MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[AppletonRocks]

The Titans taking Whitewater down twice, the second time by a large margin, in 10 days timeframe can't hurt.  The River Falls game was like all the games they've played against each other the past 2 years, a coin flip. 

Should be interesting, could see the same WIAC team 4 times in a year the way the brackets fall.  Let's hope that happens. 

Feel a little vindicated as my calculator batteries are shot.  Someone on the committee knows they are a beast.

[bbfan44]

There are some things that make me scratch my head, and I know someone can help me clear the cob-webs out of my head.

How can the boys at d3hoops have teams like St Norbert and Dennison ranked in their top 15 list, yet they aren't considered good enough to even be considered for the Tourney because they didn't win their Conference?

I understand the two systems are independent of each other.  But, it seems to me that if the goal is to get to NCAA dance, d3hoops should rank them according to the method the NCAA uses for selection.  Why not?

A subjective poll and the criteria for the NCAA Tournament are apples and oranges. The AP poll means nothing for the D-I NCAA Tournament; why does the D3Hoops poll have to be different?

Also, if you have either a .506 (St. Norbert) or worse, a .477 (Denison) SOS, you don't deserve a Pool C bid, Top 25 team or not.

St. Norbert plays in a weak conference and racks up many easy wins in conference play. It makes for a great looking W/L record every year, but because of the general weakness of the teams they play so many games against, their SOS really suffers. Accordingly, if they don't win their conference tournament, trouble can easily result as seen in their failure to be selected this year.

So, if they do win their Conference, they're the 14th best team, and if they don't win it ( I think it was a 3 point game) they're not even considered (regional ranking) for the Tournament.  I call upon the d3hoops guys to pick the best 25 teams when they vote.  Otherwise, why do it; it's fake news.

[fantastic50]

There are some things that make me scratch my head, and I know someone can help me clear the cob-webs out of my head.

How can the boys at d3hoops have teams like St Norbert and Dennison ranked in their top 15 list, yet they aren't considered good enough to even be considered for the Tourney because they didn't win their Conference?

I understand the two systems are independent of each other.  But, it seems to me that if the goal is to get to NCAA dance, d3hoops should rank them according to the method the NCAA uses for selection.  Why not?

A subjective poll and the criteria for the NCAA Tournament are apples and oranges. The AP poll means nothing for the D-I NCAA Tournament; why does the D3Hoops poll have to be different?

Also, if you have either a .506 (St. Norbert) or worse, a .477 (Denison) SOS, you don't deserve a Pool C bid, Top 25 team or not.

The lowest SOS of any Pool C team was Endicott (.522).  Neither St. Norbert nor Denison were serious candidates.

[iwumichigander]

There are some things that make me scratch my head, and I know someone can help me clear the cob-webs out of my head.

How can the boys at d3hoops have teams like St Norbert and Dennison ranked in their top 15 list, yet they aren't considered good enough to even be considered for the Tourney because they didn't win their Conference?

I understand the two systems are independent of each other.  But, it seems to me that if the goal is to get to NCAA dance, d3hoops should rank them according to the method the NCAA uses for selection.  Why not?

A subjective poll and the criteria for the NCAA Tournament are apples and oranges. The AP poll means nothing for the D-I NCAA Tournament; why does the D3Hoops poll have to be different?

Also, if you have either a .506 (St. Norbert) or worse, a .477 (Denison) SOS, you don't deserve a Pool C bid, Top 25 team or not.

St. Norbert plays in a weak conference and racks up many easy wins in conference play. It makes for a great looking W/L record every year, but because of the general weakness of the teams they play so many games against, their SOS really suffers. Accordingly, if they don't win their conference tournament, trouble can easily result as seen in their failure to be selected this year.

So, if they do win their Conference, they're the 14th best team, and if they don't win it ( I think it was a 3 point game) they're not even considered (regional ranking) for the Tournament.  I call upon the d3hoops guys to pick the best 25 teams when they vote.  Otherwise, why do it; it's fake news.

Denison finished 2nd in conference behind Ohio Northern and ahead of Wooster which won the conference tournament and thus the AQ.  Also in the Great Lakes, Calvin won their conference tournament which put Hooe into play for Pool C.  Imwould suspect Denison was behind at least Hope and Ohio Northern in the Great Lakes.
AndOne is pretty much in the money about St Norbert which being inthe Central Region was not going to get in unless it won their conference tournament.  Do I see why both would be in the Top 15?  Yes,

[AndOne]

I think you may be confusing winning the regular season conference championship with winning the conference tournament.
If they win the conference tournament, they are in the national tournament because the conference tournament winner is an automatic qualifier for the national tournament. If they don't, they have to be selected by the NCAA to participate in the national tournament. The NCAA has a whole set of metrics they use. One of them is strength of schedule which is poor for STN because they play so many weaker teams during the season. The NCAA doesn't go by D3Hoops rankings when selecting teams for the national tournament. Just because a team is ranked 13th by D3Hoops doesn't mean it is going to be selected by the NCAA for it's national tournament. Hope that helps.

