MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Titan Q]

Not to dispute the comparison, but why are Kent Raymond's statlines for overall and conference play identical?

Sorry, corrected...

Season Overall - Raymond Sr Year; Rose Jr Year
* Kent Raymond (2008-09 Season; 27 games), 6-3 Sr G: 23.9 ppg, 3.1 rpg, 3.3 apg (.499 FG, .372 3-point, .883 FT)

* Brady Rose (2017-18 Season; 16 games), 6-3 Jr G: 22.7 ppg, 3.1 rpg, 3.2 apg (.487 FG, .412 3-point, .817 FT)

CCIW-Only - Raymond Sr Year; Rose Jr Year
* Kent Raymond (2008-09 Season, 11 CCIW games), 6-3 Sr G: 24.5 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 2.3 apg (.497 FG, .353 3-point, .871 FT)

* Brady Rose (2017-18 Season; 7 CCIW games), 6-3 Jr G: 25.7 ppg, 4.4 rpg, 3.4 apg (.538 FG, .532 3-point, .853 FT)

[Greek Tragedy]

I laughed when you said he's an excellent passer, but alas, he does average 4.7 assists a game. And yes, 59.7% is impressive, but Samuelson has only thrown up 72 3s in 16 games.

Only? That's 4.5 attempts per game.  It isn't like he's just shooting one or two a night.

I guess we have a difference of opinion then. I also think someone 6 feet tall is HUGE.

[GoPerry]

I laughed when you said he's an excellent passer, but alas, he does average 4.7 assists a game. And yes, 59.7% is impressive, but Samuelson has only thrown up 72 3s in 16 games.

Only? That's 4.5 attempts per game.  It isn't like he's just shooting one or two a night.

I guess we have a difference of opinion then. I also think someone 6 feet tall is HUGE.

Yes.  I was just stating the stat as measured by the NCAA.  There are plenty, both nationally and in the CCIW, who have tossed up many more than 72.  Looks to me like the top 20 nationally have averaged about twice that amount. 

4.5 att/game is not insignificant and I do think nearly 60% for 72 attempts is pretty good.  But I would say that Point's Nate Dodge at 50% or NCC's Mike Pollack at 48%, both with almost 100 attempts, are equally impressive %s.

[USee]

I laughed when you said he's an excellent passer, but alas, he does average 4.7 assists a game. And yes, 59.7% is impressive, but Samuelson has only thrown up 72 3s in 16 games.

Only? That's 4.5 attempts per game.  It isn't like he's just shooting one or two a night.

I guess we have a difference of opinion then. I also think someone 6 feet tall is HUGE.

Yes.  I was just stating the stat as measured by the NCAA.  There are plenty, both nationally and in the CCIW, who have tossed up many more than 72.  Looks to me like the top 20 nationally have averaged about twice that amount. 

4.5 att/game is not insignificant and I do think nearly 60% for 72 attempts is pretty good.  But I would say that Point's Nate Dodge at 50% or NCC's Mike Pollack at 48%, both with almost 100 attempts, are equally impressive %s.

Isn't that the point? If Samuelson leads the nation in 3PT% and has a meaningful amount of attempts per game (4.5 is at least meaningful no?) then shouldn't he be in the top 20 for attempts? It seems to me if he tries 5 more a game and makes 2.5-3 that's a big bump in production, if those are shots taken from a less productive player.

[USee]

Not to dispute the comparison, but why are Kent Raymond's statlines for overall and conference play identical?

Sorry, corrected...

Season Overall - Raymond Sr Year; Rose Jr Year
* Kent Raymond (2008-09 Season; 27 games), 6-3 Sr G: 23.9 ppg, 3.1 rpg, 3.3 apg (.499 FG, .372 3-point, .883 FT)

* Brady Rose (2017-18 Season; 16 games), 6-3 Jr G: 22.7 ppg, 3.1 rpg, 3.2 apg (.487 FG, .412 3-point, .817 FT)

CCIW-Only - Raymond Sr Year; Rose Jr Year
* Kent Raymond (2008-09 Season, 11 CCIW games), 6-3 Sr G: 24.5 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 2.3 apg (.497 FG, .353 3-point, .871 FT)

* Brady Rose (2017-18 Season; 7 CCIW games), 6-3 Jr G: 25.7 ppg, 4.4 rpg, 3.4 apg (.538 FG, .532 3-point, .853 FT)

Kent Raymond's stature as one of the best CCIW players in history was not made over 1 season. I haven't looked but would be interested in the comparison of careers, which is a better measuring stick for KR to any other player.

