MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[markerickson]

I know the circumstances surrounding her injury.  So what prevents a freak accident being sustained by a Thunder player during a blowout?  A: nothing. 

[Gregory Sager]

Link lists psychology as Mr. Blake's major.

Paige "McBuckets" (Her NLI ID), last year's National Women's DI POY, sustained a knee injury in the last minute of a blowout victory by UConn.  Why was she even on the floor, Coach Gino???

Likewise, why was Wheaton's big three on the floor with under four minutes to play in a blowout victory versus NPU?

Sorry, this is a dumb argument. She literally got hurt on a non-contact play dribbling the ball up the court, the definition of a freak occurrence that could have happened in minute 1 or minute 30. It was the most mundane situation imaginable. She wasn't flying through the lane for a layup and getting fouled into the first row.
Regular starters/stars are on the floor at the end of games ALL THE TIME. Injuries aren't limited to the last 2 minutes of a game. This isn't football, no one is getting gang tackled while wearing cleats. Unless your player is actively nursing an injury, there's no reason to limit them.
Only one Wheaton player played over 30 minutes against NPU. Since Wheaton usually sports a small rotation (this year in particular), they lean heavily on their stars and they usually lead the league in minutes played or at least in top 3-4. Aston Francis averaged 35 minutes per game his last two years. The players are conditioned accordingly to handle the load.

I don't think that that's a valid argument, inasmuch as Mike Schauer did empty his bench at the 1:45 mark with Wheaton up by 25. The issue, therefore, isn't that he gives heavy minutes to his rotation players; it's why he chose to sub them out at 1:45 rather than at 4:00 as Mark Erickson would've preferred.

The first thing that I'll say about Mark's post is that he is obscuring the matter by focusing upon injuries (via his Paige Bueckers example) as the primary reason why coaches sub out their regulars towards the end of already-decided college basketball games. I think that Mark is in error about that. While I suppose that there are some coaches who are conscious of the possibility of a player getting injured in a situation in which there was no real need for him or her to be in the game, there are two more pertinent reasons why coaches sub out their regulars towards the end of a blowout: sportsmanship, and getting playing time for the benchwarmers.

The unwritten rule of sportsmanship among high-school and college basketball coaches is that the leading team's head coach should remove his or her regulars from the game in a blowout once the lead is secure enough (given the variables of the size of the lead and the time remaining) that removing his or her best players from the game poses no threat to comfortably recording the impending win. Because there's two variables involved -- three, really, if you take into consideration that every head coach has his or her own opinion as to what constitutes a secure lead at any given point in the second half -- there's no hard-and-fast point when the unwritten rule takes effect. In fact, quite often it's the trailing team's head coach who will decide the matter by subbing out his or her regulars first, which in turn then makes it incumbent upon the leading team's coach to practice good sportsmanship by following suit.

The other more pertinent reason, getting playing time for the benchwarmers, is self-explanatory.

Because of the variables, it's hard to argue that Mike Schauer was obliged to sub out his regulars at 4:15 (when his team was up by 20) or 3:49 (when his team was up by 22), those being the two stoppages closest to Mark's preferred 4:00 mark, or at 1:45 when he actually did so. I had no problem with Mike waiting until 1:45 to send in his subs -- and I should note as well that he called a timeout for the specific purpose of creating a stoppage in order to sub, and he indicated to the officials not to bother actually using up the allotted thirty seconds -- and I doubt that Tom Slyder had a problem with it, either. Mike might've been waiting for Tom to make the first move by running the white flag up the mast and subbing out his regulars (Tom did so at the :58 mark), or he might've felt for his own reasons that 1:45 was the right time to do so. Speaking as a North Park fan, I took it as a compliment to NPU that Mike waited that long; I saw it as a sign of his respect for the ability of the Vikings to mount a late comeback, not that the Vikings ever really showed themselves capable of doing so on Wednesday night.

