MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Next Man Up]

1. D3Hoops calls the result "perhaps the biggest upset of the year in NCAA Division III men's basketball."
Perhaps?  Seems to be little doubt it's the upset of the year. How about the upset of the last several years?

I'll field this one.

The perhaps comes from the fact that Webster beat Washington University in the first week of the season. I think people realize that the inability to practice and play did disproportionately affect the schools that shut down basketball for 600+ days.

I might be on board with the Ron Rose comments, given the number of games they played.  That extra Monday game that both IWU and North Central played is an anomaly this time of year.

Good point, WUPHF.
I guess the question comes down to which you consider the bigger upset—- Webster over WashU in the first week or Concordia over IWU at this point of the season?

[Next Man Up]

I can't believe that I'm typing these words, but ... Concordia (IL) and Illinois Wesleyan are going to overtime at Shirk.

If you couldn't believe what you typed above, what did you think when you typed...............

Oh-tee final from Shirk:

Concordia (IL) 81
Illinois Wesleyan 75

I thought to myself, "The Wesleyan fans are going to retire that five-guard-offense running gag of theirs for good now."

To sleep, perchance to dream.   

[Titan Q]

2. It's interesting that we've not yet received a usual post game summary/analysis from IWU Chief D3Hoops Correspondent Titan Q who always constantly provides us with a seemingly unending flood of information, sometimes welcome and sometimes unendurable, concerning all things Wesleyan.

I decided recently I am not interested in posting much here anymore.  I just don't enjoy it like I used to.

I made no postgame comments here after any of IWU's last 5 games - starting with *IWU wins* over NPU, Carroll, and Carthage.  I thought maybe I would just post my gameday information, etc to stay involved.

But your post, AndOne, reaffirms what I don't like about this place anymore. 

I've been part of this CCIW forum since day one - 24 years I think.  But this will be my last post here.  I'll probably participate in the Pool C and Top 25 boards on occasion.

I wish everyone well and have enjoyed the friendships that have originated here - especially with the late Dave Lawrenz who I still miss very much.

[augie77]

Say it ain't so, Q.   

[Next Man Up]

2. It's interesting that we've not yet received a usual post game summary/analysis from IWU Chief D3Hoops Correspondent Titan Q who always constantly provides us with a seemingly unending flood of information, sometimes welcome and sometimes unendurable, concerning all things Wesleyan.

I decided recently I am not interested in posting much here anymore.  I just don't enjoy it like I used to.

I made no postgame comments here after any of IWU's last 5 games - starting with *IWU wins* over NPU, Carroll, and Carthage.  I thought maybe I would just post my gameday information, etc to stay involved.

But your post, AndOne, reaffirms what I don't like about this place anymore. 

I've been part of this CCIW forum since day one - 24 years I think.  But this will be my last post here.  I'll probably participate in the Pool C and Top 25 boards on occasion.

I wish everyone well and have enjoyed the friendships that have originated here - especially with the late Dave Lawrenz who I still miss very much.

Well, the decision is, of course, yours..........., BUT,

Consider that so much of your information is so insightful to this community. Not only your Pool C analysis, but things concerning Wesleyan that many of us are certainly interested in. While we aren't always interested in, and don't care to constantly know every minute detail concerning IWU teams, even non green fans like myself often appreciate much of your reporting.

We've all recently heard about the decreased level of interest and participation here. Given our involvement and interest in D3 stuff, it's unfortunate that has occurred. While some of it is unquestionably due to Covid, I question whether that's the whole reason, or even the major reason. I have my own ideas. I'm sure others do too.

[Pat Coleman]

1. D3Hoops calls the result "perhaps the biggest upset of the year in NCAA Division III men's basketball."
Perhaps?  Seems to be little doubt it's the upset of the year. How about the upset of the last several years?

I'll field this one.

The perhaps comes from the fact that Webster beat Washington University in the first week of the season. I think people realize that the inability to practice and play did disproportionately affect the schools that shut down basketball for 600+ days.

Webster: Massey 328.
Concordia-Chicago: Massey 182.

I think we're good leaving the qualifier in. Thanks.

Meanwhile, Bob can always leave the board with a big pronouncement and then come back and post under a different name. That seems to happen on occasion.

