MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[WUPHF]

I apologize for my laziness, but can anyone talk to me about Carthage or Elmhurst?

Did anyone think they had a shot at a 6-0 record to start the season or are these two of the best basketball stories of the year?

By the way, with all the disclaimers included, Elmhurst is currently rated No. 1 by Ken Massey.

[blue_jays]

Quotes from last nights game at the Shirk:

"Everybody knew about Aston Francis. We're getting a little tired of hearing we can't win without him," said Thunder coach Mike Schauer. "I don't think he scored tonight. We think we're pretty good."

"This team is playing with a real high energy," said Schauer. "We think we're better than people think we are. This was not a fluky effort to me. We're a difficult team to play."

"Quite honestly, we were just outtoughed. They took us out of our offense, and we didn't fight to stay in it," Rose said. "We didn't provide much resistance on the defensive end. We kind of went rogue. We got frustrated and defended individually instead of collectively."

Norm Eash didn't think Wheaton was 16 points better than IWU last night...

LOLz

[blue_jays]

I apologize for my laziness, but can anyone talk to me about Carthage or Elmhurst?

Did anyone think they had a shot at a 6-0 record to start the season or are these two of the best basketball stories of the year?

By the way, with all the disclaimers included, Elmhurst is currently rated No. 1 by Ken Massey.

The Carthage start I've been legitimately surprised by, didn't see it coming considering how up and down they've been in recent years. Elmhurst is no surprise IMO, they've been building to this level the past few years and Rhode is one of the best guards in the region. The big thing for them now is figuring out how to win and perform in the clutch when the big CCIW games roll around.

[Gregory Sager]

I apologize for my laziness, but can anyone talk to me about Carthage or Elmhurst?

Did anyone think they had a shot at a 6-0 record to start the season or are these two of the best basketball stories of the year?

By the way, with all the disclaimers included, Elmhurst is currently rated No. 1 by Ken Massey.

They are two of the best basketball stories of the year, and I'd say that Wheaton is a third. Carthage was the classic example last season of a team whose parts were greater than the sum; the Red Men badly underachieved, given the talent that they had, as they seemed to lack a glue and an identity (in retrospect, Brad Kruse might've been the biggest graduation loss in the CCIW coming into the 2018-19 season). This year the Red Men appear to have found that missing chemistry and purpose. Jordon Kedrowski and Sean Johnson in particular really seem to have blossomed this season, and Fillip Bulatovic is on the short list of Freshman of the Year candidates. The interesting thing is that they've jumped out to that 6-0 record in spite of the fact that Kienen Baltimore has had a slow start to the season, which may mean that Carthage could get even better.

Elmhurst is a great story because the Bluejays just weren't on anybody's radar at all. The coaches slotted the 'jays fifth in the CCIW preseason poll, and, unlike Wheaton, nobody took a flier on EC in the d3hoops.com preseason poll. Everybody knows about Jake Rhode, but nobody figured that Lavon Thomas would show the work rate necessary to get into the kind of condition that he's in that's allowing him to do the things that he's doing, and John Baines just seems to have found a lot of pieces that fit really well together.

[Gregory Sager]

All those idiot, lazy Top 25 voters who voted Wheaton are having a pretty good laugh now. They might want to know how the crow tastes, you know who you are.

Come on, Tom. You mean to tell me that some Top 25 voter in Virginia or Massachusetts or Oregon knew that Tyson Cruickshank and Nyameye Adom were going to step out of the shadow of Mr. Shoot Until My Arms Fall Off himself, Aston Francis, and become quite possibly the best backcourt in the Central Region while the voter who is a CCIW lifer, Bob Quillman, didn't? You're gonna insist that some pollster tied to some league 800 miles away from Illinois was dead certain that Cade Alioth, who wasn't even a rotation player last season (7.1 mpg while playing in only 19 of Wheaton's 31 games) while averaging 1.1 ppg and 1.6 rpg, was going to come out of the gate this year as a 10.6 ppg and 8.3 rpg monster?