Anyone who considers the possibility of a late run of that magnitude by the trailing team to be implausible should take into account what happened in the other NPU vs. WC game on Wednesday night, the women's game in King Arena. The Vikings were running away with a total blowout, leading 51-24 at the half, and still held a lead in the 20s with five minutes and change to play. When the game reached Mark's preferred 4:00 mark, NPU still led by 17 -- which wasn't much different than the 20-point lead that the Wheaton men held at the same point in the men's game at the crackerbox. But the Wheaton women were actually in the midst of a 15-2 run that would narrow North Park's lead down to ten, and WC even cut it down to nine at :30 and again at :12 before the Vikings eventually prevailed by 11. Now, despite some excited utterances in the final minute by Wheaton broadcaster Sean Frey (which nobody should hold against him, given the circumstances), NPU wasn't really in danger of losing, because Wheaton didn't have a realistic chance to cut down the entire lead by that point. You have to play 100% absolutely perfect ball to chop down a 17-point deficit in four minutes, and, for as well as the Wheaton women played in that span, they weren't perfect -- they missed two shots that NPU rebounded and they gave up a steal, all of which allowed the Vikings to at minimum run more time off of the clock. But it nevertheless illustrates why coaches can be rightfully paranoid enough to wait until there's two minutes or less before emptying their bench, even if their lead is as much as 20 points.

It's all completely subjective. I think that it's not really an argument worth having ... which, of course, didn't stop me from sticking my nose in it, anyway.

[blue_jays]

I know the circumstances surrounding her injury.  So what prevents a freak accident being sustained by a Thunder player during a blowout?  A: nothing.

Statistical probability is the answer. Give me a quick estimation of how many serious injuries you've seen watching college basketball, then narrow it down by how many times those injuries have happened in a blowout in the last two minutes. Then divide that number by how many minutes of basketball you've watched in your life. It would be a percentage too tiny to even note.
You can also tear your knee up walking down the street. Does that prevent you from leaving the house because of fear of injury?

[Gregory Sager]

I know the circumstances surrounding her injury.  So what prevents a freak accident being sustained by a Thunder player during a blowout?  A: nothing.

Statistical probability is the answer. Give me a quick estimation of how many serious injuries you've seen watching college basketball, then narrow it down by how many times those injuries have happened in a blowout in the last two minutes. Then divide that number by how many minutes of basketball you've watched in your life. It would be a percentage too tiny to even note.
You can also tear your knee up walking down the street. Does that prevent you from leaving the house because of fear of injury?

Exactly.

(As long as we're talking about statistical implausibilities, it's also worth noting that women are far more susceptible to knee injuries, whether caused by freak accidents or athletic competition, than are men.)

[GoPerry]

Link lists psychology as Mr. Blake's major.

Paige "McBuckets" (Her NLI ID), last year's National Women's DI POY, sustained a knee injury in the last minute of a blowout victory by UConn.  Why was she even on the floor, Coach Gino???

Likewise, why was Wheaton's big three on the floor with under four minutes to play in a blowout victory versus NPU?

Sorry, this is a dumb argument. She literally got hurt on a non-contact play dribbling the ball up the court, the definition of a freak occurrence that could have happened in minute 1 or minute 30. It was the most mundane situation imaginable. She wasn't flying through the lane for a layup and getting fouled into the first row.
Regular starters/stars are on the floor at the end of games ALL THE TIME. Injuries aren't limited to the last 2 minutes of a game. This isn't football, no one is getting gang tackled while wearing cleats. Unless your player is actively nursing an injury, there's no reason to limit them.
Only one Wheaton player played over 30 minutes against NPU. Since Wheaton usually sports a small rotation (this year in particular), they lean heavily on their stars and they usually lead the league in minutes played or at least in top 3-4. Aston Francis averaged 35 minutes per game his last two years. The players are conditioned accordingly to handle the load.

I don't think that that's a valid argument, inasmuch as Mike Schauer did empty his bench at the 1:45 mark with Wheaton up by 25. The issue, therefore, isn't that he gives heavy minutes to his rotation players; it's why he chose to sub them out at 1:45 rather than at 4:00 as Mark Erickson would've preferred.

