MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[WUPHF]

I agree with Roosevelt as a better fit for Division III or the NAIA for that matter.

It will be interesting to see with Roosevelt and Dee Brown.

Brown, obviously, is one of those names that every last basketball parent who is a lifelong Illinois resident knows (or should know).  I could see him bringing in big time players, though it is not clear from his time at UIC that he can do that.

[WUPHF]

It's been considered a sport for quite some time now, and more and more schools are adding esports programs. The latest example is our alma mater; North Park is going to begin competing in intercollegiate esports in 2023-24.

I can imagine a time when the esports rosters rival football rosters in size. 

Numbers-wise, not strength or weight.

[Next Man Up]

I'm not at all surprised to see Roosevelt leave the NAIA and the CCAC. But I am surprised that the school isn't looking to go D3 instead of D2 and applying for CCIW or NACC membership. It strikes me that D3 is a better fit for Roosevelt, both institutionally and athletically. The only real advantage to D2, as far as I can see, is the possibility of a higher athletic profile...

A. Another factor in going D2, of course, is the chance to dangle some athletic scholarship money in front of student-athletes, even though it would not approach the amounts necessary to draw away D1-caliber athletes.  But do you think Roosevelt would have considered D3, given the greater possibilities of joining a strong local conference?

B. It just seems like a smarter move, institutionally speaking. Whatever benefits accrue from going D2 rather than D3 just don't seem to be apparent in this case. On the other hand, if you were Roosevelt -- a school that has aspired to be a mover-and-shaker in Chicago academia, arts, politics, etc., for decades -- wouldn't you want to join an athletic level in which your regular competition would be the U of C and IIT, the two schools in your city that are where you want to be in terms of institutional profile? What sort of institutional goal could be gained from developing rivalries with lower-tier Michigan public schools such as Ferris State and Saginaw Valley State? Even the one GLIAC school that has a name that carries some weight, Purdue Northwest, is a branch campus that almost exclusively serves commuters and isn't going to be confused with the West Lafayette Boilermaker mothership in anybody's mind.

Frankly, I think it made more sense for Benedictine to go D2 than it does for Roosevelt ... and I thought that Benedictine's brief attempt to switch to D2 was a dumb move.

With regard to point A............
While Roosevelt could "dangle some athletic scholarship money in front of student-athletes," as a D2, they have  also been able to do so as an NAIA member. I doubt the color or allure of D2 money would be any more attractive than NAIA money has been. Secondly, as far as the possibility of D2 money "drawing away" D1 caliber athletes, I would think that possibly would likely be zero. Scholarship money from Roosevelt isn't going to stack up to scholarship money from DePaul, Loyola, or even UIC on a variety of levels, the least of which being why would a D1 athlete even consider Roosevelt over a D1 whether they be either NAIA or D2.
Third, as far as Roosevelt joining a "strong local" D3 conference, how "local" are you thinking? If you have the CCIW in mind, I doubt whether the CCIW would even consider the possibility of accepting Roosevelt. The NACC would seem like a far more attainable target destination.

Regarding point B..............
As far as D3 instead of D2, it just seems like a D3 standing would put them up against so much local competition. At minimum they would be up against all the CCIW, and NACC schools, and even some of the ARC members, especially Loras and Dubuque. Most notably they would be up against North Park. Maybe it's due to my familiarity with NPU, and the CCIW, but just to start I would think NPU's CCIW affiliation would afford them a higher level of visibility right off the bat. Also, my cursory investigation seems to show NPU with a somewhat higher academic ranking. And as far as facilities, while we've long railed against the Crackerbox, it's capacity is twice that of Roosevelt's Goodman Center, its not in a structure that looks like an office building, and it has a much cooler looking floor design. Of course, Roosevelt would face the same obstacle that Greg has long advised us about regarding NPU, namely it's Chicago location which almost automatically eliminates it from consideration in the minds of the overwhelming majority of student-athletes from the Chicago suburban area. Lastly, one distinct advantage that would be provided to Roosevelt by going D2 rather than D3, would be their ability to continue to offer athletic scholarships which, as we all know or should know ( ) often makes a kid think of himself as a success rather than failure as far as his basketball skills/career.