[lmitzel]

There are some things that make me scratch my head, and I know someone can help me clear the cob-webs out of my head.

How can the boys at d3hoops have teams like St Norbert and Dennison ranked in their top 15 list, yet they aren't considered good enough to even be considered for the Tourney because they didn't win their Conference?

I understand the two systems are independent of each other.  But, it seems to me that if the goal is to get to NCAA dance, d3hoops should rank them according to the method the NCAA uses for selection.  Why not?

A subjective poll and the criteria for the NCAA Tournament are apples and oranges. The AP poll means nothing for the D-I NCAA Tournament; why does the D3Hoops poll have to be different?

Also, if you have either a .506 (St. Norbert) or worse, a .477 (Denison) SOS, you don't deserve a Pool C bid, Top 25 team or not.

St. Norbert plays in a weak conference and racks up many easy wins in conference play. It makes for a great looking W/L record every year, but because of the general weakness of the teams they play so many games against, their SOS really suffers. Accordingly, if they don't win their conference tournament, trouble can easily result as seen in their failure to be selected this year.

So, if they do win their Conference, they're the 14th best team, and if they don't win it ( I think it was a 3 point game) they're not even considered (regional ranking) for the Tournament.  I call upon the d3hoops guys to pick the best 25 teams when they vote.  Otherwise, why do it; it's fake news.

If they do win their conference they're a Pool A team and we aren't having this conversation.

The poll is an interesting snapshot of who the educated panel of voters thinks are the best 25 teams in D-III, but that's all it is and all it has ever been. It's a point of interest for people but that doesn't mean it has to count for something, hence the AP comparison. I don't know why it has to be based on Tournament criteria. That's what the regional rankings are for. Teams know this going in.

[bbfan44]

There are some things that make me scratch my head, and I know someone can help me clear the cob-webs out of my head.

How can the boys at d3hoops have teams like St Norbert and Dennison ranked in their top 15 list, yet they aren't considered good enough to even be considered for the Tourney because they didn't win their Conference?

I understand the two systems are independent of each other.  But, it seems to me that if the goal is to get to NCAA dance, d3hoops should rank them according to the method the NCAA uses for selection.  Why not?

A subjective poll and the criteria for the NCAA Tournament are apples and oranges. The AP poll means nothing for the D-I NCAA Tournament; why does the D3Hoops poll have to be different?

Also, if you have either a .506 (St. Norbert) or worse, a .477 (Denison) SOS, you don't deserve a Pool C bid, Top 25 team or not.

St. Norbert plays in a weak conference and racks up many easy wins in conference play. It makes for a great looking W/L record every year, but because of the general weakness of the teams they play so many games against, their SOS really suffers. Accordingly, if they don't win their conference tournament, trouble can easily result as seen in their failure to be selected this year.

So, if they do win their Conference, they're the 14th best team, and if they don't win it ( I think it was a 3 point game) they're not even considered (regional ranking) for the Tournament.  I call upon the d3hoops guys to pick the best 25 teams when they vote.  Otherwise, why do it; it's fake news.

If they do win their conference they're a Pool A team and we aren't having this conversation.

The poll is an interesting snapshot of who the educated panel of voters thinks are the best 25 teams in D-III, but that's all it is and all it has ever been. It's a point of interest for people but that doesn't mean it has to count for something, hence the AP comparison. I don't know why it has to be based on Tournament criteria. That's what the regional rankings are for. Teams know this going in.

I'm catching on....but, I have one more question:  If the "educated panel of voters" were to vote again today on the top 25, where would St Norbert  and Dennison be ranked?  And, if they're still in the top 25, it tells me that the NCAA Tourney doesn't try to pick the best 64 teams...which, I guess you all are trying to tell me in round about terms.  They're "stuck" with AQ's and the regional concept.

[AO]

There are some things that make me scratch my head, and I know someone can help me clear the cob-webs out of my head.

How can the boys at d3hoops have teams like St Norbert and Dennison ranked in their top 15 list, yet they aren't considered good enough to even be considered for the Tourney because they didn't win their Conference?

I understand the two systems are independent of each other.  But, it seems to me that if the goal is to get to NCAA dance, d3hoops should rank them according to the method the NCAA uses for selection.  Why not?

A subjective poll and the criteria for the NCAA Tournament are apples and oranges. The AP poll means nothing for the D-I NCAA Tournament; why does the D3Hoops poll have to be different?