[blue_jays]

Not to dispute the comparison, but why are Kent Raymond's statlines for overall and conference play identical?

Sorry, corrected...

Season Overall - Raymond Sr Year; Rose Jr Year
* Kent Raymond (2008-09 Season; 27 games), 6-3 Sr G: 23.9 ppg, 3.1 rpg, 3.3 apg (.499 FG, .372 3-point, .883 FT)

* Brady Rose (2017-18 Season; 16 games), 6-3 Jr G: 22.7 ppg, 3.1 rpg, 3.2 apg (.487 FG, .412 3-point, .817 FT)

CCIW-Only - Raymond Sr Year; Rose Jr Year
* Kent Raymond (2008-09 Season, 11 CCIW games), 6-3 Sr G: 24.5 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 2.3 apg (.497 FG, .353 3-point, .871 FT)

* Brady Rose (2017-18 Season; 7 CCIW games), 6-3 Jr G: 25.7 ppg, 4.4 rpg, 3.4 apg (.538 FG, .532 3-point, .853 FT)

Since Bob isn't giving up on this comparison, time to bring out the big guns and un-fog his green glasses. Let's jump in deep.

*DISCLAIMER* - I think Brady Rose is a very-good-to-great player this year, and will likely repeat this kind of performance next year as well. The following comments are not a shot at him in any way. I'm merely pointing out that the Raymond vs. Rose debate clearly favors Raymond almost across the board.

Here's the numbers rundown (click the image below to enlarge it, you may have to scroll to the right to see all the stat columns):



*CONCLUSIONS:
•   Season comparison: Raymond is a noticeably more efficient scorer inside the arc and gets to the line a ton, while also being one of the best FT shooters in the nation. His Assist to Turnover ratio is better and he has a huge lead in steals and blocks, showing his defensive abilities. He also does this while playing fewer minutes than Rose. Even while playing on a stacked team that was #1 in the nation, Raymond also has a significant lead in terms of the percentage of team points that he scores. Rose is the superior three-point shooter who takes more shots overall.
•   Team comparison: Wheaton blew out a lot of teams in 2008-09 with a scoring margin of +13.2 PPG. They were one of the most efficient scoring teams in the nation (.521 FG %) and the three-point percentages are even, with IWU taking twice as many three-point attempts and 10.5 more field goals overall per game. Thusly, IWU scores more points overall and gives up more while shooting a much lower field goal percentage. The IWU numbers can be partly attributed to the change in playstyle over the last decade with teams embracing threes at a significantly higher rate.
•   CCIW trends: This is a composite of all CCIW teams. Scoring, three-pointers and pace of play are up, efficiency is down when comparing 2008-09 and 2017-18 seasons. Changing playstyle of the current era coming into effect.
•   Career: As a four-year starter who led his team in scoring every year, Raymond's numbers speak for themselves. Raymond wins almost every category. His teams also won at a higher rate.

Further points in Raymond's favor:
•   3-time CCIW MVP
•   3-time All-American
•   One of the greatest CCIW players of all-time

•   *NOTE: I didn't include CCIW games because it's too much work and frankly not the point of the exercise. We're not saying who the more productive player is in just CCIW contests. We're looking at overall body of work for this season and career. Also, with the addition of Carroll to the league and the fact that we're only halfway through this year's CCIW schedule, it seems pointless to bring CCIW-only stats into the fray.

[Gregory Sager]

Well done, blue_jays. I'm particularly pleased that you cited Raymond's steals and blocked shots, since one of the things that really separates Raymond from Rose is defense. Raymond was a bulldog at the defensive end of the floor, and (in stark contrast to Mike Schauer with Aston Francis) I strongly doubt that Bill Harris ever felt let down by Raymond's performance at that end of the floor. I can't for the life of me picture Kent Raymond being assigned to guard a player who then goes off for 46 against Raymond's team. (And, to be fair, it's not as though Rose was guarding Colin Lake the entire time; he was, however, Lake's primary defender.)

I don't want this to be interpreted as me slamming Brady Rose. I've already gone on record with my plaudits regarding his prowess. He's just not on Kent Raymond's level, that's all. That's no sin, either. In my 39 years of following this league, the number of CCIW guards whom I think are comparable to Kent Raymond can be counted on one hand ... with fingers left over.

[GoPerry]

Not to dispute the comparison, but why are Kent Raymond's statlines for overall and conference play identical?

Sorry, corrected...