Bob and Pat and I called those five people who put Wheaton on their preseason ballots "lazy voters" (nobody ever called them "idiots") because that's exactly what they were: lazy voters. There is no way in the world that they could have foreseen the emergence of outright superstars for Wheaton who last season were role players, or something even less than that. Those of us who took the time to look at what Wheaton had coming back, and saw that with the loss of Francis, Luke Peters, Kobe Eichelberger, Trevor Gunter, and Spencer Peterson -- and the protracted absence of Luke Anthony, who might end up missing 40% of the 2019-20 regular season due to football -- Wheaton had lost 77% of its scoring from last season, 64% of its rebounding, 71% of its assists, and the best perimeter defender in the CCIW. It's patently obvious that the voters who put Wheaton on their ballots didn't take the time to examine that data, because it's absolutely impossible that they could've predicted the sudden emergence of so many players on the Wheaton roster on so steep a curve.

Mike Schauer, his staff, and Wheaton's players, all of whom no doubt believed that they were capable of stepping into the shoes of those departed players and producing at such a high-octane level, are entitled to an I-told-you-so at our expense. I don't think that anybody else is -- especially those five voters, who in this instance can call themselves the Blind Squirrel Club.

Not exactly sure what this is referring to.  But if this is about Wheaton's preseason poll ORV 45 votes, count me as one that thought "that's just plain dumb".  Zero case for any votes. Even the 11 votes in the week 1 poll was suspect when they were 3-1.

Yep, that's what it's about. Over on the Top 25 board, which is where the whole "lazy voter" discussion took place, Pat further identified those 45 preseason poll points (not votes) as coming from five voters, who were and remain anonymous.

[GoPerry]

All those idiot, lazy Top 25 voters who voted Wheaton are having a pretty good laugh now. They might want to know how the crow tastes, you know who you are.

Come on, Tom. You mean to tell me that some Top 25 voter in Virginia or Massachusetts or Oregon knew that Tyson Cruickshank and Nyameye Adom were going to step out of the shadow of Mr. Shoot Until My Arms Fall Off himself, Aston Francis, and become quite possibly the best backcourt in the Central Region while the voter who is a CCIW lifer, Bob Quillman, didn't? You're gonna insist that some pollster tied to some league 800 miles away from Illinois was dead certain that Cade Alioth, who wasn't even a rotation player last season (7.1 mpg while playing in only 19 of Wheaton's 31 games) while averaging 1.1 ppg and 1.6 rpg, was going to come out of the gate this year as a 10.6 ppg and 8.3 rpg monster?

Bob and Pat and I called those five people who put Wheaton on their preseason ballots "lazy voters" (nobody ever called them "idiots") because that's exactly what they were: lazy voters. There is no way in the world that they could have foreseen the emergence of outright superstars for Wheaton who last season were role players, or something even less than that. Those of us who took the time to look at what Wheaton had coming back, and saw that with the loss of Francis, Luke Peters, Kobe Eichelberger, Trevor Gunter, and Spencer Peterson -- and the protracted absence of Luke Anthony, who might end up missing 40% of the 2019-20 regular season due to football -- Wheaton had lost 77% of its scoring from last season, 64% of its rebounding, 71% of its assists, and the best perimeter defender in the CCIW. It's patently obvious that the voters who put Wheaton on their ballots didn't take the time to examine that data, because it's absolutely impossible that they could've predicted the sudden emergence of so many players on the Wheaton roster on so steep a curve.

Mike Schauer, his staff, and Wheaton's players, all of whom no doubt believed that they were capable of stepping into the shoes of those departed players and producing at such a high-octane level, are entitled to an I-told-you-so at our expense. I don't think that anybody else is -- especially those five voters, who in this instance can call themselves the Blind Squirrel Club.

Not exactly sure what this is referring to.  But if this is about Wheaton's preseason poll ORV 45 votes, count me as one that thought "that's just plain dumb".  Zero case for any votes. Even the 11 votes in the week 1 poll was suspect when they were 3-1.

[voxelmhurst]

I apologize for my laziness, but can anyone talk to me about Carthage or Elmhurst?

Did anyone think they had a shot at a 6-0 record to start the season or are these two of the best basketball stories of the year?

By the way, with all the disclaimers included, Elmhurst is currently rated No. 1 by Ken Massey.