[Next Man Up]

No specifics yet, but look for North Central to be newly attired this season.
One thing that seems likely is that even though the shade of the Cards road unis for the last umteen years hasn't exactly been what can be considered Cardinal red, any new road outfits will most likely continue to be the same shade of "red" we've grow accustomed to.
Something possible is the introduction of a third alternative color uniform. As with any expenditure relative to D3 athletics, cost on top of two other sets of new uniforms will be the primary deciding factor.

[itsnotmeitsyou]

There seems to be a considerable lack of knowledge in this forum about scholarships at the NCAA D2 and NAIA D2 levels (of which Roosevelt U. aspires to join the former while currently a member of the latter).

NAIA D2 programs may offer up to 7 full scholarships (D1 programs are allowed 11).
NCAA D2 programs may offer up to 10 full scholarships (D1 programs are allowed 13).

By percentage, the number of programs (both NCAA and NAIA) that are "fully funded", aka offer the full allotment of scholarships, is relatively low. For context, when Benedictine committed to make the transition to D2 and the GLVC, they were only awarding TWO full scholarships during their first several seasons of competition. Generally, most institutions seem to be in the 50%-75% range of the scholarship allotment.

While I don't know if Roosevelt U. currently offers the full 7 NAIA scholarships, I would bet "all the corn in Manito" that they will NOT be anywhere close to the full D2 allotment. Thus, their net/net impact on the local recruiting scene will be hardly noticeable. There is little to no overlap in the student-athlete profile of CCIW vs. Roosevelt U. prospects.

[Gregory Sager]

I'm not at all surprised to see Roosevelt leave the NAIA and the CCAC. But I am surprised that the school isn't looking to go D3 instead of D2 and applying for CCIW or NACC membership. It strikes me that D3 is a better fit for Roosevelt, both institutionally and athletically. The only real advantage to D2, as far as I can see, is the possibility of a higher athletic profile...

A. Another factor in going D2, of course, is the chance to dangle some athletic scholarship money in front of student-athletes, even though it would not approach the amounts necessary to draw away D1-caliber athletes.  But do you think Roosevelt would have considered D3, given the greater possibilities of joining a strong local conference?

B. It just seems like a smarter move, institutionally speaking. Whatever benefits accrue from going D2 rather than D3 just don't seem to be apparent in this case. On the other hand, if you were Roosevelt -- a school that has aspired to be a mover-and-shaker in Chicago academia, arts, politics, etc., for decades -- wouldn't you want to join an athletic level in which your regular competition would be the U of C and IIT, the two schools in your city that are where you want to be in terms of institutional profile? What sort of institutional goal could be gained from developing rivalries with lower-tier Michigan public schools such as Ferris State and Saginaw Valley State? Even the one GLIAC school that has a name that carries some weight, Purdue Northwest, is a branch campus that almost exclusively serves commuters and isn't going to be confused with the West Lafayette Boilermaker mothership in anybody's mind.

Frankly, I think it made more sense for Benedictine to go D2 than it does for Roosevelt ... and I thought that Benedictine's brief attempt to switch to D2 was a dumb move.

With regard to point A............
While Roosevelt could "dangle some athletic scholarship money in front of student-athletes," as a D2, they have  also been able to do so as an NAIA member. I doubt the color or allure of D2 money would be any more attractive than NAIA money has been. Secondly, as far as the possibility of D2 money "drawing away" D1 caliber athletes, I would think that possibly would likely be zero. Scholarship money from Roosevelt isn't going to stack up to scholarship money from DePaul, Loyola, or even UIC on a variety of levels, the least of which being why would a D1 athlete even consider Roosevelt over a D1 whether they be either NAIA or D2.
Third, as far as Roosevelt joining a "strong local" D3 conference, how "local" are you thinking? If you have the CCIW in mind, I doubt whether the CCIW would even consider the possibility of accepting Roosevelt. The NACC would seem like a far more attainable target destination.

