MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Titan Q]

Knobloch was the guy who went thug-life on Lake in an attempt to either rile him up enough to retaliate and get thrown out of the game or to hurt him outright. As I said on CCIW Chat after that game two Saturdays ago, I understand and can appreciate, on one level, the gamesmanship involved in what he was doing to Lake. But on another level it was disappointing, because Illinois Wesleyan has never been known to play goon ball. I wasn't the only person who was disappointed with it, either, as a North Park faculty member went out of his way to tell me last week that he wrote a letter to the president of Illinois Wesleyan University expressing his disgust with Knobloch's actions.

Thug-life and goon ball? What in the world?

Knobloch didn't get whistled for a technical foul in that game.  What did Knobloch do that the officials did not see?

[Titan Q]

I'm in Miami Beach and won't have a chance to watch the game tonight.  Hoping for no goon ball.

[Gregory Sager]

It must have been an 11 on the 1-10 scale of aggravated aggression for a NPU faculty member to go so far as to write to the POIWU.

I'm not going to assign a number to it, but it was aggravated and it was blatant. As I said, I don't blame Knobloch for that behavior in a basketball sense, but it's nevertheless disappointing to see that kind of thing from someone within a program that typically doesn't resort to it.

Perhaps thuggery directed at Lake was part of the game plan?

I seriously doubt that. I cannot imagine Ron Rose ever directing a Titan or Titans to goon it up on an opposing player. Granted, I don't know Ron Rose personally, but it would seem to go against everything that I know about him through my own observation and through the attestation to his high character from people whose opinions I trust.

Do we really know if Knobloch is a thug or was that an isolated incident?

It was two incidents, actually, one in each half.

What exactly did he do? Was it more verbal or physical?

I've already described it in detail, Mark, in a post from several days later:

I'd be lying if I said the "Daddy's boy" chants when the Titans come to King don't make me laugh, but you have to give credit where it's due. Brady Rose is a stud and it can be said he is the best guard in the conference. Obviously Aston Francis (my bias) is in the conversation, along with Colin Lake and others, but there's something to be said about Rose's consistent efficiency. He's very fun to watch play the game of basketball (outside of when he picks fights with none other than Aston Francis). 

Rose picks fights with Aston Francis? At the crackerbox last Saturday it was Zach Knobloch for IWU who was out there looking for a scrap. He knocked down Colin Lake at one point and stood over him while glaring downward, clearly daring Colin to get up and start something (until the burly Jason Hines walked over and lightly bumped into Knobloch in a very clear "get away from my boy" enforcer gesture), and then later on underneath the basket during a loose ball Knobloch again knocked Lake to the floor with a severity that was obviously well beyond simple game contact. I didn't blame Knobloch one bit for his antics, because that's part of the game; when an opponent is as unstoppable as Lake was in that game, it only makes sense to try to provoke him into doing something stupid by bullying him (especially when said opponent is 5'7, weighs 145 pounds soaking wet, and therefore isn't likely to make you sprint for the team bus after the game is over). Fortunately, Colin is as smart as he is tough, and he didn't take the bait. It just surprised me because that's not usually the m.o. of an Illinois Wesleyan player. I'd be more likely to associate that edgy sort of gamesmanship with someone wearing Augustana navy blue (although not as much recently as was true 10-15 years ago).

Has he been guilty of such behavior either previously or since? Many generally nice guys will occasionally exhibit unusual behavior. If he is an overly aggressive player is there a chance he learned such behavior elsewhere and brought it with him to Bloomington?

I don't have the answer to any of those questions. All I know about him is that he was at UW-Whitewater as a freshman last season and is a sophomore at IWU this season.

[USee]

Brady Rose through 9 games:
25.2 ppg, 3.7 rpg, 3.9 apg, 1.8 A:TO, .541 FG, .483 3-point, .830 FT. 

Aston Francis:
33 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 4.11 apg, .88 A:TO, 47% FG, 45% 3-Point, 81% FT.

[Titan Q]

Brady Rose through 9 games:
25.2 ppg, 3.7 rpg, 3.9 apg, 1.8 A:TO, .541 FG, .483 3-point, .830 FT. 

Aston Francis:
33 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 4.11 apg, .88 A:TO, 47% FG, 45% 3-Point, 81% FT.

Pretty safe to say Francis is going to be 1st or 2nd Team All-American...just depending on how things fall into place across the country.  He was 2nd Team in the preseason - http://www.d3hoops.com/awards/all-americans/men/preseason-2018. 