Season Overall - Raymond Sr Year; Rose Jr Year
* Kent Raymond (2008-09 Season; 27 games), 6-3 Sr G: 23.9 ppg, 3.1 rpg, 3.3 apg (.499 FG, .372 3-point, .883 FT)

* Brady Rose (2017-18 Season; 16 games), 6-3 Jr G: 22.7 ppg, 3.1 rpg, 3.2 apg (.487 FG, .412 3-point, .817 FT)

CCIW-Only - Raymond Sr Year; Rose Jr Year
* Kent Raymond (2008-09 Season, 11 CCIW games), 6-3 Sr G: 24.5 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 2.3 apg (.497 FG, .353 3-point, .871 FT)

* Brady Rose (2017-18 Season; 7 CCIW games), 6-3 Jr G: 25.7 ppg, 4.4 rpg, 3.4 apg (.538 FG, .532 3-point, .853 FT)

Since Bob isn't giving up on this comparison, time to bring out the big guns and un-fog his green glasses. Let's jump in deep.

*DISCLAIMER* - I think Brady Rose is a very-good-to-great player this year, and will likely repeat this kind of performance next year as well. The following comments are not a shot at him in any way. I'm merely pointing out that the Raymond vs. Rose debate clearly favors Raymond almost across the board.

Here's the numbers rundown (click the image below to enlarge it):



*CONCLUSIONS:
•   Season comparison: Raymond is a noticeably more efficient scorer inside the arc and gets to the line a ton, while also being one of the best FT shooters in the nation. His Assist to Turnover ratio is better and he has a huge lead in steals and blocks, showing his defensive abilities. He also does this while playing fewer minutes than Rose. Even while playing on a stacked team that was #1 in the nation, Raymond also has a significant lead in terms of the percentage of team points that he scores. Rose is the superior three-point shooter who takes more shots overall.
•   Team comparison: Wheaton blew out a lot of teams in 2008-09 with a scoring margin of +13.2 PPG. They were one of the most efficient scoring teams in the nation (.521 FG %) and the three-point percentages are even, with IWU taking twice as many three-point attempts and 10.5 more field goals overall per game. Thusly, IWU scores more points overall and gives up more while shooting a much lower field goal percentage. The IWU numbers can be partly attributed to the change in playstyle over the last decade with teams embracing threes at a significantly higher rate.
•   CCIW trends: This is a composite of all CCIW teams. Scoring, three-pointers and pace of play are up, efficiency is down when comparing 2008-09 and 2017-18 seasons. Changing playstyle of the current era coming into effect.
•   Career: As a four-year starter who led his team in scoring every year, Raymond's numbers speak for themselves. Raymond wins almost every category. His teams also won at a higher rate.

Further points in Raymond's favor:
•   3-time CCIW MVP
•   3-time All-American
•   One of the greatest CCIW players of all-time

•   *NOTE: I didn't include CCIW games because it's too much work and frankly not the point of the exercise. We're not saying who the more productive player is in just CCIW contests. We're looking at overall body of work for this season and career. Also, with the addition of Carroll to the league and the fact that we're only halfway through this year's CCIW schedule, it seems pointless to bring CCIW-only stats into the fray.

I second the "well done" blue-jays.  Your formatting (click to enlarge - nice) is also quite impressive.  Thanks for putting in this effort for everyone's benefit.

[duckfan41]

Just one last comment on the Raymond/Rose comparison:

There's something to be said about the "wow" factor as well. Whenever I saw Kent play, I was in awe of everything he would do on the floor. Whether that was locking up the other team's top guard on the defensive end, or carving teams up offensively, he did everything exceedingly well and just had that way about his game. The thing to really emphasize though is we are not saying Brady is a bad basketball player, we are just saying that Kent Raymond was in such a class of his own that a comparison can't really be drawn. The career averages highlighted by bluejays illustrate perfectly why. Raymond was dominant from the moment he stepped on campus, and after taking a year off from the game. Brady has developed and improved over his time at IWU, but he hasn't demonstrated consistent domination of the game as Raymond did. Brady very well could make the All-American squad, but Raymond achieved that status 3 times and was CCIW POY 3 times. Elite class of his own, but that can be said while also saying that Brady Rose is a good basketball player in today's game.

[Titan Q]

To clarify, I never intended to suggest that Brady Rose had the start to his career that Kent Raymond had. Rose has been a work in progress, whereas Raymond was a superstar right out of the gates.