The first thing that I'll say about Mark's post is that he is obscuring the matter by focusing upon injuries (via his Paige Bueckers example) as the primary reason why coaches sub out their regulars towards the end of already-decided college basketball games. I think that Mark is in error about that. While I suppose that there are some coaches who are conscious of the possibility of a player getting injured in a situation in which there was no real need for him or her to be in the game, there are two more pertinent reasons why coaches sub out their regulars towards the end of a blowout: sportsmanship, and getting playing time for the benchwarmers.

The unwritten rule of sportsmanship among high-school and college basketball coaches is that the leading team's head coach should remove his or her regulars from the game in a blowout once the lead is secure enough (given the variables of the size of the lead and the time remaining) that removing his or her best players from the game poses no threat to comfortably recording the impending win. Because there's two variables involved -- three, really, if you take into consideration that every head coach has his or her own opinion as to what constitutes a secure lead at any given point in the second half -- there's no hard-and-fast point when the unwritten rule takes effect. In fact, quite often it's the trailing team's head coach who will decide the matter by subbing out his or her regulars first, which in turn then makes it incumbent upon the leading team's coach to practice good sportsmanship by following suit.

The other more pertinent reason, getting playing time for the benchwarmers, is self-explanatory.

Because of the variables, it's hard to argue that Mike Schauer was obliged to sub out his regulars at 4:15 (when his team was up by 20) or 3:49 (when his team was up by 22), those being the two stoppages closest to Mark's preferred 4:00 mark, or at 1:45 when he actually did so. I had no problem with Mike waiting until 1:45 to send in his subs -- and I should note as well that he called a timeout for the specific purpose of creating a stoppage in order to sub, and he indicated to the officials not to bother actually using up the allotted thirty seconds -- and I doubt that Tom Slyder had a problem with it, either. Mike might've been waiting for Tom to make the first move by running the white flag up the mast and subbing out his regulars (Tom did so at the :58 mark), or he might've felt for his own reasons that 1:45 was the right time to do so. Speaking as a North Park fan, I took it as a compliment to NPU that Mike waited that long; I saw it as a sign of his respect for the ability of the Vikings to mount a late comeback, not that the Vikings ever really showed themselves capable of doing so on Wednesday night.

Anyone who considers the possibility of a late run of that magnitude by the trailing team to be implausible should take into account what happened in the other NPU vs. WC game on Wednesday night, the women's game in King Arena. The Vikings were running away with a total blowout, leading 51-24 at the half, and still held a lead in the 20s with five minutes and change to play. When the game reached Mark's preferred 4:00 mark, NPU still led by 17 -- which wasn't much different than the 20-point lead that the Wheaton men held at the same point in the men's game at the crackerbox. But the Wheaton women were actually in the midst of a 15-2 run that would narrow North Park's lead down to ten, and WC even cut it down to nine at :30 and again at :12 before the Vikings eventually prevailed by 11. Now, despite some excited utterances in the final minute by Wheaton broadcaster Sean Frey (which nobody should hold against him, given the circumstances), NPU wasn't really in danger of losing, because Wheaton didn't have a realistic chance to cut down the entire lead by that point. You have to play 100% absolutely perfect ball to chop down a 17-point deficit in four minutes, and, for as well as the Wheaton women played in that span, they weren't perfect -- they missed two shots that NPU rebounded and they gave up a steal, all of which allowed the Vikings to at minimum run more time off of the clock. But it nevertheless illustrates why coaches can be rightfully paranoid enough to wait until there's two minutes or less before emptying their bench, even if their lead is as much as 20 points.

It's all completely subjective. I think that it's not really an argument worth having ... which, of course, didn't stop me from sticking my nose in it, anyway.

I would also add that coaches are loathe to jump the gun as they want to avoid having to bring one or two starters back in to secure the victory.  For one thing, it's a little embarrassing but of course they will do it.  But secondly, it is a demoralizer for the bench guys who need to be re-seated because they couldn't play well enough to close out a game.

If Schauer had subbed out at 4:00 and NPU had happened to close within 10 pts at the 2:00 mark, he would've had to bring Cruickshank or Adom or both back in.