Regarding point B..............
As far as D3 instead of D2, it just seems like a D3 standing would put them up against so much local competition. At minimum they would be up against all the CCIW, and NACC schools, and even some of the ARC members, especially Loras and Dubuque. Most notably they would be up against North Park. Maybe it's due to my familiarity with NPU, and the CCIW, but just to start I would think NPU's CCIW affiliation would afford them a higher level of visibility right off the bat. Also, my cursory investigation seems to show NPU with a somewhat higher academic ranking. And as far as facilities, while we've long railed against the Crackerbox, it's capacity is twice that of Roosevelt's Goodman Center, its not in a structure that looks like an office building, and it has a much cooler looking floor design. Of course, Roosevelt would face the same obstacle that Greg has long advised us about regarding NPU, namely it's Chicago location which almost automatically eliminates it from consideration in the minds of the overwhelming majority of student-athletes from the Chicago suburban area. Lastly, one distinct advantage that would be provided to Roosevelt by going D2 rather than D3, would be their ability to continue to offer athletic scholarships which, as we all know or should know ( ) often makes a kid think of himself as a success rather than failure as far as his basketball skills/career.

I'm enjoying the new wrinkle of the red alphabetic bullet points, Mark.

As to those points, I think that an NCAA D2 scholie definitely holds more allure than does an NAIA scholarship, as D2 is universally recognized as being a higher level of ball. (And, yes, I know that at the very top of NAIA there are teams that can compete with D2s, but for the most part the NAIA is decidedly a step down.) I think that we all agree that Roosevelt is not going to compete with any of the D1s in the city for ballplayers. That's just not gonna happen.

I think that Roosevelt joining the CCIW would be a longshot. The school's house is not in financial order right now (although there are also some CCIW schools that are having a rough go of it, fiscally speaking, at the moment -- or at least that was true back at the beginning of the last school year), and that's something that the CCIW Presidents Council really looks at closely. Roosevelt's not a high-prestige school academically, as you noted, but it is a fairly prominent institution in the city (far more prominent than North Park), with a magnificent performing-arts venue (the Auditorium Building) designed by Louis Sullivan that is a National Historic Landmark (one U.S. president laid its cornerstone, another U.S. president spoke at its opening, and its Auditorium Theater has hosted everything from presidential nominating conventions to rock concerts to film crews shooting movies there to an NFL draft) and one of the most distinctive multi-purpose university structures in the entire country, the 32-story, blue-green, zig-zaggy Wabash Tower. It's the alma mater of Mayor Harold Washington and several prominent actors and musicians. It's both an urban school (Chicago) and a suburban school (Schaumburg). And it sponsors every CCIW sport, including football. It would definitely raise the CCIW's public profile as a member. Still, as I said, I think that being awarded CCIW membership would be a longshot for Roosevelt. I just wouldn't dismiss it out of hand. As you said, NACC membership would be the more likely destination if the Lakers went D3. Roosevelt would be less of a hard sell for suburbanite student-athletes than North Park, because Roosevelt has the Albert Robin Campus in Schaumburg as well as the campus in the South Loop. But the fact that RU has a world-renowned performing arts venue and one of the coolest-looking and most interesting skyscrapers in the city won't count for much as far as drawing basketball players. It wouldn't be the easiest sell in the world if Dee Brown was asked to lead his program into the world of D3. But ... IIT also has all sorts of drawbacks as far as creating and maintaining a viable D3 men's basketball program goes, and the Scarlet Hawks have certainly done creditably since joining the NACC. Roosevelt could do it, too, even with the ridiculously tiny Goodman Center as a home.

The bigger thing to keep in mind as far as affiliation is concerned, the thing that outweighs the nuts and bolts of athletic recruiting, is how university and college presidents, as well as boards of directors, envision their schools and how they'd like them to be viewed by the outside world, which in part means the stature of the other schools with which a president's school is associated. Roosevelt's leadership would have no problem whatsoever being known as Illinois Tech's Green Line rival within the NACC. But Lake Superior State? Grand Valley State? Seriously?