Also, if you have either a .506 (St. Norbert) or worse, a .477 (Denison) SOS, you don't deserve a Pool C bid, Top 25 team or not.

St. Norbert plays in a weak conference and racks up many easy wins in conference play. It makes for a great looking W/L record every year, but because of the general weakness of the teams they play so many games against, their SOS really suffers. Accordingly, if they don't win their conference tournament, trouble can easily result as seen in their failure to be selected this year.

So, if they do win their Conference, they're the 14th best team, and if they don't win it ( I think it was a 3 point game) they're not even considered (regional ranking) for the Tournament.  I call upon the d3hoops guys to pick the best 25 teams when they vote.  Otherwise, why do it; it's fake news.

If they do win their conference they're a Pool A team and we aren't having this conversation.

The poll is an interesting snapshot of who the educated panel of voters thinks are the best 25 teams in D-III, but that's all it is and all it has ever been. It's a point of interest for people but that doesn't mean it has to count for something, hence the AP comparison. I don't know why it has to be based on Tournament criteria. That's what the regional rankings are for. Teams know this going in.

I'm catching on....but, I have one more question:  If the "educated panel of voters" were to vote again today on the top 25, where would St Norbert  and Dennison be ranked?  And, if they're still in the top 25, it tells me that the NCAA Tourney doesn't try to pick the best 64 teams...which, I guess you all are trying to tell me in round about terms.  They're "stuck" with AQ's and the regional concept.

They want to get the next best 21 teams in the field, but they limit themselves to a small set of metrics that ignores a teams performance besides wins and losses.  St. Norbert could have won all the games they won by 50 points and it wouldn't help them a bit.

[Dallas Ewing]

Well, according to the final regional rankings, Illinois Wesleyan was at the table at the end.

http://www.d3hoops.com/notables/2017/02/men-regional-rankings-final

Can anyone give an Unbiased reason on why North Park was never even in the discussion of getting in the tournament?

Augustana finishes the season 1-4 in their last 5 games. 1-2 since the last RR and they actually moved up a spot?


North Park has 18 wins .532 SOS and is 4-1 against current RROPO (2-1 Vs Augie). (2-0 vs IWU).

Augustana as is 2-2 VS RROPO. If NP is in the RR, that drops Augustana to 3-4 in RR and IWU to 4-4.

Interesting to see how NP in the RR could have changed things considerably for a couple of teams?

Anyone know the CCIW Rep was?

[Greek Tragedy]

Augie has a slightly better win % and a better SoS. This isn't D1 where they take "the last 10" into account.

If NPU made the rankings, that would probably HELP Augie. 3-4 rRRO is probably better than 2-2. They moved up, despite going 1-2, because Eau Claire went 0-1.

[Dallas Ewing]

. This isn't D1 where they take "the last 10" into account.

I tend to agree. However when it comes to the RR that is being voted on a weekly basis. Going 1-4 to end the year and actually moving up seems a bit erroneous. How any team fares once actually in the RR certainly matters on a weekly basis.

[Gregory Sager]

Well, according to the final regional rankings, Illinois Wesleyan was at the table at the end.

http://www.d3hoops.com/notables/2017/02/men-regional-rankings-final

Can anyone give an Unbiased reason on why North Park was never even in the discussion of getting in the tournament?

Augustana finishes the season 1-4 in their last 5 games. 1-2 since the last RR and they actually moved up a spot?


North Park has 18 wins .532 SOS and is 4-1 against current RROPO (2-1 Vs Augie). (2-0 vs IWU).

Yes, and Carthage, which was also left out in the cold in the final Central Region rankings, was 2-0 against NPU and had a much better SOS while only trailing NPU's winning % by a slight margin.

NPU's SOS was on the low end of the spectrum. As fantastic50 said, Endicott's .522 SOS was as low as the committee was willing to go in that important category. Meanwhile, Endicott's .786 winning % more than made up for the poor SOS. NPU's winning %, on the other hand, was a lackluster .692. In other words, NPU was weakest in the two criteria that have the most impact in the eyes of the committee.

Trust me, if there was any way in the world that NPU would've had a legitimate shot at a Pool C berth this season, yours truly would've been shouting it from the housetops.

Augustana as is 2-2 VS RROPO. If NP is in the RR, that drops Augustana to 3-4 in RR and IWU to 4-4.

Interesting to see how NP in the RR could have changed things considerably for a couple of teams?

I don't think it would've hurt Augie too much if NPU was ranked, because, as Greek Tragedy said, it would add to Augie's overall vRRO résumé. Remember, the committee can use vRRO either on a wins-and-losses basis, or cumulatively as a marker simply of how many regionally ranked opponents the team in question has played. It might've played out the same way for Illinois Wesleyan, although there's obviously a greater chance that an 0-2 is counted as a negative than a 1-2 would have.

