MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Titan Q]

I've been very impressed with Coach Nadelhoffer's work ethic and approach to the game.  There was clear progress since that initial year.  Suddenly, the wheels have come off.  What's happened? There appears to have been a lot of attrition, but why?

My take is similar to Greg's...

Having a complete rebuild in front of him, in one of the best conferences in the country, I think Nadelhoffer went hard after the most talented players he could find...and then got burned pretty badly when some of those talented players turned out to have character issues.  And those issues had a negative impact on the culture within the program, and on the ability to recruit. 

I sense Nadelhoffer has basically completely started over, but is doing so using a totally different model.  I have heard he's made character and academics and huge priority in recruiting, and that his freshman class is very impressive (they simply don't have any help this year).  If he lands another class like this one - in terms of talent and character - he will be on his way to the kind of CCIW program he wants.  And then you have to land that same kind of class over and over and over again to build what the top programs in the league have.

I'm pretty sure the A.D. at Millikin is strongly in Nadelhoffer's corner. 

[Gregory Sager]

He has to keep this year's freshman class intact in order for that rebuild to happen, though, and that's not a given. That goes back to augie77's point about attrition issues at Millikin.

It's not easy to get a bunch of 18-year-olds to buy in to the idea that they'll be a part of a successful program when they're juniors and seniors when they're getting spanked soundly every night -- as is almost certainly going to happen in January and February -- while they're freshmen. That's why bottom-dwellers typically have such a hard time hanging on to their players, even when the freshman class is obviously talented.

[Mr. Ypsi]

He has to keep this year's freshman class intact in order for that rebuild to happen, though, and that's not a given. That goes back to augie77's point about attrition issues at Millikin.

It's not easy to get a bunch of 18-year-olds to buy in to the idea that they'll be a part of a successful program when they're juniors and seniors when they're getting spanked soundly every night -- as is almost certainly going to happen in January and February -- while they're freshmen. That's why bottom-dwellers typically have such a hard time hanging on to their players, even when the freshman class is obviously talented.

True.  And if even Nadelhoffer can't pull that off I think Millikin may have only two choices (if they still want to win):

1.  Move to SLIAC, or
2.  Move the whole campus out of Decatur!

It's not surprising that freshmen can have unrealistic expectations.  Beginning with Michigan's 'Fab Five' (before they were born) but continuing with Kentucky recently winning the D1 national title with all freshmen, they haven't necessarily learned that success sometimes requires patience.  In the CCIW (and D3 in general), titles almost always go to upperclassmen-laden teams.

But, then, CCIW and D3 teams are not the ones they grew up watching on TV.

[4samuy]

I know it's still early, but in my opinion Massey does have a couple of things I agree with. 4 CCIW teams and six WIAC teams in the top 28.  The WIAC seems to be pretty impressive early on and there are still a few match ups between the two conferences over the next month.

[Gregory Sager]

He has to keep this year's freshman class intact in order for that rebuild to happen, though, and that's not a given. That goes back to augie77's point about attrition issues at Millikin.

It's not easy to get a bunch of 18-year-olds to buy in to the idea that they'll be a part of a successful program when they're juniors and seniors when they're getting spanked soundly every night -- as is almost certainly going to happen in January and February -- while they're freshmen. That's why bottom-dwellers typically have such a hard time hanging on to their players, even when the freshman class is obviously talented.

True.  And if even Nadelhoffer can't pull that off I think Millikin may have only two choices (if they still want to win):

1.  Move to SLIAC, or
2.  Move the whole campus out of Decatur!

I think that Millikin can make a go of it under Matt Nadelhoffer, as long as the MU administration is willing to be patient with him -- which amounts to giving him a mulligan for the problems he encountered with his first few classes that have essentially put him back at square one this year. I am not sold on the idea that working the south suburbs, which was where MU was working so hard to get its talent under Littrell and Smith, is going to reap a lot of benefits, although I know that Matt's a Chicagoland guy and that that's where he'd like to find players. I just think that Decatur's a pretty steep obstacle for Chicagoland kids, both because of distance and because it's got the reputation of being, as Mark so pithily put it, a pit. But I also understand that northeast Illinois is where the people are, and that MU's commitment to CCIW membership remains rooted in the idea that the school wants a presence in Chicagoland for admissions purposes.

The problem is that the downstate kids south of I-80, who were Millikin's bread and butter during the glory days under Joe Ramsey, represent their own set of problems. First of all, it's not an easy task to recruit from a modest-sized population of high-school ballplayers that are spread out over such a large area, and, second of all, as has been talked about here many times, it's an adjustment for a kid from class 1A or 2A to start matching up with players who came out of bigger high schools. There's also the problem of a dwindling downstate population, where some counties have lost as much as ten to twenty percent of their populations since the turn of the millennium. The coal industry in the far south of the state has bottomed out, the small factories that used to keep the downstate mid-sized towns going have closed, and agribusiness consolidation has kept the rural population down. Increasingly, downstate Illinois is turning into a vast retirement community as the young move out. High schools consolidate or close. Millikin is still likely to get the best players from down there when competing against SLIAC schools on the recruiting trail, but it's not nearly as easy to build your program upon that particular population base as it was back in Ramsey's day.

