MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[patcummings]

Back from Salem. VWC is a very impressive team and has a good chance to make the Final 4 next year. Sometimes you just have to give an opponent credit. It was a great Final 4, but the attendance was disappointing. Don't know when the contract is up for bid, but the brand new Bloom'ton Colisuem is looking for events and Bloom'ton/Normal is a D3 hotbed and would support the Final 4 better than Salem.

I don't understand the reference to the lack of attendance.  There were 2665 on Friday night and 3435 on Saturday.  Those numbers seemed up to me from previous years, but I do not have those handy. 

This argument is had every year...

Bottom line - it takes a massive effort to organize and run the Final Four.  If you had an inside look at what it takes to pull everything off, you would realize it is not easy to just up and bid for the games and win, knowing what it takes to score them.

Salem continues to do a spectacular job.  The area supports the games.  Hundreds of volunteers and municipal workers make sure everything goes off well, and this year was no different.

Even with an ODAC team, and a major national player like IWU...the games garnered about 6,000 for the whole weekend.  Thousands and thousands more watched the semifinals online. 

A 7,500 seat arena might make the Final Four looks much smaller than the Salem Civic Center which seems to fit the games, and their attendance, much more.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Back from Salem. VWC is a very impressive team and has a good chance to make the Final 4 next year. Sometimes you just have to give an opponent credit. It was a great Final 4, but the attendance was disappointing. Don't know when the contract is up for bid, but the brand new Bloom'ton Colisuem is looking for events and Bloom'ton/Normal is a D3 hotbed and would support the Final 4 better than Salem.

I don't understand the reference to the lack of attendance.  There were 2665 on Friday night and 3435 on Saturday.  Those numbers seemed up to me from previous years, but I do not have those handy. 

This argument is had every year...

Bottom line - it takes a massive effort to organize and run the Final Four.  If you had an inside look at what it takes to pull everything off, you would realize it is not easy to just up and bid for the games and win, knowing what it takes to score them.

Salem continues to do a spectacular job.  The area supports the games.  Hundreds of volunteers and municipal workers make sure everything goes off well, and this year was no different.

Even with an ODAC team, and a major national player like IWU...the games garnered about 6,000 for the whole weekend.  Thousands and thousands more watched the semifinals online. 

A 7,500 seat arena might make the Final Four looks much smaller than the Salem Civic Center which seems to fit the games, and their attendance, much more.

Since I haven't lived in Bloomington for 36 years, it is probably very foolhardy for me to enter this discussion, but IF IWU were involved, I suspect the attendance would be far larger than the Salem stats BEFORE other fans are even included.  IF another CCIW team is involved, I suspect the stats would about equal Salem BEFORE other fans are even included.  If there was no direct tie-in, my hunch would be that there would still be 1500-2000 locals.  This IS an area that loves its d3 hoops!

This is NOT a pitch for B'ton specifically, but the HEART of d3 hoops is clearly Wisc-Mich/Ill-Ohio - somewhere there just seems a logical location.

[David Collinge]

I have no interest in going to central Illinois in mid-March if it can be avoided.  Salem is a little on the chilly side, but a very beautiful area that looks great at that time of the year.  I have no complaints whatsoever about having the tournament in Salem or about the job the ODAC and Civic Center do putting on the tournament.  And I drove about 6,000 (so far) miles in total to see the games.

By the way, kudos to the IWU pep band.  They are very, very good. 

[Gregory Sager]

Since I haven't lived in Bloomington for 36 years, it is probably very foolhardy for me to enter this discussion, but IF IWU were involved, I suspect the attendance would be far larger than the Salem stats BEFORE other fans are even included.  IF another CCIW team is involved, I suspect the stats would about equal Salem BEFORE other fans are even included.  If there was no direct tie-in, my hunch would be that there would still be 1500-2000 locals.  This IS an area that loves its d3 hoops!

This is NOT a pitch for B'ton specifically, but the HEART of d3 hoops is clearly Wisc-Mich/Ill-Ohio - somewhere there just seems a logical location.