Anyone know the CCIW Rep was?

I'm not sure if this is a serious question or if you're being sarcastic, but it's Grey Giovanine of Augustana.

[kiko]

There are some things that make me scratch my head, and I know someone can help me clear the cob-webs out of my head.

How can the boys at d3hoops have teams like St Norbert and Dennison ranked in their top 15 list, yet they aren't considered good enough to even be considered for the Tourney because they didn't win their Conference?

I understand the two systems are independent of each other.  But, it seems to me that if the goal is to get to NCAA dance, d3hoops should rank them according to the method the NCAA uses for selection.  Why not?

A subjective poll and the criteria for the NCAA Tournament are apples and oranges. The AP poll means nothing for the D-I NCAA Tournament; why does the D3Hoops poll have to be different?

Also, if you have either a .506 (St. Norbert) or worse, a .477 (Denison) SOS, you don't deserve a Pool C bid, Top 25 team or not.

St. Norbert plays in a weak conference and racks up many easy wins in conference play. It makes for a great looking W/L record every year, but because of the general weakness of the teams they play so many games against, their SOS really suffers. Accordingly, if they don't win their conference tournament, trouble can easily result as seen in their failure to be selected this year.

So, if they do win their Conference, they're the 14th best team, and if they don't win it ( I think it was a 3 point game) they're not even considered (regional ranking) for the Tournament.  I call upon the d3hoops guys to pick the best 25 teams when they vote.  Otherwise, why do it; it's fake news.

If they do win their conference they're a Pool A team and we aren't having this conversation.

The poll is an interesting snapshot of who the educated panel of voters thinks are the best 25 teams in D-III, but that's all it is and all it has ever been. It's a point of interest for people but that doesn't mean it has to count for something, hence the AP comparison. I don't know why it has to be based on Tournament criteria. That's what the regional rankings are for. Teams know this going in.

I'm catching on....but, I have one more question:  If the "educated panel of voters" were to vote again today on the top 25, where would St Norbert  and Dennison be ranked?  And, if they're still in the top 25, it tells me that the NCAA Tourney doesn't try to pick the best 64 teams...which, I guess you all are trying to tell me in round about terms.  They're "stuck" with AQ's and the regional concept.

For D3, the goal is not and has never been to get the best 64 teams into the tournament field.  It is to provide equal access to the tournament for all qualifying conferences, and then to fill the remaining 21 slots with teams that score best on specific criteria that are designed to account for the fact that comparing two teams from different regions is highly subjective at this level.  (And if you have an issue with equal access being the goal, take it up with the D3 member institutions... they are the ones that set this goal, and it is the same for postseason competition in all D3 sports.)

---

On your earlier question of how a team can go from being ranked in the top 15 to not getting any tournament love following a loss, the answer is that the loss provides new information about the team.  St. Norbert won't show in the top 15 at year-end in part because there is now a "and they lost to a middling Lake Forest team" data point that did not exist before.  Of course voters will recalibrate their assessment of  the Green Knights at that point, and that reassessment won't be pretty when there aren't a lot of other data points to counterbalance the new information.

[iwumichigander]

. This isn't D1 where they take "the last 10" into account.

I tend to agree. However when it comes to the RR that is being voted on a weekly basis. Going 1-4 to end the year and actually moving up seems a bit erroneous. How any team fares once actually in the RR certainly matters on a weekly basis.

you maybe confusing the D3Hoops Top 25 with the NCAA Regionals rankings.  Two separate animals that have nothing to do with each other.

[sac]

There are some things that make me scratch my head, and I know someone can help me clear the cob-webs out of my head.

How can the boys at d3hoops have teams like St Norbert and Dennison ranked in their top 15 list, yet they aren't considered good enough to even be considered for the Tourney because they didn't win their Conference?

I understand the two systems are independent of each other.  But, it seems to me that if the goal is to get to NCAA dance, d3hoops should rank them according to the method the NCAA uses for selection.  Why not?

A subjective poll and the criteria for the NCAA Tournament are apples and oranges. The AP poll means nothing for the D-I NCAA Tournament; why does the D3Hoops poll have to be different?

Also, if you have either a .506 (St. Norbert) or worse, a .477 (Denison) SOS, you don't deserve a Pool C bid, Top 25 team or not.

That answer didn't help.  There are plenty of teams in the D-1 with better records than teams 20 to 25 in the AP poll;  for example, Vermont, Fla Golf Coast, UNC-Wilmington, Monmouth, Middle Tenn....and they aren't ranked because of SOS.  So, again,  if d3 teams have a poor SOS, why rank them?  What is the purpose of the d3 top 25?  One would assume that they are supposed to be the 25 best teams....but, apparently not.

I don't think the D3hoops.com voters are given SOS data