MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[oldfish]

Just my two cents on how and why Bloomington/Normal could be the perfect choice to hold the Div. III Fianl Four.  Although, as a VWC alum, I think it should be held in Salem every year!

I believe that the largest employer in the area is State Farm with several thousand employees (10,000 give or take I believe).  State Farm has a history of supporting lesser publicized sports.  IF...and yes, this is a BIG if...State Farm would sponsor/support Div. III basketball and commit $ to advertising, maybe we could get ESPN to again broadcast the Div. III final four.  I believe that with the games on television and with State Farms support, it would be pretty easy to draw 2500 locals with or without IWU.  If you throw in the and IL or WI team, I think you are looking at 3000-3500 fans before you get to the other three teams.

I might be way off base, but I know that the Bloomington/Normal area loves its basketball.

[Ralph Turner]

The people who were sitting immediately behind me were unaffiliated and, presumably, local fans.  They were pulling for Virginia Wesleyan, but when one of them asked me why so many schools had the word "Wesleyan" in their names and wanted to know what it meant, I took it to mean that he was not a Marlin partisan,

nor are they Methodist,  nor are they someone who understands the growth and development of higher education in the 19th and early 20th century.

I'm not concerned about attracting the hypothetical (and largely imaginary) casual fan, anyway.  Dedicated (dare I say "diehard") fans will make the trip wherever the fete is, as will the best fans of the teams involved.  Salem is at least driveable from most D3 schools, offers a nice climate, plenty of other attractions, lots of hotels and restaurants, and a suitable arena with a staff experienced in and happy to put on a good show.  I'm well-satisfied.

And, Salem wants us!  This is a big deal.  Salem has the chance to build some local tradition into the D3 National Championship tradition.  I did not hear of any tailgating, a la, Stone Station, for the Hoopsters.

As for the women, I can see Hope hosting the women in the next decade in their new facility...Neutral Floor?  Only if no MIAA teams make it.

[Gregory Sager]

Some, but not enough to make a big dent in the overall attendance numbers.  I really do not think there'd be a huge "casual" fanbase no matter where the Final Four is hosted.  If the event was played in Bloomington, Illinois and IWU was not in it, you'd only have about 300-400 regular Titan fans go and maybe 100 D3 fans from the Chicago area, but that's about it I think.  And yes, Bloomington's new downtown arena is way too big for the D3 Final Four - it'd look way to empty.  The Salem Civic Center is just the right size.

This is Division III, folks - there just are not many "casual fans."  Let's not kid ourselves.

Thanks, Bob. This is what I suspected.

As much as I love D3 hoops and all, I think some of you are over-estimating the number of "casual fans" in certain areas and conferences.  I can only speak for the WIAC here...

I'm really not overestimating anything. Remember, I'm the one who thinks that the idea of a casual fan base, potential or actual, for a D3 Final Four is a stretch. When I said that you could get a lot of casual CCIW or WIAC fans if you held the event in northern Illinois and a team from one of those two conferences was in it, I was by no means implying that you could get the sort of 1,500-2,000 base of locals Chuck orginally surmised. What I meant was that a UW-Stout fan who would not be inclined to travel all the way to Salem to see the Blue Devils play on the season's final weekend would be a lot more inclined to travel to, say, Rockford or Bloomington or Peoria to see them. As David said, hardcore fans would take vacation days, book a hotel room and possibly even a plane reservation, and travel to Timbuktu to see their team play in the Final Four if need be.

Even casual fans of the schools in these conferences don't add up to a whole lot of people, as you mentioned. And I think we've established that the base of mildly curious, unaffiliated locals who'd be likely to attend a D3 Final Four no matter where it was held is not big enough to fill even a section of an intermediate-sized arena.

The people who were sitting immediately behind me were unaffiliated and, presumably, local fans.  They were pulling for Virginia Wesleyan, but when one of them asked me why so many schools had the word "Wesleyan" in their names and wanted to know what it meant, I took it to mean that he was not a Marlin partisan,

nor are they Methodist,  nor are they someone who understands the growth and development of higher education in the 19th and early 20th century.

I trust that David stayed away from the whole headache of explaining to the people sitting behind him why all of the "-- Wesleyan" schools were (either United or Free) Methodist but not Wesleyan (as in the denomination called The Wesleyan Church), or why the NESCAC school in Connecticut that's called simply Wesleyan University is a completely secular institution. It's harder to explain than Chinese arithmetic.

[Hoosier Titan]

[I trust that David stayed away from the whole headache of explaining to the people sitting behind him why all of the "-- Wesleyan" schools were (either United or Free) Methodist but not Wesleyan (as in the denomination called The Wesleyan Church), or why the NESCAC school in Connecticut that's called simply Wesleyan University is a completely secular institution. It's harder to explain than Chinese arithmetic.

As a faculty member at Illinois Wesleyan, it's always been my understanding that IWU is also, now, a secular institution.  That's certainly true in an operational sense.