Don't count on Bloormal hosting the Final Four, Lanny and Chuck. Pat Cummings is right that Bloomington's U.S. Cellular Coliseum is twice as large as what D3 needs in a Final Four venue. And David is right that the community isn't exactly a draw in and of itself. Finally, central Illinois is too far to the west to be a good location for the majority of D3 schools, half of whom are east of the Ohio/Pennsylvania border. I've never really understood why Augustana hosted the Final Four in the late seventies and early eighties; Augie was even further on the western periphery of D3 then than it is now.

If you're looking for a central location that's convenient for the bulk of D3 campuses, look to cities such as Buffalo (which actually hosted the Final Four for awhile), Rochester, Cleveland, or Pittsburgh.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Greg,

You avoided my point that in B'ton the attendance would be considerably larger than in Salem, so the arena would not necessarily be too large.  Nonetheless, this is NOT a pitch for B'ton, per se.  [Though I haven't heard a LEGITIMATE argument against it yet.]

Geographically, Ohio would seem to be kind of the center of d3 [though, come summer break, I'll try to remember to plot out the points for teams actually making the Final Four over the past dozen years] - but I doubt that Cleveland, Columbus, or Cincinnati are the answer.  We want a venue where d3 is BIG, where LOCALS will attend even if no local team is involved.  That's where Bloomington came in, but there must be such locations in Ohio, Indiana, western Pennsylvania...

In Bloomington, I'm pretty certain there would be a base of 1,000 (hopefully, my earlier statements of 1,500-2,000) before you even consider team fans.  What other locale can offer that?

[Gregory Sager]

You avoided my point that in B'ton the attendance would be considerably larger than in Salem, so the arena would not necessarily be too large.  Nonetheless, this is NOT a pitch for B'ton, per se.  [Though I haven't heard a LEGITIMATE argument against it yet.]

Chuck, it's not close to the bulk of D3 schools. That's not an airtight argument against Bloomington, but it's a perfectly legitimate one.

Geographically, Ohio would seem to be kind of the center of d3 [though, come summer break, I'll try to remember to plot out the points for teams actually making the Final Four over the past dozen years] - but I doubt that Cleveland, Columbus, or Cincinnati are the answer. We want a venue where d3 is BIG, where LOCALS will attend even if no local team is involved. That's where Bloomington came in, but there must be such locations in Ohio, Indiana, western Pennsylvania...

Locals are not the primary constituency of D3. The schools that are members of D3 are the primary constituency. Salem is an out-of-the-way locale, but it's out of the way for everybody (well, except for the ODAC, but that's just one conference; the USA-South is not a factor on the national level).

Don't bother plotting out the locations of past Final Four participants. The issue isn't where the Final Four is located relative to past participants; it's where it's located relative to D3 members as a whole. You can't necessarily predict future participants based upon past ones. Every March in this decade has seen at least one new school in the D3 Final Four that's never been there before, and more than half of them (2000, 2002, 2003, and 2004) have seen two Final Four newbies.

In Bloomington, I'm pretty certain there would be a base of 1,000 (hopefully, my earlier statements of 1,500-2,000) before you even consider team fans. What other locale can offer that?

Your entire argument is predicated upon the idea that a thousand of the good burghers of Bloomington-Normal would pay to see a Final Four that consisted of, say, Gustavus Adolphus, Baldwin-Wallace, Williams, and Catholic. You can't prove that. I'm not convinced that 1,000 residents of McLean County would be interested in seeing a Final Four that doesn't include Illinois Wesleyan, although if it was held somewhere within northern Illinois it's possible that you could get a lot of casual CCIW and WIAC fans in the event that one of the members of those conferences was in the Final Four. And in that case you might as well hold it at Loyola's 5,200-seat Gentile Center, since Chicago is much more of an attraction to out-of-towners than is Bloomington, and it's easier to get to as well. But there are other D3 hotbeds where you'd be just as likely to draw casual crowds familiar with top-flight D3 ball -- Holland and Grand Rapids in Michigan, Wooster in Ohio, for example. And Wooster's a lot more centrally located. Timken Gym (cap. 3,400), where the Fighting Scots play, probably isn't big enough to host a D3 Final Four, but the nearby Canton Civic Center and Rhodes Arena at the University of Akron each seat 5,500.

