MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[CCIWchamps]

One distinct advantage that Carthage and Carroll have is that they are not located in a state that is solvent and funds employee pensions.

*are* ?

[Titan Q]

My take on the loaded Central Region - http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=4097.msg1851940#msg1851940.

[kiko]

Greg, I have no problem with Augie "earning" their win.  They did play good D toward the end.  I was just commenting that they didn't really play all that great -- yes, they do what they do -- we've all seen that over the years, but I just think they are, with performances so far this year, over-rated.  That's all.  As we've seen, they didn't just "do what they do" twice already in league play.   As we all say, any road win in the CCIW is good.  And, they got one against your guys tonight -- but it was pretty close, even with them running guys in and out, as you mentioned.  Lake is struggling, so things could have been different and you would have had the big upset.  Luckily, I don't have to "deal with" anything.  My TITANS did just fine and are sitting solo atop the league at the turn, to my surprise, even as an IWU shill.  If anyone has to "deal with" stuff, it would seem to be the NCC team and fans.  Just IMHO.

IWU'70

If you are disparaging Augie for getting out of the Crackerbox with their pull-away-late win last night, I wonder what you think of Illinois Wesleyan, who came away with a one-point win in the same venue versus the same opponent just one week ago.

Oh, right -- that's totally different...

[Titan Q]

Greg, I have no problem with Augie "earning" their win.  They did play good D toward the end.  I was just commenting that they didn't really play all that great -- yes, they do what they do -- we've all seen that over the years, but I just think they are, with performances so far this year, over-rated.  That's all.  As we've seen, they didn't just "do what they do" twice already in league play.   As we all say, any road win in the CCIW is good.  And, they got one against your guys tonight -- but it was pretty close, even with them running guys in and out, as you mentioned.  Lake is struggling, so things could have been different and you would have had the big upset.  Luckily, I don't have to "deal with" anything.  My TITANS did just fine and are sitting solo atop the league at the turn, to my surprise, even as an IWU shill.  If anyone has to "deal with" stuff, it would seem to be the NCC team and fans.  Just IMHO.

IWU'70

If you are disparaging Augie for getting out of the Crackerbox with their pull-away-late win last night, I wonder what you think of Illinois Wesleyan, who came away with a one-point win in the same venue versus the same opponent just one week ago.

Oh, right -- that's totally different...

(Disclaimer - I don't claim to understand what iwu70 says all the time.)

I think he is referring to the D3hoops.com Top 25 rankings, and the conversation here last week about Augustana (#8, 434 points) relative to IWU (#24, 66 points).  He references Augie being overrated.  So I believe he is pointing out that Augie didn't blow NPU out either.

That is my best guess.

[kiko]

Greg, I have no problem with Augie "earning" their win.  They did play good D toward the end.  I was just commenting that they didn't really play all that great -- yes, they do what they do -- we've all seen that over the years, but I just think they are, with performances so far this year, over-rated.  That's all.  As we've seen, they didn't just "do what they do" twice already in league play.   As we all say, any road win in the CCIW is good.  And, they got one against your guys tonight -- but it was pretty close, even with them running guys in and out, as you mentioned.  Lake is struggling, so things could have been different and you would have had the big upset.  Luckily, I don't have to "deal with" anything.  My TITANS did just fine and are sitting solo atop the league at the turn, to my surprise, even as an IWU shill.  If anyone has to "deal with" stuff, it would seem to be the NCC team and fans.  Just IMHO.

IWU'70

If you are disparaging Augie for getting out of the Crackerbox with their pull-away-late win last night, I wonder what you think of Illinois Wesleyan, who came away with a one-point win in the same venue versus the same opponent just one week ago.

Oh, right -- that's totally different...

(Disclaimer - I don't claim to understand what iwu70 says all the time.)

I think he is referring to the D3hoops.com Top 25 rankings, and the conversation here last week about Augustana (#8, 434 points) relative to IWU (#24, 66 points).  He references Augie being overrated.  So I believe he is pointing out that Augie didn't blow NPU out either.

That is my best guess.

I'm not convinced, since the logic is even more all over the place than usual in this discussion.  If this is about the top 25, then I have no idea why he referenced two conference losses and dragged North Central into the discussion.  The Cardinals (rightly) have not been relevant in a T25 discussion for several weeks now.

It reads like he is grinding on Augie for something that isn't really any different than what Illinois Wesleyan also did recently.

[Augie6]

Greg, I have no problem with Augie "earning" their win.  They did play good D toward the end.  I was just commenting that they didn't really play all that great -- yes, they do what they do -- we've all seen that over the years, but I just think they are, with performances so far this year, over-rated.  That's all.  As we've seen, they didn't just "do what they do" twice already in league play.   As we all say, any road win in the CCIW is good.  And, they got one against your guys tonight -- but it was pretty close, even with them running guys in and out, as you mentioned.  Lake is struggling, so things could have been different and you would have had the big upset.  Luckily, I don't have to "deal with" anything.  My TITANS did just fine and are sitting solo atop the league at the turn, to my surprise, even as an IWU shill.  If anyone has to "deal with" stuff, it would seem to be the NCC team and fans.  Just IMHO.