[kiko]

the limited attention local college sports gets in the Windy City is completely hogged by Illinois, Northwestern, DePaul, Loyola, and UIC, in that order.

I'll skip the many cut-and-pastes necessary to rehash the comments around visibility of the basketball programs at DePaul and Loyola, other than to say I don't disagree with anything that was said (and Loyola is definitely viewed as being off the beaten path relative to DePaul, which is a fascinating quirk of how people perceive things since it is literally less than six miles away, and just nine train stops further up the same line.)

The main thing I want to note is that this is not limited to these two schools.  Northwestern has the exact same issue, in both basketball and football, and when the Artist formerly known as Dyche Stadium is full, it generally means it is brimming with fans of whomever the Wildcats are playing that weekend.

The only school that gets any attention in Chicago that doesn't suffer this problem is Illinois, and that's because it isn't in Chicago and isn't competing with a zillion other sporting and cultural endeavors that capture the greater share of people's attention.  It's a college town in the same sense that Iowa City, East Lansing, and Bloomington are.  Chicago is not.

Regarding Roosevelt and fit with the CCIW... the conference's nine members today share a very similar profile on a number of dimensions, and Roosevelt simply feels like a different animal.  If the conference were to go looking for a tenth member and Notre Dame continued to resist its overtures despite the prospect of TWO basketball games behind the cheddar curtain every year, RU would not be the first place I would go looking.

[Gregory Sager]

There seems to be a considerable lack of knowledge in this forum about scholarships at the NCAA D2 and NAIA D2 levels (of which Roosevelt U. aspires to join the former while currently a member of the latter).

NAIA D2 programs may offer up to 7 full scholarships (D1 programs are allowed 11).
NCAA D2 programs may offer up to 10 full scholarships (D1 programs are allowed 13).

There seems to be a considerable lack of knowledge in this post regarding the fact that NAIA D2 ceased to exist two seasons ago.

While I don't know if Roosevelt U. currently offers the full 7 NAIA scholarships, I would bet "all the corn in Manito" that they will NOT be anywhere close to the full D2 allotment. Thus, their net/net impact on the local recruiting scene will be hardly noticeable. There is little to no overlap in the student-athlete profile of CCIW vs. Roosevelt U. prospects.

Given your track record as a poster, Manito farmers should be thinking about planting alternative crops.

[Gregory Sager]

the limited attention local college sports gets in the Windy City is completely hogged by Illinois, Northwestern, DePaul, Loyola, and UIC, in that order.

the Artist formerly known as Dyche Stadium

That one got a chuckle out of me.

Regarding Roosevelt and fit with the CCIW... the conference's nine members today share a very similar profile on a number of dimensions, and Roosevelt simply feels like a different animal.  If the conference were to go looking for a tenth member and Notre Dame continued to resist its overtures despite the prospect of TWO basketball games behind the cheddar curtain every year, RU would not be the first place I would go looking.

I certainly don't think that Roosevelt would be the prime candidate to be the tenth CCIW member, either. We've had this discussion here before, so this isn't the first time I've said this, but I'm pretty sure that if the CCIW presidents really wanted to make it a tidy ten within the circuit, their ideal pick would be Lake Forest. LFC checks off everything on the CCIW Presidents Council's wish list: small-private-liberal-arts-college identity, location well within the league footprint, financial stability, great academic reputation, and a well-rounded athletics department that offers all (or nearly all; the Foresters webpage is down at the moment, so I can't double-check it) of the CCIW's sponsored sports, plus one hoity-toity sport that no current CCIW member offers: fencing. Heck, LFC even used to be in this league before it hied off in the mid-'60s to spend a few years as an indie before joining what is now called the Midwest Conference in 1974.

Somebody pointed out the last time this topic came up that LFC would get trampled in every sport if it re-joined the CCIW. Well, yeah. But that would not really be much of an issue as far as the CCIW's nine presidents are concerned. Let's face it, Carroll hasn't exactly burned up the track since re-joining the league, just as it hadn't been an athletic powerhouse before leaving the CCIW in 1992. What interests the presidents more than competitiveness are a potential new member's institutional profile fit with the other nine CCIW schools, its location, and its financial stability -- as well as the absence of anybody objecting to that school for more school-specific reasons (I'm looking at you, Benedictine).

