but Mike Schauer evidently does not share my opinion of Mr. Dillard who was the 💥's #2 rebounder and #4 scorer last season.

Not sure why you say that about Schauer and Dillard.  If referring to the Israel blog quote, I'm not sure that Dillard accompanied the team on the trip as I did not see him in any of the pictures - not because of a problem but simply might have attended a different Wheaton summer program or just different plan.

[AndOne]

GoPerry-

My comment had nothing to do with the Israel trip. Rather the fact that, after starting for much of the year, he did not start any of the last 5 games, and did not appear at all in 2 of the 5. It just seems like he wasn't being looked at in as positive of a light toward the end of the season as he had been earlier.
I'm not saying he is totally on the outs, but his involvement did seem to decrease as the season progressed. Perhaps some type of injury  factored in. I personally think he is a pretty good player, and would not be surprised to see him be a major contributor for the Orange team this season.

[AppletonRocks]

Carroll is the orange team !!  And they are MWC battle tested !!