IWU'70

70,

I would agree that Augie has probably underperformed from their lofty pre-season ranking, but I think it's hard to make a case that they are over-rated.  Just look at the current top 25 and the number of teams ranked in the same range as Augie, and you see a pretty significant number of losses and close games over the past couple of weeks.  #2 UWW lost 2 of its last 5 games and has 2 conference losses.  Augie handily beat #3 Wash U on their home court,.  #4 York lost for the first time this week to Mary Washington (hardly a power D3 program).  #6 UWO has lost their last two games and now has 3 conference losses.  #7 Whitworth lost to Wheaton on their home court (same as Augie).  #9 MIT just lost to Springfield.  #11 Williams lost to Middlebury and now has two conference losses.  And lest we forget, what seemed to start this discussion, was Augie's performance against NPU.  This is the same NPU team that came much closer to beating your CCIW leading Titans, than they did Augie.  What this says to me is that, maybe other than Whitman, there isn't a dominant program in D3 this year.  But to say that Augie is over-rated based on their schedule and performance to date, when compared to other teams in the rankings, I just don't think that holds water.  Just my humble opinion.

[iwumichigander]

My Oh My - we are a little sensitive on the board since late last night 

[Viking Mike]

I agree with Augie6.  Despite North Park closing the gap in the last 5 min, anyone following the game never thought Augie lost control of the game.  Like many good teams in the conference, Augie was able to turn up their defense to another gear, and North Park was held scorless the rest of the way!  When you have a great program and get to the NCAA Championship Game 2 of the last 3 years,  you ALWAYS get everyone's best game!!!

Interesting to see Titan Q's regional rankings.  So difficult to rank when no dominant team so far.  I can see why rankings don't come out for another 2 wks or so.  It is so hard to determine who is better than who.  We will hopefully see some separation of power in that time.  Big game for Augustana Wed at King Arena.  Need this one! 

[Titan Q]

Greg, I have no problem with Augie "earning" their win.  They did play good D toward the end.  I was just commenting that they didn't really play all that great -- yes, they do what they do -- we've all seen that over the years, but I just think they are, with performances so far this year, over-rated.  That's all.  As we've seen, they didn't just "do what they do" twice already in league play.   As we all say, any road win in the CCIW is good.  And, they got one against your guys tonight -- but it was pretty close, even with them running guys in and out, as you mentioned.  Lake is struggling, so things could have been different and you would have had the big upset.  Luckily, I don't have to "deal with" anything.  My TITANS did just fine and are sitting solo atop the league at the turn, to my surprise, even as an IWU shill.  If anyone has to "deal with" stuff, it would seem to be the NCC team and fans.  Just IMHO.

IWU'70

70,

I would agree that Augie has probably underperformed from their lofty pre-season ranking, but I think it's hard to make a case that they are over-rated.  Just look at the current top 25 and the number of teams ranked in the same range as Augie, and you see a pretty significant number of losses and close games over the past couple of weeks.  #2 UWW lost 2 of its last 5 games and has 2 conference losses.  Augie handily beat #3 Wash U on their home court,.  #4 York lost for the first time this week to Mary Washington (hardly a power D3 program).  #6 UWO has lost their last two games and now has 3 conference losses.  #7 Whitworth lost to Wheaton on their home court (same as Augie).  #9 MIT just lost to Springfield.  #11 Williams lost to Middlebury and now has two conference losses.  And lest we forget, what seemed to start this discussion, was Augie's performance against NPU.  This is the same NPU team that came much closer to beating your CCIW leading Titans, than they did Augie.  What this says to me is that, maybe other than Whitman, there isn't a dominant program in D3 this year.  But to say that Augie is over-rated based on their schedule and performance to date, when compared to other teams in the rankings, I just don't think that holds water.  Just my humble opinion.

I also agree that Augustana is not overrated.  The Vikings are a great team and w/ all of the parity out there this year, I think they are just about where they should be.

My beef has been IWU's placement relative to Augustana.  IWU is as good as Augustana - very different teams, but very even - and should be ranked right next to the Vikings. 

I'd like to say IWU and Augie belong at about #13/#14...but then I look at the 12 teams that would be ranked ahead of them and I don't buy that more than 2 are legitimately better (most have just played weaker schedules).  Based on current resumes, I think 8/9 or 9/10 would be right.

[Titan Q]

IWU is now 6-0 since inserting 6-4/205 Jr Jason Gregoire into the staring lineup at the 3. For the first 9 games IWU had a starting perimeter group of:

G - Nick Coleman, 6-2
G - Brady Rose, 6-3
G - Colin Bonnet, 6-4

Now they go:

G - Brady Rose, 6-3
G - Colin Bonnett, 6-4
G/F - Jason Gregoire, 6-4

The Titans have played better on both ends of the floor with this combination.  Playing Rose at the 1 is IWU's biggest competitive advantage in my opinion -- I used to see him as a 2 because of how well it shoots it, but now I'm positive he is best with the ball in his hands.  At the 1, he can penetrate and get to the basket (which he has become outstanding at), hit a 3, penetrate and hit a 15 footer, or find an open teammate.   Bonnett makes for a big/strong 2 who can defend the 2 and is multi-dimensional offensively.  And Gregoire seems to do a lot of thing well - not flashy but a hard worker who makes winning plays, and a good 3-point shooter.