[Next Man Up]

One of the reasons being just asking a question is apparently enough to get you smitten. 

[Next Man Up]

1. D3Hoops calls the result "perhaps the biggest upset of the year in NCAA Division III men's basketball."
Perhaps?  Seems to be little doubt it's the upset of the year. How about the upset of the last several years?

I'll field this one.

The perhaps comes from the fact that Webster beat Washington University in the first week of the season. I think people realize that the inability to practice and play did disproportionately affect the schools that shut down basketball for 600+ days.

Webster: Massey 328.
Concordia-Chicago: Massey 182.

I think we're good leaving the qualifier in. Thanks.

Meanwhile, Bob can always leave the board with a big pronouncement and then come back and post under a different name. That seems to happen on occasion.

Or, he can leave the board big pronouncement or not, and then come back under a different name. Thats happened on occasion too. 

And once a name has been shifted to "guest" status, is it possible to be resurrected? 

[SpartyBlue]

1. D3Hoops calls the result "perhaps the biggest upset of the year in NCAA Division III men's basketball."
Perhaps?  Seems to be little doubt it's the upset of the year. How about the upset of the last several years?

I'll field this one.

The perhaps comes from the fact that Webster beat Washington University in the first week of the season. I think people realize that the inability to practice and play did disproportionately affect the schools that shut down basketball for 600+ days.

Webster: Massey 328.
Concordia-Chicago: Massey 182.

I think we're good leaving the qualifier in. Thanks.

Meanwhile, Bob can always leave the board with a big pronouncement and then come back and post under a different name. That seems to happen on occasion.

Remember, WashU came back a week later and destroyed Webster by 32.  CUC beating IWU at this stage of the season is a herculean upset.  More importantly, what it confirms to me is that there is no dominant team this year in D3, really think many of the teams in the top 50 could make deep postseason runs.  You can't say that every year.

[WUPHF]

Remember, WashU came back a week later and destroyed Webster by 32. 

I had thought about adding this, but thanks.

It was the worst result of the season for Webster and they have played a relatively good schedule.

Being a Division III basketball fan means being a fan of your opponents for at least the rest of the regular season.  The Spartans are rolling which is good with me...

[Gregory Sager]

Oh-tee final from Shirk:

Concordia (IL) 81
Illinois Wesleyan 75

Wow. Congrats, RFMichigan. Signature win for your Cougars!

Thank you. That may have been the best win in the history of the program.

And from what I heard from coach Ron Rose in the postgame interview, the Titans were just too overtired mentally and physically from playing too many games at once without enough time to rest and practice.

Sorry, but I ain't buying what he's selling. I have a great deal of respect for Ron Rose, but the fact of the matter is that everybody is overtired mentally and physically right now from playing too many games at once without enough time to rest and practice. His team is far from the only one that's found itself with a backlogged schedule due to Covid postponements and rearrangements.

Plus, he and Cougars coach Steve Kollar scheduled this game ... what, a week ago? He did it so that his Titans could get in their allotted 25. It wasn't necessary to add this game at the last minute. It wasn't a league game. Nobody put a gun to his head and forced him to add this contest.

When Ron Rose scheduled this game he probably figured it would be little more than exercise for his team, and a game in which the last man on the bench would almost assuredly see some PT.

I'm not going to try to guess what was in Ron Rose's head when he and Steve Kollar shared that phone call. What I know, though, is that Rose is well aware from long experience of the minutiae of Pool C considerations, and it was becoming evident a few weeks ago (presumably around the time that last night's game was booked by Rose and Kollar) that Concordia (IL) was likely to finish somewhere around .500 this season, or perhaps even a bit north of it, and was thus an opponent that would at worst only slightly drag down Illinois Wesleyan's prodigious SOS.

Then there's the fact that Kollar was willing to bring his team to Shirk, rather than holding out for Rose to bring his team to Geiseman. And perhaps there was an agreement made that this would be a one-off, with no return trip expected from the Titans next season or in 2023-24. (It's a shame that Bob says he's not posting here anymore, because as the only IWU insider who posts on d3boards.com he's likely the only person who could tell us whether or not yesterday's game was a one-off or the first half of a home-and-home agreement between Rose and Kollar.)

I wouldn't be surprised if those were Ron Rose's primary considerations when booking Concordia (IL).