[Gregory Sager]

I would also add that coaches are loathe to jump the gun as they want to avoid having to bring one or two starters back in to secure the victory.  For one thing, it's a little embarrassing but of course they will do it.  But secondly, it is a demoralizer for the bench guys who need to be re-seated because they couldn't play well enough to close out a game.

If Schauer had subbed out at 4:00 and NPU had happened to close within 10 pts at the 2:00 mark, he would've had to bring Cruickshank or Adom or both back in.

Good point about it being both embarrassing for the coach and demoralizing for the benchwarmers. A few days before Christmas I attended a high-school game in South Bend in which one of my nephews was the starting point guard for the visiting team. His coach is a 27-year-old former NAIA All-American who is in his first year as a head coach. With 3:11 to go and his team up by 22 he took out my nephew and the other four starters. My brother-in-law and I immediately looked at each other and agreed that it was a dumb move.

The South Bend team quickly proceeded to put on a press and scored nine unanswered points in only fifty seconds, with the subs from my nephew's team -- who looked like deer caught in the headlights -- only able to get the ball over the halfcourt line once in that span, missing an "I'm-freaked-out-that-I-have-the-ball-in-my-hands-in-a-varsity-game" 25-footer that went nowhere near the basket.

All five starters went back in at that point, and my nephew's team ended up winning by 14. The five subs each had their eyes locked downward on their shoetops as they slunk off the court, and I didn't see them make eye contact with anybody on their way into the locker room after the final buzzer. They were totally demoralized. As my brother-in-law said about the coach, "He knows basketball, but he doesn't know coaching yet. He's a kid. He'll learn."

[kiko]

One other observation on this: in many cases there will be a gap between when the coach moves to empty the bench and when the reserves actually enter the game -- this is completely dependent on when there happens to be a break in play.  For instance, Wheaton could have sent its reserves to the scorer's table at 3:20 (or some random time) but because there was no stoppage, they didn't enter until 1:45 (and per Gregory's comment, this opportunity only occurred because Wheaton took a timeout specifically to make the change).  In other cases, the coach might make the change during a dead ball situation and there is no gap before the players enter.

The boxscore and play-by-play won't indicate when the players went to the table or how much of their potential playing time was spent cooling their jets.  Those who were in the house downtown or watching the stream will know roughly when this occurred if they were paying attention to the benches.  Since I'd rather rearrange my sock drawer than watch a NPU-Wheaton contest, I don't know what the specifics were for this particular game.

[Gregory Sager]

For the record, Mike sent them to the scorer's table between 2:30 and 2:20. He didn't send them all at once; he sent two, then he sent another one a few moments later, and then the final two a few moments after that.

[Titan Q]

#3-Illinois Wesleyan (9-2, 2-1 CCIW) at Carthage (7-6, 0-4), 4pm CT ...


#3-Illinois Wesleyan (9-2, 2-1 CCIW)
G - Luke Yoder, 6-0 Jr (10.5 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 3.0 apg)
G - Cory Noe, 6-2 Sr. (14.4 ppg, 3.9 rpg, 1.5 apg)
G - Pete Lambesis, 6-4 Sr. (12.2 ppg, 3.6 rpg, 2.7 apg)
F - Cody Mitchell, 6-7 Jr. (9.2 ppg, 6.2 rpg)
F - Matt Leritz, 6-7 Sr. (16.1 ppg, 11.6 rpg)
---
G - Ryan Sroka, 6-5 So. (4.8 ppg, 3.5 rpg)
G - Lucas Heflen, 6-2 Jr. (4.6 ppg)


Carthage (7-6, 0-4)
G - Chrishawn Cook, 6-2 Sr.  (8.2 ppg, 2.8 rpg, 3.2 apg)
G - Colton Sigel, 6-1 Fr.  (8.6 ppg, 1.8 rpg, 2.1 apg)
G - Fillip Bulatovic, 6-5 Jr.  (18.4 ppg, 8.9 rpg, 5.2 apg)
F - Garrett Horner, 6-4 So.  (12.4 ppg, 4.5 rpg)
F - Nemi Ostojic, 6-7 So.  (4.3 ppg, 3.7 rpg)
-----
F - Tyler Guest, 6-4 Sr.  (6.9 ppg, 2.9 rpg)
G - AJ Johnson, 6-4 Fr.  (6.3 ppg)