This has been a good move for the Titans. 

[Gregory Sager]

I agree with Augie6.  Despite North Park closing the gap in the last 5 min, anyone following the game never thought Augie lost control of the game.

Not true. Over a 64-second interval, from 11:34 of the second half down to 10:30, NPU got treys from Matt Szuba, Antonio Gardner, and Jack Gurvey to shave a 55-45 deficit down to a single point, 55-54. Augustana was obviously not in control of the game then. And after Augie stretched the lead back a little to 60-54, NPU came right back in the space of 42 seconds with layups from Colin Lake and Gurvey to cut the Augie lead down to two. Again, Augie was not in control. Augie did not assert control again until under the five-minute mark, when it began its 12-0 close-out run.

Augie controlled the vast majority of the game, but not all of it. Trust me, I would not have been excitedly screaming into my microphone in the middle of the second half if Augie had held the reins for the entire forty minutes.

Like many good teams in the conference, Augie was able to turn up their defense to another gear, and North Park was held scorless the rest of the way!  When you have a great program and get to the NCAA Championship Game 2 of the last 3 years,  you ALWAYS get everyone's best game!!!

Augie didn't get North Park's best game. The only two real weapons that NPU has had this season, Colin Lake and Billy Kirby, had a combined 12 points between them. A lot of that was Augie playing great defense, but some of it was the two of them simply playing subpar games as well. As I said yesterday, Colin Lake is pressing right now, and I think that the Carroll debacle on Wednesday helped make him rush too much and take himself out of his flow last night. NPU wouldn't shoot 32% from the field if Augie got the Vikings' best game ... not that this particular NPU team has a high ceiling, of course.

Unfortunately, the best game that North Park has played this season -- the road win at Lake Forest (11-6) -- is now far back in the rear-view mirror.

[Titan Q]

This is the same NPU team that came much closer to beating your CCIW leading Titans, than they did Augie. 

I know the final scores were: IWU 76 NPU 75; Augustana 74 NPU 60.  So technically, according to final scores, you are right of course.

I am not sure if I'd call the IWU/NPU all that "close" though.  IWU...

* Led by 10 at halftime
* Led by 9 at 15:00 2nd
* Led by 14 at the 10:00 2nd
* Led by 13 at 5:00 2nd
* Led by 10 at 1:35 2nd
* Led by 6 at 0:26 2nd
* Led by 3 at 0:14 2nd (and had the ball)

Colin Lake went to the FT line with 2 seconds to play, down 3.  He made both.  Lake had a 90 foot heave at the buzzer that would have won the game.

The only time in the final 33 minutes of the game that NPU had the ball w/ a shot to take the lead was the 90-foot heave at the buzzer.

So yes, the final was 1...and yes things got a little dicey when lake went to the FT line (because he could have intentionally missed the 2nd, and then who knows)...but I don't know, when you think about both games as a whole, was the IWU/NPU game closer than the IWU/Augie game?  Or were they sorta the same overall...but in very different ways?

[Gregory Sager]

Trust me, Bob, last night's game against Augie was not as close as last week's game against IWU.

[Titan Q]

Trust me, Bob, last night's game against Augie was not as close as last week's game against IWU.

I think there is at least some room for personal interpretation there.

Last night:
"Over a 64-second interval, from 11:34 of the second half down to 10:30, NPU got treys from Matt Szuba, Antonio Gardner, and Jack Gurvey to shave a 55-45 deficit down to a single point, 55-54. Augustana was obviously not in control of the game then. And after Augie stretched the lead back a little to 60-54, NPU came right back in the space of 42 seconds with layups from Colin Lake and Gurvey to cut the Augie lead down to two. Again, Augie was not in control. Augie did not assert control again until under the five-minute mark, when it began its 12-0 close-out run."

Last week:
IWU controlled the game; NPU (Colin Lake) had a great final 90 seconds, got within 3, had a 90-foot attempt to win it.

I don't know.

[Gregory Sager]

I do. You measure the closeness of a game by how it plays out at the end. Otherwise, the narrow interval is always qualified: "It was a close game until Team X ran off a 10-0 run midway through the second half ..." or "It was a close game until So-And-So got going, and that's when Team Y pulled away." When a game is described as "close" in an unqualified manner, it always refers to where the score is towards the end of the game. Not necessarily the very end -- hence, the term "not as close as the final score makes it appear," which connotes a game whose final spread grew somewhat in the final minute or two due to the trailing team being forced to foul and the leading team making its free throws. That's a scenario which implies closeness because the trailing team wouldn't be playing quick-foul ball in the first place if it wasn't close. But, that aside, a game that had a ten-point margin with 1:35 left that ends up being winnable for the trailing team at the end of the game is pretty universally considered to be closer than a game that had a two-point margin with five minutes left that the leading team ends up winning by 14 after going on a 12-0 run over those final five minutes.

Heck, the Augie lead was already in double digits going into the final two minutes last night.