MU's always been strong at recruiting Decatur players. In that vein, I'd say that the best bet for Millikin is to work the other mid-sized downstate cities such as Peoria, Springfield, Champaign-Urbana, the Quad Cities, and Bloomington-Normal as well. St. Louis should be a good recruiting area for Millikin, provided that out-of-state tuition at Millikin isn't too much of a problem for Missouri kids. Perhaps expanding across the border into Indiana might yield some productive results, too; it's certainly paid off for Elmhurst to recruit the Hoosier State.

I'd be interested in reading Joe Hakes's thoughts on Millikin recruiting.

[joehakes]

Those thoughts would be fascinating, I am sure.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Those thoughts would be fascinating, I am sure.

  (And not likely to come anytime soon, I'd assume.)

I've lost track of the timeline - were you the AD when Matt Nadelhoffer was hired?

It does seem in the abstract that from a line of Peoria to Champaign-Urbana on south, the only primary competition to Millikin would be IWU (and perhaps WashU), but what do I know?

And that territory has historically produced some mighty fine teams - is that still true?  I still remember the 1960 Cobden Appleknockers, who reached the state finals with a population of, what, 75?  And it was always treacherous to play against Pinctney, Carbondale, or Centralia.  I'm almst 50 years out of touch, but does southern Illinois still produce really good bball players?

[augie77]

Washington U draws nationally, and are unlikely to tap a Down-stater--unless the recruit fits their high academic profile.

Back in the 1970s when Millikin was a power they drew heavily from the small towns of Southern Illinois.  Teutopolos was the home of Leon Gobczynski, who regularly scored 40 plus in the 1974 season.

I can't resist mentioning that he scored 43 against Augustana in Decatur.  Three weeks later they played in Rock Island and "The Gob" scored ZERO.  Augustana's Coach Borcherding applied a diamond and one defense that completely confounded Leon.  Millikin still won the conference.  I'm sad to see Millikin fall so far from its glory years.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Washington U draws nationally, and are unlikely to tap a Down-stater--unless the recruit fits their high academic profile.

Back in the 1970s when Millikin was a power they drew heavily from the small towns of Southern Illinois.  Teutopolos was the home of Leon Gobczynski, who regularly scored 40 plus in the 1974 season.

I can't resist mentioning that he scored 43 against Augustana in Decatur.  Three weeks later they played in Rock Island and "The Gob" scored ZERO.  Augustana's Coach Borcherding applied a diamond and one defense that completely confounded Leon.  Millikin still won the conference.  I'm sad to see Millikin fall so far from its glory years.

True, but IWU's profile has risen to nearly that level.  I suspect that at least 1/3 of my classmates wouldn't have been admitted by current standards.  I have no idea of Millikin's current admissions standards, but they may have the 'iffy' admits all to themselves.

BTW, IWU's greatest player also came from a tiny town: Jack Sikma from St. Anne (near Kankakee).

[iwu70]

Any informed predictions, estimations on the IWU-NPU game upcoming?

Warm greetings from the Far Side . . . back in HK now, sunny and in the high 70s.  A long long 19+ hour day yesterday, LA-Tokyo-Hong Kong.  Five movies and then you are there.   

I'll be watching . . . as the jet lag wanes.

IWU70

[augie77]

Washington U draws nationally, and are unlikely to tap a Down-stater--unless the recruit fits their high academic profile.

Back in the 1970s when Millikin was a power they drew heavily from the small towns of Southern Illinois.  Teutopolos was the home of Leon Gobczynski, who regularly scored 40 plus in the 1974 season.

I can't resist mentioning that he scored 43 against Augustana in Decatur.  Three weeks later they played in Rock Island and "The Gob" scored ZERO.  Augustana's Coach Borcherding applied a diamond and one defense that completely confounded Leon.  Millikin still won the conference.  I'm sad to see Millikin fall so far from its glory years.

True, but IWU's profile has risen to nearly that level.  I suspect that at least 1/3 of my classmates wouldn't have been admitted by current standards.  I have no idea of Millikin's current admissions standards, but they may have the 'iffy' admits all to themselves.

BTW, IWU's greatest player also came from a tiny town: Jack Sikma from St. Anne (near Kankakee).

IWU has a strong academic profile, but is primarily an Illinois-based institution.  According to the respective team websites, Washington U has 24 players, and only 5 from Missouri.  By contrast, IWU has 16 from Illinois and four from elsewhere.  Of those four, two are from Missouri and one from Indiana.  In short, Washington University draws nationally and rarely competes for the same players as either Millikin or IWU--though I'm sure it's happened on occasion.