IWU radio (Eric Stock
https://www.iwusports.com/watch/?Live=279&type=Live

Video
https://www.carthage.edu/multimedia/webcast-4/

Live Stats
https://athletics.carthage.edu/sidearmstats/mbball/summary

IWU Game Notes
https://s3.amazonaws.com/sidearm.sites/iwusports.com/documents/2022/1/7/mbb2122game12_Carthage.pdf

[Titan Q]

Test results for both teams come back this morning.  We won't be sure the IWU/Carthage game will played until the Titans get on the bus.

Strange times.

[Titan Q]

Regarding the IWU/Elmhurst cancellation this past week...

I've heard Elmhurst had 14 positives.  14.

This thing is flying all over the place.

[Titan Q]

#3-Illinois Wesleyan (9-2, 2-1 CCIW) at Carthage (7-6, 0-4), 4pm CT ...


#3-Illinois Wesleyan (9-2, 2-1 CCIW)
G - Luke Yoder, 6-0 Jr (10.5 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 3.0 apg)
G - Cory Noe, 6-2 Sr. (14.4 ppg, 3.9 rpg, 1.5 apg)
G - Pete Lambesis, 6-4 Sr. (12.2 ppg, 3.6 rpg, 2.7 apg)
F - Cody Mitchell, 6-7 Jr. (9.2 ppg, 6.2 rpg)
F - Matt Leritz, 6-7 Sr. (16.1 ppg, 11.6 rpg)
---
G - Ryan Sroka, 6-5 So. (4.8 ppg, 3.5 rpg)
G - Lucas Heflen, 6-2 Jr. (4.6 ppg)


Carthage (7-6, 0-4)
G - Chrishawn Cook, 6-2 Sr.  (8.2 ppg, 2.8 rpg, 3.2 apg)
G - Colton Sigel, 6-1 Fr.  (8.6 ppg, 1.8 rpg, 2.1 apg)
G - Fillip Bulatovic, 6-5 Jr.  (18.4 ppg, 8.9 rpg, 5.2 apg)
F - Garrett Horner, 6-4 So.  (12.4 ppg, 4.5 rpg)
F - Nemi Ostojic, 6-7 So.  (4.3 ppg, 3.7 rpg)
-----
F - Tyler Guest, 6-4 Sr.  (6.9 ppg, 2.9 rpg)
G - AJ Johnson, 6-4 Fr.  (6.3 ppg)



IWU radio (Eric Stock
https://www.iwusports.com/watch/?Live=279&type=Live

Video
https://www.carthage.edu/multimedia/webcast-4/

Live Stats
https://athletics.carthage.edu/sidearmstats/mbball/summary

IWU Game Notes
https://s3.amazonaws.com/sidearm.sites/iwusports.com/documents/2022/1/7/mbb2122game12_Carthage.pdf

Game off.

https://www.iwusports.com/news/2022/1/8/mens-basketball-mens-hoops-postpones-game-at-carthage.aspx

[WUPHF]

In response to a virus that poses a near-zero risk of long term consequences.... Even MSNBC, a channel that has made a lot of money off of Covid fearmongering, has called Covid the equivalent of the flu for those who are otherwise young and healthy...

[Pat Coleman]

I know it's difficult to extricate virus from politics but ... can we maybe not have that commentary?

In response to a virus that poses a near-zero risk of long term consequences.... Even MSNBC, a channel that has made a lot of money off of Covid fearmongering, has called Covid the equivalent of the flu for those who are otherwise young and healthy...

[WUPHF]

My post was not explicitly political.  MSNBC is a business first and foremost and they have used the pandemic to draw viewers.  They are easing up on that.  By the way, can we extricate the fantasy league threads from the multi-regionals?