I gotta believe he ends up on that 1st Team.

[Gregory Sager]

Knobloch was the guy who went thug-life on Lake in an attempt to either rile him up enough to retaliate and get thrown out of the game or to hurt him outright. As I said on CCIW Chat after that game two Saturdays ago, I understand and can appreciate, on one level, the gamesmanship involved in what he was doing to Lake. But on another level it was disappointing, because Illinois Wesleyan has never been known to play goon ball. I wasn't the only person who was disappointed with it, either, as a North Park faculty member went out of his way to tell me last week that he wrote a letter to the president of Illinois Wesleyan University expressing his disgust with Knobloch's actions.

Thug-life and goon ball? What in the world?

Knobloch didn't get whistled for a technical foul in that game.

That hardly means that he didn't goon it up, as you well know. Class A technicals are the ultimate judgment call, and you very rarely see them doled out within the context of a personal foul.

What did Knobloch do that the officials did not see?

What bothered me about how the officials responded was that they disregarded his obvious intent. It's one thing to commit a hard foul, and it's another thing altogether to knock a player to the floor and then stand over him for several seconds, glaring down at him with a macho, "Yeah, I've just put you on your ass. Whaddya gonna do about it?" look. The officials didn't respond to that at all, which disappointed me because it not only left open the potential for that provocation to turn into something worse, it also revealed the intent behind the foul itself. They didn't even come over right away to intervene (my initial worry was that this incident would bring somebody off of the NPU bench, as it took place right in front of that part of the sideline); they waited until Jason Hines had walked over and brushed past Knobloch as a bodyguard gesture before they scrambled over towards the NPU bench and separated the players. Given that context, the intent behind the hard foul by Knobloch on Lake under the west basket after Josh Washburn's steal at about the 5:00 mark of the second half should've been obvious.

[Smitty Oom]

The WIAC is brutal - loaded with so many good teams, every night is a war for every team in the league. You're right that standing 6-1 at this point is really impressive, SP looks legit from the perspective of an outsider who admittedly hasn't watched them live.


I want to talk about Ruggles for a minute, because I saw that Chris Martin made a bold statement in his post-game interview last Wednesday when he called Ruggles "one of the elite players in the country". I'm a CCIW fan and, more specifically, an avid Wheaton fan, and I was really disappointed when Wheaton wasn't able to keep Ruggles home (he played his high school ball at Wheaton-Warrenville South). People said then that he would be a D3 star, and I believed it. After two seasons spent dealing with all kinds of injuries, he's proving me right. 22.1 PPG, 4.6 RPG, 3.7 APG and no one's talking about the kid as an All-American candidate. Meanwhile, if you look over at the CCIW, everyone is already labeling Brady Rose an All-American (and he's a heck of a player so this isn't a shot at him) with virtually the same numbers (22.8 PPG, 2.8 RPG, 3.4 APG). I know the CCIW is the better league, but if you look at Massey (which I know is imperfect but it's still a good measuring stick) before writing it off as a difference in competition played, IWU's strength of schedule is 33rd in the country compared to Loras at 34th. Brady Rose probably is an All-American - but why isn't Ruggles in the same conversation?


There's also a legitimate argument to be made that Ruggles is the most efficient scorer in the country. He's shooting 51.2% from the field (125-224), 46.3% from three (68-147), and 92.7% from the FT line (102-110). I saw someone make the claim on twitter the other day that Ruggles is the only member of the 50-40-90 club in the country, so I dug into the numbers on the NCAA site and confirmed that this is true (using the NCAA minimums for attempts). This sparked my curiosity, so I started looking at historical numbers on the site and found that there has literally been one other player in D3 hoops in the past decade who has finished the season as a member of the 50-40-90 club.


If you want to chalk up the lack of buzz surrounding Ruggles to the fact that Loras isn't nationally ranked, fine, I won't argue with that. But I would genuinely be interested to hear from other CCIW/IIAC fans about what I'm missing here. In any case, I wish he was playing alongside Aston Francis for my Thunder!