I didn't expect this from Elmhurst. I tend to be a realist, hedging my expectations to be pleasantly surprised and not disappointed. At the end of last year, I bemoaned that Elmhurst wouldn't have at least 1 more year of Jeremy Ireland playing with Rhode and Dotlich. I thought the loss of Ireland would be a tough hurdle to climb out of this year. I also questioned whether or not Baines was culpable for their lack of depth since the 2015/16 season. These comments only made in frustration due to how Elmhurst lost so many games last year, losing a late lead on the road in virtually every big CCIW game. It's clear the Baines was well aware of the team's limitations these last few years, and has recruited and prepared his players accordingly. The players in turn have gone out and executed flawlessly thus far.

[bbfan44]

Wheaton received a boost last January when Luke Anthony joined the team.  Fans likely are hoping for deja vu.

[Titan Q]

All those idiot, lazy Top 25 voters who voted Wheaton are having a pretty good laugh now. They might want to know how the crow tastes, you know who you are.

Do you think there was a legitimate case for a pollster to put Wheaton in his/her 2019-20 preseason Top 25 ballot, Greek? 

G - Aston Francis, 34.2 ppg, 7.9 rpg, 3.1 apg D3 POY
G - Luke Anthony, 8.7 ppg, 2.9 rpg (QB of football team/not available until Mid-Nov at the earliest)
G - Luke Peters, 8.0 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 4.2 apg
F - Anajuwon Spencer, 7.2 ppg, 5.4 rpg
G - Nyameye Adom, 6.6 ppg, 2.8 rpg
F - Kobe Eichelberger, 6.0 ppg, 3.3 rpg
F - Spencer Peterson, 5.5 ppg, 4.1 rpg (ACL 10/5 in football game)
F - Gavin Hawkins, 3.2 ppg
F - Trevor Gunter, 2.8 ppg, 2.8 rpg
G - Tyson Cruickshank, 2.6 ppg
F - Cade Alioth, 1.1 ppg, 1.6 rpg

Or in the Week 1 ballot after they lost to Lake Forest at home?

And do you think beating unranked IWU (heck not only unranked, but playing without a 17 ppg, 4 apg starting PG) proves Wheaton is a Top 25 team?  (That is where the crow eating comes in for calling out out the lazy voters - cuz now Wheaton is a for sure Top 25 team?)

I am not exactly following your point.

[markerickson]

Two amazing stats from the North Park game that I did not attend b/c the better half scheduled a social activity downtown.  1.  143 people attended North Park's home game against Carroll.  143.  2.  North Park shot three free throws the entire game.  3. 

[Mr. Ypsi]

All those idiot, lazy Top 25 voters who voted Wheaton are having a pretty good laugh now. They might want to know how the crow tastes, you know who you are.

Come on, Tom. You mean to tell me that some Top 25 voter in Virginia or Massachusetts or Oregon knew that Tyson Cruickshank and Nyameye Adom were going to step out of the shadow of Mr. Shoot Until My Arms Fall Off himself, Aston Francis, and become quite possibly the best backcourt in the Central Region while the voter who is a CCIW lifer, Bob Quillman, didn't? You're gonna insist that some pollster tied to some league 800 miles away from Illinois was dead certain that Cade Alioth, who wasn't even a rotation player last season (7.1 mpg while playing in only 19 of Wheaton's 31 games) while averaging 1.1 ppg and 1.6 rpg, was going to come out of the gate this year as a 10.6 ppg and 8.3 rpg monster?

Bob and Pat and I called those five people who put Wheaton on their preseason ballots "lazy voters" (nobody ever called them "idiots") because that's exactly what they were: lazy voters. There is no way in the world that they could have foreseen the emergence of outright superstars for Wheaton who last season were role players, or something even less than that. Those of us who took the time to look at what Wheaton had coming back, and saw that with the loss of Francis, Luke Peters, Kobe Eichelberger, Trevor Gunter, and Spencer Peterson -- and the protracted absence of Luke Anthony, who might end up missing 40% of the 2019-20 regular season due to football -- Wheaton had lost 77% of its scoring from last season, 64% of its rebounding, 71% of its assists, and the best perimeter defender in the CCIW. It's patently obvious that the voters who put Wheaton on their ballots didn't take the time to examine that data, because it's absolutely impossible that they could've predicted the sudden emergence of so many players on the Wheaton roster on so steep a curve.