One thing we can all agree upon: IWU ended up playing a far better opponent than the team it was originally supposed to play, Mount St. Vincent. The Dolphins are 7-10, and they're 5-5 in the super-weak Skyline Conference. Not to put too much weight upon a transitive, but Yeshiva ripped Mount St. Vincent to pieces by 32 points earlier this season, and I'd hazard a guess that the Maccabees will do the same thing to the Dolphins when Yeshiva travels up to the Bronx for the return game on February 15.

I might be on board with the Ron Rose comments, given the number of games they played.  That extra Monday game that both IWU and North Central played is an anomaly this time of year.

It's an anomaly only in a historical sense, given that (unlike the MIAC, for whom a Monday/Wednesday/Saturday week has been old hat for decades) the CCIW hasn't made a habit out of scheduling three games in one week for any given team in January and February. It isn't an anomaly this year, though; the CCIW has already had four Monday games this month, and the two more that will be played tomorrow night will make it six to close out the month.

Good point, WUPHF.
I guess the question comes down to which you consider the bigger upset—- Webster over WashU in the first week or Concordia over IWU at this point of the season?

1. D3Hoops calls the result "perhaps the biggest upset of the year in NCAA Division III men's basketball."
Perhaps?  Seems to be little doubt it's the upset of the year. How about the upset of the last several years?

I'll field this one.

The perhaps comes from the fact that Webster beat Washington University in the first week of the season. I think people realize that the inability to practice and play did disproportionately affect the schools that shut down basketball for 600+ days.

Webster: Massey 328.
Concordia-Chicago: Massey 182.

I think we're good leaving the qualifier in. Thanks.

Remember, WashU came back a week later and destroyed Webster by 32.  CUC beating IWU at this stage of the season is a herculean upset.  More importantly, what it confirms to me is that there is no dominant team this year in D3, really think many of the teams in the top 50 could make deep postseason runs.  You can't say that every year.

This is an interesting thread. It's completely subjective, of course, but there are good points being made on both sides. I would just add that SpartyBlue's comment about the result of Webster vs. Wash U, Part II is a trenchant one, and his and Mark's observation about the point in the season when Saturday night's upset at Shirk took place has some validity. Upsets at the beginning of the season are not an uncommon phenomena, given that no amount of data regarding last year's performances and off-season recruiting additions can replace the hard objective truths of what happens when two teams take to the floor in the season's first week or so. But 15-20 games in, when both teams already have well-established identities ... well, in that case an upset of this magnitude tends to really stick out more.

Still, I agree with Pat that using a qualifier in the d3hoops.com Saturday recap was the right call.

[Gregory Sager]

Also, I think we need to cut Concordia River Forest some slack. 

They are as close to Chicago as you can get.  2-3 miles from the Austin Blvd and a quick walk to the Green Line. 

They are closer than Saint Xaiver which is technically located in the city limits.

This is not true. St. Xavier is actually in Chicago. To be precise, it's in the Mount Greenwood neighborhood on the Far Southwest Side; Mount Greenwood is one of the 77 officially-recognized Chicago communities used for statistical and planning purposes. SXU has a Chicago street address, and it lies within the city limits. No "technically" qualifier changes that. You don't get closer to Chicago than being in Chicago. The Concordia campus is a little over a mile and a half west of the city limits. It's located in a suburb that doesn't even border the city, unless you count the southwest/northeast diagonal of the four municipalities located at the corner of North and Harlem to be a border -- and that's pretty far away from the Concordia campus as well.

Unfortunately, Concordia cannot fully capitalize on their proximity to Chicago given the tragic history of racism and the development of the Austin neighborhood.

Well, the school is certainly trying to do so, having re-branded itself as a Chicago school rather than a River Forest school. If you look at the school's website, though, it's pretty clear that the school is trying to have it both ways. It promotes a phantom Chicago identity in its name, and by titling one of its dropdowns under Campus Life as "Life in Chicago", which links to a page headed by a picture of several students in school gear holding straps on a Green Line el train.