[David Collinge]

The people who were sitting immediately behind me were unaffiliated and, presumably, local fans.  They were pulling for Virginia Wesleyan, but when one of them asked me why so many schools had the word "Wesleyan" in their names and wanted to know what it meant, I took it to mean that he was not a Marlin partisan,

nor are they Methodist,  nor are they someone who understands the growth and development of higher education in the 19th and early 20th century.

I trust that David stayed away from the whole headache of explaining to the people sitting behind him why all of the "-- Wesleyan" schools were (either United or Free) Methodist but not Wesleyan (as in the denomination called The Wesleyan Church), or why the NESCAC school in Connecticut that's called simply Wesleyan University is a completely secular institution. It's harder to explain than Chinese arithmetic.

No, I just told him that it was some type of religion, and gave him your phone number if he wanted to know more. 

[diehardfan]

While I don't share David's fear of casual fans (unless it involves DIII becomes huge, commercialized, and expands to be just like it's DI monster counterpart... then I would switch to ), I also am extremely happy with Salem as the venue. Sure, it's not the newest arena ever, but who cares? Most of the more charming gyms are the older ones. Lets not be so materialistic American and all obsessed with shiny new stuff.

Incidentally, my favorite fan of the weekend was the random guy in front of me in the IWU section who was from Virginia, who had never been to a d3 game, and got the ticket off a friend who had an extra, but then became a rabid fan of VA Wes over the course of the weekend. He seemed to like the fact that the guys actually cared about the games and played with passion (and you know, played defense and other things that should be a part of the game of basketall, but aren't at the higher levels). So while there obviously wasn't a lot of people there, between what David and I saw, there were certainly a few.

This is probably terribly idealistic of me, but I wouldn't be me if I wasn't idealistic. I'd love it if the Final Four became an opportunity for more people to fall in love with this game. I tend to find it hard to believe that people who really love sports, and actually give this thing a chance, won't end up loving it in the end. But casual DIII fan should continue to be an oxymoron, IMHO.

Also, VWU loses no one of consequence from this team heading into next year.  Is the CCIW afraid of how good VWU could be, is it denial?  Why haven't I seen this mentioned in everyone's recap of the weekend?

I posted my comments on the VWC board. Someone tried to argue with me that someone else besides VWC would be ranked preseason #1, and I categorically disagreeed. When a young team not only makes a tourney showing, but wins it all, opponents should be concerned, to say the least. I think that goes without saying.

As David said, hardcore fans would take vacation days, book a hotel room and possibly even a plane reservation, and travel to Timbuktu to see their team play in the Final Four if need be.

Guilty! Heck, I'd travel that far even if it didn't involve my team, as long as I could afford the 3,000 dollar ticket!

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

[I trust that David stayed away from the whole headache of explaining to the people sitting behind him why all of the "-- Wesleyan" schools were (either United or Free) Methodist but not Wesleyan (as in the denomination called The Wesleyan Church), or why the NESCAC school in Connecticut that's called simply Wesleyan University is a completely secular institution. It's harder to explain than Chinese arithmetic.

As a faculty member at Illinois Wesleyan, it's always been my understanding that IWU is also, now, a secular institution.  That's certainly true in an operational sense.

So is that "secular as opposed to Christian" or "secular as opposed to denominational?"  There might be a fine line there for some people.

[Gregory Sager]

As a faculty member at Illinois Wesleyan, it's always been my understanding that IWU is also, now, a secular institution.  That's certainly true in an operational sense.

It's true in an operational sense, but the school is nevertheless still affiliated with the United Methodist Church. The UMC lists Illinois Wesleyan as one of its affiliates on the website of the denomination's General Board of Higher Education and Ministry:

http://www.gbhem.org/gbhem/bystate1.html#illinois

The denomination apparently offers loan and scholarship money to students who attend their affiliated schools (which also include North Central and MacMurray among Illinois D3s). There also appears to be some vague oversight commission called the University Senate, appointed by the UMC's General Conference and consisting of educators from across the country.

Nothing I've read on either the UMC or GBHEM websites indicates that the denomination exercises much more than a vestigial presence on most of their campuses, which would explain why most of the Illinois Wesleyan people I've met seem puzzled by the references to the school's United Methodist Church affiliation.

There's a very wide spectrum of ties that schools have to their parent denominations. Some, such as Illinois Wesleyan's, are very loose. Others, such as North Park's, are extremely tight.  NPU is very upfront about identifying its relationship to its parent denomination, The Evangelical Covenant Church, and the denomination's presence on campus is a very prominent one -- even if you discount the fact that the Covenant's seminary is located on the NPU campus.

[David Collinge]

While I don't share David's fear of casual fans...

Fear? 

Someone tried to argue with me that someone else besides VWC would be ranked preseason #1, and I categorically disagreeed. When a young team not only makes a tourney showing, but wins it all, opponents should be concerned, to say the least. I think that goes without saying.