Thanks for the insight Duckfan!! I had no clue he was that efficient, the 50-40-90 club is a incredibly impressive accomplishment. Who was the one other player to do it? Loras isn't in the national converstion but definitely one of the top teams in the West, and he will be recognized by the IIAC and All-Region teams for sure. I remembered reading an Around the Region article on him last year, he really has persevered injuries, great story, sounds like him his brother and his family really deserve this.

http://www.d3hoops.com/columns/around-the-region/west/2016-17/loras-ruggles-heart

Oh... and if Francis and Ruggles were on the same team:

Based on my research, the only other player to do it in the last 10 years was Colby Taylor from Central - believe it was two years ago, but may have even been last year. That season, he shot 53% from the field (196-370), 46.9% from three (69-147, coincidentally one more than Ruggles has hit in the same amount of shots this year), and 92.5% from the FT line (99-107). Others were close, others were in the club without reaching the NCAA minimum requirements for attempts, but only Ruggles and Taylor in the last decade according to the NCAA statistics.


I hear you on Loras not being on the national scene, and I appreciate that feedback. If Loras wins the IIAC and advances a few games into the national tournament, though, it seems to me that he should be in the conversation. Winning solves everything!

Also, that gif is probably the most accurate representation of what those two would look like on the court together for the same team!

Had this exchange over on the IIAC board and was wondering if you all had any thoughts?

JMHO, but I think all this ballyhoo about All-Americans and such is just a wee bit premature.
Here in CCIW land we’ve already been subjected to some “he’s playing at an All-American level” publicity campaigning.
One player having an excellent year is IWU’s Brady Rose. But All-American? Maybe he’ll be one and maybe he won’t. But, if he is, what are......................?

- The 20 players who have, as of right now, scored more points.
- The 24 players who have made more field goals.
- The 68 players who have made more 3 point shots.
- The 74 players who average more 3 pt field goals per game.
- The 112 players who have a higher 3 pt shooting percentage.
- The 200+ players who average more assists per game.
- The 200+ players with more rebounds per game.
- The 200+ players who have a better assist to Turnover Ratio.

Any All-Americans in that group?
There are many factors that make someone an All-American.
Whoever the subject might be, lets just hold off and see where they’re positioned when the season ends.   

I appreciate your input, but you seem to always blow a gasket whenever Raridon has a somewhat respectable game, and I haven’t said anything. I was just noting how Josh is the second most efficient shooter in the entire country (behind my own Ricky Samuelson), but his percentages are actually better than Mr. Samuelson’s. And with 6-ish games left in the season I hardly think it’s too early to speculate on who may be deserving of All-American status.

Before people potentially lose their minds, I’m not going to compare Ruggles to all-time great Kent Raymond. So don’t worry about that

This board is not meant for coach speak, I love speculating and we are just fans and media, we are encouraged to speculate! Plus like duckfan said, with the vast majority of the season over, its not early in the season anymore. AndOne, there is a lot of players in those parameters you outlined that are having huge stats on bad teams, while Josh Ruggles, and especially Brady Rose, are doing this on solid teams in above average conferences. I'm not saying that either of these players are for sure All-Americans, but both of them have a very solid case to make in my eyes. With Aston Francis basically being a lock. And Sorenson with his 19/9 statline also has a solid case, which can really be helped by a strong last handful of games and NCC getting some big wins.

[AndOne]

Duckfan41;

You copied something you posted on another board and said you were "wondering if you all (those of us here in CCIWland) had any thoughts"? Yet when I gave you my thoughts/opinion as you requested, you seemed a bit perturbed that I wasn't necessarily in step with your views on the subject. I would suggest that if you don't want someone's honest opinion, don't solicit it—as you did when you were "wondering" about our thoughts.
Also, did I say anything about Connor? I wasn't aware that he was part of the discussion. But, since you brought his name up, ya, I'm going to make special mention of it when he sets an all-time school record—just as you would/and do when Mr. Francis hits one of his patented bombs seemingly from just inside half court. 😏 🏀

[lmitzel]

Duckfan41;

You copied something you posted on another board and said you were "wondering if you all (those of us here in CCIWland) had any thoughts"? Yet when I gave you my thoughts/opinion as you requested, you seemed a bit perturbed that I wasn't necessarily in step with your views on the subject. I would suggest that if you don't want someone's honest opinion, don't solicit it—as you did when you were "wondering" about our thoughts.
Also, did I say anything about Connor? I wasn't aware that he was part of the discussion. But, since you brought his name up, ya, I'm going to make special mention of it when he sets an all-time school record—just as you would/and do when Mr. Francis hits one of his patented bombs seemingly from just inside half court. 😏 🏀

Spoiler alert: we'll see that special mention in the next 18 hours. Unless I beat him to it tonight. (And even if I did, he probably still will anyway. )

[WUPHF]

I think you guys should find out who each other works for and write a letter to the boss to complain.