But as far as where Rose is right now, I think he is as good as Raymond was as an upperclassmen.  And my praise for Kent Raymond is well documented on this board so I understand what I am saying.  I am also throwing the name Korey Coon in there, and that's quite a name to throw around in IWU/CCIW circles.

I respect anyone who disagrees, but I feel very good about my position on this.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Well done, blue_jays. I'm particularly pleased that you cited Raymond's steals and blocked shots, since one of the things that really separates Raymond from Rose is defense. Raymond was a bulldog at the defensive end of the floor, and (in stark contrast to Mike Schauer with Aston Francis) I strongly doubt that Bill Harris ever felt let down by Raymond's performance at that end of the floor. I can't for the life of me picture Kent Raymond being assigned to guard a player who then goes off for 46 against Raymond's team. (And, to be fair, it's not as though Rose was guarding Colin Lake the entire time; he was, however, Lake's primary defender.)

I don't want this to be interpreted as me slamming Brady Rose. I've already gone on record with my plaudits regarding his prowess. He's just not on Kent Raymond's level, that's all. That's no sin, either. In my 39 years of following this league, the number of CCIW guards whom I think are comparable to Kent Raymond can be counted on one hand ... with fingers left over.

I'm gonna guess you have in mind Steve Djurickovic and Korey Coon - anyone I left out?

[izzy stradlin]

To clarify, I never intended to suggest that Brady Rose had the start to his career that Kent Raymond had. Rose has been a work in progress, whereas Raymond was a superstar right out of the gates.

But as far as where Rose is right now, I think he is as good as Raymond was as an upperclassmen.  And my praise for Kent Raymond is well documented on this board so I understand what I am saying.  I am also throwing the name Korey Coon in there, and that's quite a name to throw around in IWU/CCIW circles.

I respect anyone who disagrees, but I feel very good about my position on this.

Half of the game of basketball and a players value comes on the defensive end. How would you compare Raymond and Rose defensively? 

I think Rose is All-American caliber offensively and probably could have had more touches/better numbers earlier in his career if it weren't for a little reverse nepotism (I mean this as a compliment to his dad who on all accounts seems to be that good of a guy to try not to favor his son, subconsciously maybe). 

I think on defense Kent Raymond was an elite on-the-ball defender.  That's half of a players contribution to winning.

[Titan Q]

Half of the game of basketball and a players value comes on the defensive end. How would you compare Raymond and Rose defensively? 

I think Rose is All-American caliber offensively and probably could have had more touches/better numbers earlier in his career if it weren't for a little reverse nepotism (I mean this as a compliment to his dad who on all accounts seems to be that good of a guy to try not to favor his son, subconsciously maybe). 

I think on defense Kent Raymond was an elite on-the-ball defender.  That's half of a players contribution to winning.

Brady is a strong defender.  He is athletic and quick and is great on the ball.

And you are right about reverse nepotism.  The unfortunate thing about some of the things posted here a few years ago is that whether he will admit it or not, Ron Rose went out of his way to not play Brady as much as he should have his Fr year.

[blue_jays]

To clarify, I never intended to suggest that Brady Rose had the start to his career that Kent Raymond had. Rose has been a work in progress, whereas Raymond was a superstar right out of the gates.

But as far as where Rose is right now, I think he is as good as Raymond was as an upperclassmen.  And my praise for Kent Raymond is well documented on this board so I understand what I am saying.  I am also throwing the name Korey Coon in there, and that's quite a name to throw around in IWU/CCIW circles.

I respect anyone who disagrees, but I feel very good about my position on this.

That's fine, you can be wrong on this one. We can't all bat 1.000 after all.

[iwu70]

Ypsi, yes, Stevie D and Coon for sure.  Perhaps we fill out Greg's hand/fingers with Jesse Price and Tommy Gramkow.  Raymond over the entire career is superior to Rose, so far, no doubt.  But, Brady still has a season and a half to fill out his career resume and then we can see where he stands at the end of the basketball day in the CCIW historical firmament of  point and off-guards . . . and on Greg's hand. 

I must say Rose's stopping on a dime and hitting treys almost at will does remind me of Gramkow's speed and stopping on a dime to hit 15-18 footers, like the one he made to beat ISU in the famous "last game."  Of course, Gramkow played in the pre-arc era and didn't have the range of shooting and styles of slashing to the basket that Rose now has. 

I hope IWU takes Carroll seriously this weekend and comes home with another CCIW road win.  Gotta keep it rolling, no let downs.  All are key wins now for the conference race and the post-season resume. 

'70