That someone was me.  Clearly VWC's opponents should be concerned, and the Marlins will be and should be very highly ranked in the preseason poll.  Although it is ridiculously early to speculate about such things, I do believe that the preseason #1 will turn out to be Wooster, a team which has had a 7-year long love affair with the poll voters and which returns four starters (two of them All-Americans) and every key reserve.  The only graduation losses are the point guard and a student assistant coach.  Whether Wooster or VWC or someone else should be #1 is not something I'd know (and anyway, it's far too early to speculate); I'm just making a prediction.

[Gregory Sager]

No, I just told him that it was some type of religion, and gave him your phone number if he wanted to know more. 

That's fine, as long as he doesn't call collect.

So is that "secular as opposed to Christian" or "secular as opposed to denominational?"  There might be a fine line there for some people.

Excellent point. I was using "secular" in the second sense, given that this discussion was about the use of the term "Wesleyan", but there's an argument to be made on behalf of the first sense of the term.

[Hoosier Titan]

[I trust that David stayed away from the whole headache of explaining to the people sitting behind him why all of the "-- Wesleyan" schools were (either United or Free) Methodist but not Wesleyan (as in the denomination called The Wesleyan Church), or why the NESCAC school in Connecticut that's called simply Wesleyan University is a completely secular institution. It's harder to explain than Chinese arithmetic.

As a faculty member at Illinois Wesleyan, it's always been my understanding that IWU is also, now, a secular institution.  That's certainly true in an operational sense.

So is that "secular as opposed to Christian" or "secular as opposed to denominational?"  There might be a fine line there for some people.

Oy!  That's a pretty fine line for me, at least.  Well, there is still, officially, a "Chapel Hour" at 11:00 a.m. on Wednesday.  There is a service in the chapel then, which I've attended about three times in four years.  While it sometimes looks pretty much like a traditional church service (as on Ash Wednesday, for example), it has also included performances by gospel choirs and Hindu dancing.  So, if I'm interpreting your fine line correctly, it's "secular as opposed to Christian."  At least that's how it looks to me.

The "vestigial presence" that Greg mentions is tenuous indeed.

[diehardfan]

  Perhaps fear was too strong of a word.  

[Gregory Sager]

 Well, there is still, officially, a "Chapel Hour" at 11:00 a.m. on Wednesday.  There is a service in the chapel then, which I've attended about three times in four years.  While it sometimes looks pretty much like a traditional church service (as on Ash Wednesday, for example), it has also included performances by gospel choirs and Hindu dancing.

Heh. I'm trying to imagine Hindu dancing being included in a service at NPU's Anderson Chapel or Wheaton's Edman Chapel. For some reason, I'm having a hard time conjuring up that image. 

On the other hand, I would encourage NPU to start offering tandoori and vindaloo dishes in the dining hall. It certainly couldn't hurt. I ate in the dining hall a couple of times with the rest of the NPU Records Office staff when I was working there in the late nineties, and the food was as bad as I remembered it from my undergrad days. Not quite as bad as hospital or airline food, but not much better.

[mightyIWUmolly]

some Titan love - read with discretion:

i was disappointed not to get to the tournament over the weekend (although i felt i could live vicariously through my boyfriend and his buddies who attended), but i was able to get plenty of updates from them when i was presenting at my conference, which was definitely worth attending.  i wish i could have seen the last games those senior Titans played together, but it was not to be.  i'm glad i was able to get to the Puget Sound game at Lawrence and see them off with a fantastic game and a glorious celebration.  maybe a celebration back on campus is in store?  some sort of scrimmage game, just for fun?

i know i haven't been following this board, or even the team, for all four years, but i have attended school with these guys for that long.  in fact, i remember Mike McGraw in my American National Government group presentations my very first semester here, and Steve Schweer and I were carpooling buddies to our field placement in one of our education classes (which we both dropped at the same time, coincidentally).  i'm so impressed with how these guys are, both on and off the court, and i know they'll be successful in whatever they do.  i know that the school cares deeply about them, and it'll be hard to lose them, from the team and from the classroom, too.

i feel a little piece of my IWU heart has left with this postseason, but i'm glad i was able to see them while i could and that i was able to get my family and friends in to see how great DIII basketball really is.  these Titans have really shown me how to truly love the game again, and i will never stop following my Titans now.  the leadership graduating with this senior class will be sorely missed, but I think the Freemans, especially Zach, can carry the team.  in fact, I'm quite excited to see how they'll develop next year as the new leaders.

i'm just glad i had the privilege, not only of seeing these guys play, but of being their classmates.  thanks for a great run, guys.

[Greek Tragedy]

What would be so wrong about rotating the Final Four, like the World Cup or the D1 tourney or the Super Bowl?  Play it in Salem this year, play it in the midwest area next year, heck play it in San Diego the following year (don't they hold a nice holiday tourney ever year?) etc.  Like Salem, just find a 5,000 seat arena.  I think you could build a fan base by doing that.