Of course, the point is moot, since LFC seems to be perfectly happy as a Midwest Conference member ... plus, I haven't heard anything about the CCIW actively seeking a tenth member at the moment. The main thrust of the league's braintrust as of late has been to draw in associate members on a sport-by-sport basis to get to the requisite minimum for automatic bids in the various sports that the league keeps adding.

[mr_b]

Roosevelt is applying to join D2, and the GLIAC has provisionally offered Roosevelt membership.

If Roosevelt does in fact join the D2 ranks, it will be interesting to see how that affects Chicagoland recruiting.

That'll result in a pretty hefty travel budget for conference play, with three members (Lake Superior, Michigan Tech, Northern Michigan) in the U.P. and others (Davenport, Ferris, Grand Valley, Saginaw Valley, Wayne State) a good four- to five-hour bus ride.  Also a pretty competitive conference in a lot of sports, most notably football and hockey.

We'll... NO it won't. UW-Parkisde (Kenosha, WI) and Purdue Univ.-Northwest (Hammond, IN) are current members of the GLIAC. This means that conference members will not have an appreciably longer, larger, or more costly travel commitment to fulfill their conference scheduling commitments.

As an estimate, St. Ambrose (Davenport, IA) and IU South Bend (South Bend, IN) seem to be the CCAC member schools with the greatest geographical separation, about 3 hours, 49 minutes by road.  If Roosevelt joins the GLIAC, the Lakers will need to travel 7 hours, 10 minutes by bus to play Lake Superior State in Sault Ste. Marie.  That's just one road game in the season with other opponents in the schedule.  Figure in home-and-away dates, accommodations, and incidentals, and multiply that by the number of sports RU chooses to sponsor.  That will end up to be a pretty big travel budget for RU and will add to the budgets for its more far-flung GLIAC opponents as well.

[Gregory Sager]

Roosevelt is applying to join D2, and the GLIAC has provisionally offered Roosevelt membership.

If Roosevelt does in fact join the D2 ranks, it will be interesting to see how that affects Chicagoland recruiting.

That'll result in a pretty hefty travel budget for conference play, with three members (Lake Superior, Michigan Tech, Northern Michigan) in the U.P. and others (Davenport, Ferris, Grand Valley, Saginaw Valley, Wayne State) a good four- to five-hour bus ride.  Also a pretty competitive conference in a lot of sports, most notably football and hockey.

We'll... NO it won't. UW-Parkisde (Kenosha, WI) and Purdue Univ.-Northwest (Hammond, IN) are current members of the GLIAC. This means that conference members will not have an appreciably longer, larger, or more costly travel commitment to fulfill their conference scheduling commitments.

As an estimate, St. Ambrose (Davenport, IA) and IU South Bend (South Bend, IN) seem to be the CCAC member schools with the greatest geographical separation, about 3 hours, 49 minutes by road.  If Roosevelt joins the GLIAC, the Lakers will need to travel 7 hours, 10 minutes by bus to play Lake Superior State in Sault Ste. Marie.  That's just one road game in the season with other opponents in the schedule.  Figure in home-and-away dates, accommodations, and incidentals, and multiply that by the number of sports RU chooses to sponsor.  That will end up to be a pretty big travel budget for RU and will add to the budgets for its more far-flung GLIAC opponents as well.

I opened Google Maps and a calculator and worked this out last night. Roosevelt teams spend an average of a little over an hour (64 minutes, to be precise) getting to other CCAC campuses. Upon joining the GLIAC, Roosevelt teams will have to spend an average of almost exactly four hours on the road when playing away contests at GLIAC foes.

Four times the distance on average? That's a gargantuan increase in travel budget expenses for RU.

[mr_b]

Roosevelt is applying to join D2, and the GLIAC has provisionally offered Roosevelt membership.

If Roosevelt does in fact join the D2 ranks, it will be interesting to see how that affects Chicagoland recruiting.