But beneath that picture is the subhead, "Take advantage of the educational, professional and cultural opportunities downtown Chicago has to offer, while enjoying the benefits of living in a upscale suburb." This is spelled out in another Campus Life dropdown page, "Surrounding Community", which has a picture of the campus and the head/subhead, "Step beyond campus to find unique offerings in the surrounding neighborhoods" / "As a student, you will enjoy the safe, charming neighborhood of River Forest that immediately surrounds Concordia University Chicago. The local communities are full of excellent restaurants, stores, entertainment facilities, public parks and many other places of interest. but likewise promotes the quiet and picturesque surroundings of River Forest." Note that the first adjective used in the subhead is "safe" -- a legitimate point aimed at Mom and Dad as much as at their teenaged child, but a telling one in terms of yet another Campus Life dropdown, "Living on Campus".

Here again the "Living on Campus" subhead is a dead giveaway of what's going on behind the school's marketing: "As a residential student you will live in the safe, charming neighborhood of River Forest that surrounds Concordia University Chicago. You'll quickly find everything to meet your daily needs is steps away. Plus, just 10 miles away, you can explore the world-class city of Chicago." Note that the school's online literature in two different places refuses to acknowledge that River Forest is an incorporated municipality -- in other words, a genuine independent village in its own right, just like Elmhurst and Wheaton and Naperville -- and instead identifies it as a "neighborhood," implying that it is interchangeable with Lincoln Park or Wrigleyville or Bucktown. Moreover, not only does the subhead immediately recapitulate the safety aspect, it gives away the ballgame by saying that "the world-class city of Chicago" is ten miles away. Well, it isn't. As I said, Chicago is a little bit more than a mile and a half away, not ten. The Loop is ten miles away (it's actually less than that, but ten's a good rounding number for promotional purposes). This subhead tells us that the Loop is the logical destination of any kid who attends the school when he or she gets on the Green Line. Everything in between (i.e., the first dozen stops on the Green Line) is clearly the urban equivalent of Flyover as far as the school's administation is concerned. This spells out your comment about the impoverished black-majority Austin neighborhood that forms Chicago's side of the Austin Blvd. border between the city and the suburb of Oak Park.

The school can call itself whatever it likes, and, all things considered, I can't really blame it for the way that it is marketing itself. But, no matter what it calls itself, it's not a Chicago school, full stop.

[USee]

One note I'll add after watching the Wheaton @NCC game online. There was a decent crowd of Wheaton fans at the game which was surprising given the indications that few would be allowed to attend. And the NCC announcers were appalled when Wheaton celebrated the close game victory at the end. I'm not sure what they were expecting but for some reason they took serious offense to the high fives and animated celebration of the Wheaton team, repeating their disdain over the final minutes of the broadcast and suggesting the NCC players would "remember" this for a long time. Weird. 

[Gregory Sager]

One note I'll add after watching the Wheaton @NCC game online. There was a decent crowd of Wheaton fans at the game which was surprising given the indications that few would be allowed to attend. And the NCC announcers were appalled when Wheaton celebrated the close game victory at the end. I'm not sure what they were expecting but for some reason they took serious offense to the high fives and animated celebration of the Wheaton team, repeating their disdain over the final minutes of the broadcast and suggesting the NCC players would "remember" this for a long time. Weird.

Wow. Now I really feel as though as I missed something by not seeing that game.

Since he was courtside, I'm interested in reading Lucas's perspective regarding the atmosphere at the end of Saturday's game in the hangar.

[WUPHF]

This is not true. St. Xavier is actually in Chicago. To be precise, it's in the Mount Greenwood neighborhood on the Far Southwest Side; Mount Greenwood is one of the 77 officially-recognized Chicago communities used for statistical and planning purposes. SXU has a Chicago street address, and it lies within the city limits. No "technically" qualifier changes that. You don't get closer to Chicago than being in Chicago. The Concordia campus is a little over a mile and a half west of the city limits. It's located in a suburb that doesn't even border the city, unless you count the southwest/northeast diagonal of the four municipalities located at the corner of North and Harlem to be a border -- and that's pretty far away from the Concordia campus as well.

You know what I mean.  Xavs is in Chicago but it may as well be in Beverly or Evergreen Park.  The Chicago zip code adds nothing to the student experience.  It is far more difficult to get the Chicago north side experience as well.

And Oak Park and River Forest may as well be the same suburb for all the reasons that you well know.  They could merge tomorrow without losing anything that makes them unique.  The share a school district after all.