Mike Schauer, his staff, and Wheaton's players, all of whom no doubt believed that they were capable of stepping into the shoes of those departed players and producing at such a high-octane level, are entitled to an I-told-you-so at our expense. I don't think that anybody else is -- especially those five voters, who in this instance can call themselves the Blind Squirrel Club.

I just went back and checked the posts on the Top 25 board, and confess that in the heat of the moment I did call them idiots.  Both you and Bob immediately called me out on that, but I didn't read far enough to see if I ever apologized - in case I didn't I do now.  IF Wheaton can keep on winning, and the formerly unknown players can keep producing so well, I concur on "Blind Squirrel Club".

Per TQ's post, just beating unranked IWU certainly wouldn't place Wheaton in the top 25.  Totally dominating the team picked by conference coaches to finish 3rd just might.  They are certainly back on the radar, but I'd withhold judgment until sometime in January.

[Gregory Sager]

I just went back and checked the posts on the Top 25 board, and confess that in the heat of the moment I did call them idiots.  Both you and Bob immediately called me out on that, but I didn't read far enough to see if I ever apologized - in case I didn't I do now.

I had forgotten that. So now I have to apologize on top of your apology.

On the bright side, Chuck, this may be the first case of you looking up something for my benefit, rather than the other way around.

[Titan Q]

The controversial Lazy Voter Thread...

Quick reaction - awesome preseason poll!

The only thing I noticed that seems weird to me is the Wheaton votes.

I see that Wheaton got 45 points in the preseason poll.

Perhaps Wheaton can oblige Pat by sending him copies of Aston Francis's diploma that he can pass along to those pollsters.

Bob can vouch for the fact that I was fairly outspoken with the voters about not voting based on last year's players if they are no longer in uniform.

Those votes came from just five people.

Yeah, but that's five pollsters who put Wheaton at an average of #17 on their ballots.

That's really negligent prep on their part, if you ask me.

I don't know who they are obviously, but I'm calling those 5 voters out for lazy voting.

Sí.

45 poll points for the team picked 6th in the CCIW.

https://cciw.org/news/2019/10/30/north-central-picked-to-win-2019-20-cciw-mens-basketball-title.aspx

1. North Central
2. Augustana
3. IWU
4. Carthage
5. Elmhurst
6. Wheaton
7. Carroll
7. Millikin
9. North Park

See, I have been telling you guys for 20 years it is a strong league!

Correct.  But why ZERO votes for those voted 3rd, 4th, and 5th?  Would a simpler explanation be that some of your fellow voters are idiots who don't realize that Aston Francis ain't walking thru that door?

"Idiots" is a little harsh. I suggested that they were guilty of skimping on their ballot preparation, and Bob used the word "lazy" to describe them. Not to speak for Bob, but I suspect that he'd agree with me that "idiots" is a bit over the top in describing the five Wheaton-voting pollsters.

"Idiots" is definitely way, way over the top. 

I've chosen to be snarky on this Wheaton thing simply because most voters spent hours on the preseason ballot...while a small number didn't do a great job reviewing/using the info Pat provided to them.  By poll-shaming the Wheaton voters I'm hoping they'll get locked in the rest of the way.

But they're certainly not idiots.  These are media types, or SIDS, or coaches who were handpicked by D3hoops.com because of how much they know about D3 MBB, and how much they care.  This basketball preseason time of year (October) is crazy for all three of these groups for different reasons.  I'm guessing a few people got caught not setting aside enough time for their ballot, wanted to vote for a 3rd CCIW team, and plucked Wheaton off the final 2018-19 poll without looking at what they lost/return. 

When Wheaton wins the national championship this year I expect to hear from these 5 voters.

Those five voters are the only ones who know about the secret lab where they've been making clones. The starting lineup this season will include AsTWOn Francis, Aston FOURncis, Aston FranSIX, AsTEN Francis, and Anajuwon Spencer.

[Titan Q]

I would like to say, and I think I speak for Greg, that anyone who wants to call out Chuck for saying something dumb is cool with me.

I am really only here to defend myself.

[Titan Q]

Quotes from last nights game at the Shirk:

"Everybody knew about Aston Francis. We're getting a little tired of hearing we can't win without him," said Thunder coach Mike Schauer. "I don't think he scored tonight. We think we're pretty good."

Oh, and don't ever let a CCIW coach tell you they don't read the D3boards.