OK, I'll see myself out now, sorry...

[duckfan41]

I think you guys should find out who each other works for and write a letter to the boss to complain.

OK, I'll see myself out now, sorry...

No need for that! I always appreciate your input on this page for what it's worth

[Titan Q]

What bothered me about how the officials responded was that they disregarded his obvious intent. It's one thing to commit a hard foul, and it's another thing altogether to knock a player to the floor and then stand over him for several seconds, glaring down at him with a macho, "Yeah, I've just put you on your ass. Whaddya gonna do about it?" look. The officials didn't respond to that at all, which disappointed me because it not only left open the potential for that provocation to turn into something worse, it also revealed the intent behind the foul itself. They didn't even come over right away to intervene (my initial worry was that this incident would bring somebody off of the NPU bench, as it took place right in front of that part of the sideline); they waited until Jason Hines had walked over and brushed past Knobloch as a bodyguard gesture before they scrambled over towards the NPU bench and separated the players. Given that context, the intent behind the hard foul by Knobloch on Lake under the west basket after Josh Washburn's steal at about the 5:00 mark of the second half should've been obvious.

Just watched that play. Starts at about 30:25...

https://boxcast.tv/view/mbb---il-wesleyan-at-north-park-895503

Didn't Lake kick Knobloch? Isn't that what Knobloch stared at him for? Instead of "Yeah, I've just put you on your ass. Whaddya gonna do about it?" wasn't it more "Why TF did you just kick me?"

You 100% sure you are describing this accurately/fairly?

[Gregory Sager]

Kicked him? Seriously? Watch it again, Bob. Lake was rolling over from his right side after hitting the floor. Since Knobloch's push had spun Lake downward and to his right, his momentum dictated that his left leg would sweep through the air as he rolled over onto his back. He couldn't bring that leg across at ground level, because his right leg was underneath it. There's no outward thrust of the leg to indicate a kick. His left foot doesn't appear to even glance Knobloch's head, since Knobloch neither flinched nor moved his head downward. Knobloch simply came up unimpeded. There's no kicking involved there at all.

Lake's right leg does come up a split second later, and that leg and Knobloch's left arm move into each other as Knobloch is halfway back up and Lake is beginning to recover on the floor. But Knobloch is already glaring at Lake at that point.

If Lake had kicked Knobloch, I can guarantee that Tom Slyder wouldn't have been immediately up out of his chair to call official Ronnie Jones over to protest Knobloch's actions.

[AppletonRocks]

I read this year's flu shot is only 10% effective this year. Only thing less effective than that is my alma mater's men's and women's programs...

Don't be negative or the Point fans will get on you 

Just testing out my abilities to use GIPHY

Very impressive D-Mac

[Smitty Oom]

What bothered me about how the officials responded was that they disregarded his obvious intent. It's one thing to commit a hard foul, and it's another thing altogether to knock a player to the floor and then stand over him for several seconds, glaring down at him with a macho, "Yeah, I've just put you on your ass. Whaddya gonna do about it?" look. The officials didn't respond to that at all, which disappointed me because it not only left open the potential for that provocation to turn into something worse, it also revealed the intent behind the foul itself. They didn't even come over right away to intervene (my initial worry was that this incident would bring somebody off of the NPU bench, as it took place right in front of that part of the sideline); they waited until Jason Hines had walked over and brushed past Knobloch as a bodyguard gesture before they scrambled over towards the NPU bench and separated the players. Given that context, the intent behind the hard foul by Knobloch on Lake under the west basket after Josh Washburn's steal at about the 5:00 mark of the second half should've been obvious.

Just watched that play. Starts at about 30:25...

https://boxcast.tv/view/mbb---il-wesleyan-at-north-park-895503

Didn't Lake kick Knobloch? Isn't that what Knobloch stared at him for? Instead of "Yeah, I've just put you on your ass. Whaddya gonna do about it?" wasn't it more "Why TF did you just kick me?"

You 100% sure you are describing this accurately/fairly?

I can't believe that was the play we have had pedantic conversation about.

Two kids were a little heated during a game, bumped each other and gave each other the look. Knoblach didn't even stand over him. He walked around him and got away immediately, while giving him the look. So what, they are competitors. This isn't "Goon Ball" in my eyes. If it happened more frequently maybe I would be worried. Reading the quotes it sounds like their is no bad blood between the two players, they moved on...