[izzy stradlin]

Washington U draws nationally, and are unlikely to tap a Down-stater--unless the recruit fits their high academic profile.

Back in the 1970s when Millikin was a power they drew heavily from the small towns of Southern Illinois.  Teutopolos was the home of Leon Gobczynski, who regularly scored 40 plus in the 1974 season.

I can't resist mentioning that he scored 43 against Augustana in Decatur.  Three weeks later they played in Rock Island and "The Gob" scored ZERO.  Augustana's Coach Borcherding applied a diamond and one defense that completely confounded Leon.  Millikin still won the conference.  I'm sad to see Millikin fall so far from its glory years.

True, but IWU's profile has risen to nearly that level.  I suspect that at least 1/3 of my classmates wouldn't have been admitted by current standards.  I have no idea of Millikin's current admissions standards, but they may have the 'iffy' admits all to themselves.

BTW, IWU's greatest player also came from a tiny town: Jack Sikma from St. Anne (near Kankakee).

IWU has a strong academic profile, but is primarily an Illinois-based institution.  According to the respective team websites, Washington U has 24 players, and only 5 from Missouri.  By contrast, IWU has 16 from Illinois and four from elsewhere.  Of those four, two are from Missouri and one from Indiana.  In short, Washington University draws nationally and rarely competes for the same players as either Millikin or IWU--though I'm sure it's happened on occasion.

Yeah, IWU is very good school but WUSTL is on another level.   IWU average ACT 27 (from their website). WUSTL 33.     

[augie77]

To further drive home this point, my daughter plays soccer at Calvin College.  They travelled to St Louis to play Washington U in September and found that only ONE of the 31 rostered players was from Missouri.  From the recruiting perspective they're competing with the Ivies, NESCAC and fellow UAA teams far more than they are with the CCIW.

That diverse Wash U soccer team just won the D-3 championship this past Saturday.

[Titan Q]

#16-Illinois Wesleyan (5-1, 0-1) vs #18-North Park (5-0, 1-0), 7:00pm...

#16-Illinois Wesleyan (5-1, 0-1)
G - Brady Rose, 6-3 Jr.   14.2 ppg, 2.8 rpg, 3.2 apg
G - Colin Bonnet, 6-4 So.   11.2 ppg, 1.5 rpg, 2.0 apg
G - Andy Stempel, 6-4 Sr.   14.3 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 3.0 apg
F - Jaylen Beasley, 6-6 Jr.   6.0 ppg, 6.2 rpg
F - Trevor Seibring, 6-8 Sr.   13.0 ppg, 6.2 rpg

F - Alec Bausch, 6-6 Sr.   10.3 ppg, 6.2 rpg
G - Nick Coleman, 6-1 So.  5.7 ppg, 1.7 rpg, 2.8 apg

#18-North Park (5-0, 1-0)
G - Juwan Henry, 5-10 Sr.   24.2 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 2.6 apg
G - Colin Lake - 5-7 Jr.   15.6 ppg, 2.0 rpg, 2.6 apg
G - T.J. Cobbs, 5-10 Sr.   5.0 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 2.8 apg
F - Jordan Robinson, 6-3 Jr.   24.6 ppg, 10.2 rpg, 4.2 apg
F - Darius Brown, 6-3 Sr.   5.4 ppg, 6.0 rpg

G - Billy Kirby, 6-3 So.  4.6 ppg, 1.4 rpg
F - Joe Biko, 6-8 Sr.   3.2 ppg


Video: https://portal.stretchinternet.com/iwu/

WJBC Radio: https://portal.stretchinternet.com/wjbc/

Pantagraph: http://www.pantagraph.com/sports/college/basketball/men/another-ranked-foe-awaits-iwu-basketball-team/article_0c8adaf5-1d3d-5810-b7c4-a09c5911eeca.html

Massey Index: IWU 81 NPU 78  http://www.masseyratings.com/rate.php?s=cb2017&sub=11620

[AndOne]

The CCIW schedule makers must be on something. Why else would they schedule IWU vs. NCC as both teams first conference game on 12/3, and last conference game on 2/18, but yet have NCC and Wheaton playing each other twice within 10 days in Feb.?

Additionally, why are some teams given the advantage of either having their last three games at home or four of their last five at home when other teams have to finish with either their last two or three, or four of their last five on the road. In tight conference race coming down to the wire between pretty evenly matched teams, having to play that many road games at the end of the season when everyone is worn down by the pounding that goes on within a generally very physical conference gives the team with the heavy home schedule down the stretch a tremendous advantage. They don't have to face the rigors of travel, and they enjoy the support of the home crowd during the point of the season where fan interest is often at its highest, which translates to late season crowds being bigger and being able to be even more vociferously supportive. 🔩🔩🔩