Rochester's an even better choice -- there are five D3 schools within the metro Rochester area, and they all play every January in the city's Chase Bank Tournament. D3 schools have a pretty high profile in the Kodak City. The problem with Rochester, though, is that there aren't any intermediate-sized arenas in town. All of the local schools have gyms that seat about 2,000, and the next step up is Blue Cross Arena (where Rochester's minor-league hockey, lacrosse, and basketball teams play), and that seats 11,500.

Bob, Pat, April, David, or someone who has firsthand experience with Salem, tell us: Does the Final Four draw a lot of local paying customers who have no inherent rooting interest? This past weekend probably wouldn't be a good example, since an ODAC team was involved, but last year might've been a good barometer as to the D3 Final Four having any kind of an inherent local draw, since the nearest school (York PA) represented in the 2005 Final Four is 315 miles from Salem/Roanoke.

[Titan Q]

Bob, Pat, April, David, or someone who has firsthand experience with Salem, tell us: Does the Final Four draw a lot of local paying customers who have no inherent rooting interest?

Some, but not enough to make a big dent in the overall attendance numbers.  I really do not think there'd be a huge "casual" fanbase no matter where the Final Four is hosted.  If the event was played in Bloomington, Illinois and IWU was not in it, you'd only have about 300-400 regular Titan fans go and maybe 100 D3 fans from the Chicago area, but that's about it I think.  And yes, Bloomington's new downtown arena is way too big for the D3 Final Four - it'd look way to empty.  The Salem Civic Center is just the right size.

This is Division III, folks - there just are not many "casual fans."  Let's not kid ourselves.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Just a couple of things that didn't get mentioned over the past few weeks, I thought I would put here.

VWU's arena seats only 1100, but they got to host without complaint from anyone; in fact I heard good things about the experience from opponent's teams (the LU ticket scandal aside; you guys could have been a little nicer to them).

Also, VWU loses no one of consequence from this team heading into next year.  Is the CCIW afraid of how good VWU could be, is it denial?  Why haven't I seen this mentioned in everyone's recap of the weekend?


Finally, I said it before, but its probably ten pages back by now.  Just an awesome run for a great group of IWU seniors.  I was really pulling for them and the "feel good story" over the weekend.  Sadly it was not to be.

[Greek Tragedy]

I'm not convinced that 1,000 residents of McLean County would be interested in seeing a Final Four that doesn't include Illinois Wesleyan, although if it was held somewhere within northern Illinois it's possible that you could get a lot of casual CCIW and WIAC fans in the event that one of the members of those conferences was in the Final Four.

Bob, Pat, April, David, or someone who has firsthand experience with Salem, tell us: Does the Final Four draw a lot of local paying customers who have no inherent rooting interest?

Some, but not enough to make a big dent in the overall attendance numbers.  I really do not think there'd be a huge "casual" fanbase no matter where the Final Four is hosted.  If the event was played in Bloomington, Illinois and IWU was not in it, you'd only have about 300-400 regular Titan fans go and maybe 100 D3 fans from the Chicago area, but that's about it I think.  And yes, Bloomington's new downtown arena is way too big for the D3 Final Four - it'd look way to empty.  The Salem Civic Center is just the right size.

This is Division III, folks - there just are not many "casual fans."  Let's not kid ourselves.

As much as I love D3 hoops and all, I think some of you are over-estimating the number of "casual fans" in certain areas and conferences.  I can only speak for the WIAC here...

Whitewater didn't even sell out their regional final vs. Ill. Wes.  They barely sold out their regional semi-final against DePauw.  Believe me, there were more fans at the 1st game than at the 2nd game.  I don't really know how far it is from Bloomington to Whitewater, but Ill. Wes. had about 350 there (not sure, maybe Titan Q can confirm a number).   So, that's with THEIR team in it.  Yeah, it's not in Bloomington, but you're predicting the same amount of casual fans with the Titans NOT in the tourney.

There aren't many casual WIAC fans, IMO.  Stout and Point have the best attendence, but from there, it's down hill.  Oshkosh should be doing a lot better than they do, but the students don't care, IMO.  Point averaged just under 1400, Stout about 1150.  Whitewater 950ish and Platteville just over 900.  Then Oshkosh 720s and then Eau Claire and La Crosse in the 600s.