That'll result in a pretty hefty travel budget for conference play, with three members (Lake Superior, Michigan Tech, Northern Michigan) in the U.P. and others (Davenport, Ferris, Grand Valley, Saginaw Valley, Wayne State) a good four- to five-hour bus ride.  Also a pretty competitive conference in a lot of sports, most notably football and hockey.

We'll... NO it won't. UW-Parkisde (Kenosha, WI) and Purdue Univ.-Northwest (Hammond, IN) are current members of the GLIAC. This means that conference members will not have an appreciably longer, larger, or more costly travel commitment to fulfill their conference scheduling commitments.

As an estimate, St. Ambrose (Davenport, IA) and IU South Bend (South Bend, IN) seem to be the CCAC member schools with the greatest geographical separation, about 3 hours, 49 minutes by road.  If Roosevelt joins the GLIAC, the Lakers will need to travel 7 hours, 10 minutes by bus to play Lake Superior State in Sault Ste. Marie.  That's just one road game in the season with other opponents in the schedule.  Figure in home-and-away dates, accommodations, and incidentals, and multiply that by the number of sports RU chooses to sponsor.  That will end up to be a pretty big travel budget for RU and will add to the budgets for its more far-flung GLIAC opponents as well.

I opened Google Maps and a calculator and worked this out last night. Roosevelt teams spend an average of a little over an hour (64 minutes, to be precise) getting to other CCAC campuses. Upon joining the GLIAC, Roosevelt teams will have to spend an average of almost exactly four hours on the road when playing away contests at GLIAC foes.

Four times the distance on average? That's a gargantuan increase in travel budget expenses for RU.

And that's just taking into account the time on the road.  Depending on the sport, teams may leave campus one, two, or even three hours before the scheduled start of the contest, as players need time to suit up and warm up before the game.  A noon start in Marquette, for example, means that the team bus would need to leave campus by 3 AM (if not the night before); a 7 PM tipoff of a midweek basketball game in Big Rapids means the team would leave by, say, noon (if not before) -- and student-athletes would miss a lot of classes, and not be back home until very late.  The same holds true for teams coming from afar to play in Chicagoland.  I hope the RU athletic department has this all gamed out because it will put a lot of stress on budgets, coaches, players, and support staff.  I've done some of those marathon bus trips and they get old pretty fast.

[kiko]

The main thrust of the league's braintrust as of late has been to draw in associate members on a sport-by-sport basis to get to the requisite minimum for automatic bids in the various sports that the league keeps adding.

In many ways, having an odd number of full members, which on the surface may look like a PITA, actually is a better solution for the conference given the number of sports that wobble around the minimum participation threshold for AQs.

[WUPHF]

Selfishly, I hope the membership stays the same because I do not want to see any calls for change in terms of football.

[Next Man Up]

Rather than what is or what might be regarding athletic teams travel times for Roosevelt University, here is a situation specific to the CCIW. IDK how the conference women's coaches feel about it, but I hear the men's coaches are absolutely in head over heels love with this travel policy  .
What I'm referring to is the Conference policy of having the men's and women's teams play a doubleheader when in-conference games fall on Saturdays during the regular season. There is nothing like turning a  100-110 minute men's basketball game into basically a day long excursion. Using NCC as an example, the young women's game at Millikin starts at 2:00, with the guy's game to follow at 4:00. Soooooooo, we'll leave at 9:30. The girls will have their pre-game meals on the bus. We'll drop them off at the Griswold Center at 12:30.Then we'll take the guys to eat, following which we'll drive over to the mall and let them walk around/stretch their legs for 60-75 minutes. About 3:15 we'll head over to Griswold and get there about 3:30. Game starts at 5:00 and should be over at roughly 6:40-6:50. A couple of the guys might want to shower  , so, if we're lucky, we should be hitting the road home about 7:30. Our sleek luxury coach (seriously) should get us home @ approximately 10:30. So, that's possibly a 13 hour trip for an hour and 40 to 50 minute game. Very logical. And, what about Carroll or Carthage @ MU? Seems like a little revisionist thinking on this particular travel policy might be appropriately called for.