Say for example, Kolf, which holds about 5000 or so.  If the Finals were there, you'd might get 100+ casual/WIAC fans there.

At the Lawrence sectional, you had TWO CCIW teams there, IWU and Augustana.  Did you see any Augustana fans stay for the second night to watch their fellow conference member play.  No.

[markerickson]

If IWU had not been the preseason #1 selection, I'm not convinved they would have made the tourney.   "You" saved the CCIW from an ignominious tournament ala the Big Ten.  Kudos for making the Final Four!

[Knightstalker]

The final four was held in Springfield Ohio for several years ending in 92, then for three years it was in Buffalo and since 96 has been in Salem.  I went to the final four in Ohio when NJCU then JCSC made it and they did a nice job there and there was plenty of seating.

[Pat Coleman]

VWU's arena seats only 1100, but they got to host without complaint from anyone; in fact I heard good things about the experience from opponent's teams (the LU ticket scandal aside; you guys could have been a little nicer to them).

Also, VWU loses no one of consequence from this team heading into next year.  Is the CCIW afraid of how good VWU could be, is it denial?  Why haven't I seen this mentioned in everyone's recap of the weekend?

I would say Marques Fitch is someone of consequence, but then again, they made basically this entire tourney run without their starting point guard, out with a deep thigh bruise.

For locals in Salem, I think it depends on the year. I think that 400-500 is probably the most you can expect in any given year. I expect the D-I tournament games in Greensboro probably sucked away some of those fans.

If IWU had not been the preseason #1 selection, I'm not convinved they would have made the tourney.

This is highly unlikely. The NCAA has never shown any heed to our poll.

[David Collinge]

The only way I can think of to estimate the size of the local, unaffiliated crowd is to check the license plates in the parking lot.  Unfortunately, with a Virginia team in the draw this year, that's not a reliable indicator; and I wasn't thinking in those terms last year. 

The people who were sitting immediately behind me were unaffiliated and, presumably, local fans.  They were pulling for Virginia Wesleyan, but when one of them asked me why so many schools had the word "Wesleyan" in their names and wanted to know what it meant, I took it to mean that he was not a Marlin partisan. 

One way to gauge the level of general interest in the community is to see how many show up for the first game of any holiday tournaments that a school might hold.  At Wooster, where there are two annual holiday tournaments, the first game is usually sparsely attended; therefore I'd guess that a Final Four at Wooster that did not involve Wooster or another semi-local team (such as Mt. Union) would not draw very many locals.  Add to that the fact that Wooster is hard to get to, has relatively few hotel rooms, and is a fairly small town, would eliminate it, even if the too-small arena didn't.  Transferring it to Canton, where the D3 presence is limited to Mt. Union, would only further shrink the crowd.  (Canton's Fawcett Stadium, located next to the Pro Football Hall of Fame, might be a good choice for the Stagg Bowl, however, given who usually qualifies to play in it.)

If even a relatively centrally-located D3 hotbed like Wooster turns out to be unsuitable and far inferior to Salem, I don't think that bodes well for other sites.

I'm not concerned about attracting the hypothetical (and largely imaginary) casual fan, anyway.  Dedicated (dare I say "diehard") fans will make the trip wherever the fete is, as will the best fans of the teams involved.  Salem is at least driveable from most D3 schools, offers a nice climate, plenty of other attractions, lots of hotels and restaurants, and a suitable arena with a staff experienced in and happy to put on a good show.  I'm well-satisfied.

[iwumichigander]

Back from Salem and catching up on the board.  Congratulations to IWU for a great run - we are proud of this team.

Congratulations also to Virginia Wesleyan College on the National Championship win.  And, to all four teams, a really great tournament.

[emeritusprof]

For what it's worth, the Twin Cities StarTribune gave almost no coverage to the NCAA III tourney.  Mention was made early of the teams within its circulation that made the field.  However, the Final Four got merely line scores.

One could argue that the Strib serves a very large D III constituency--western Wis, all of Minn, part of IA, and the Dakotas.  There's a bunch of D III schools in that territory.  Yet, whether hoops or football, it is often necessary to call the sports desk to get a score.  Even then they are reluctant to give it over the phone until it is pointed out the caller is a subscriber.