MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[David Collinge]

My avatar photo was taken in Redwoods NP.  Small world!

[sac]

I've been to Muir Woods........it is a small world.

[joehakes]

Dennis,

Two things.

1.  I am sure that the manager of any MacDonald's lights up when he/she sees you come in.

2.  If you have less karma points than chins, you can't think that people don't love you.

[diehardfan]

My avatar photo was taken in Redwoods NP.  Small world!

Not THAT small... uh, we both like nature, and live on the West Coast. There's only so many national parks one can go to. I'm guessing the chances that you've been to a lot of the same ones as I have are pretty high.

I don't know, I think I'm just trying to get the "it's a small world" song from getting too stuck in my head, no thanks to you and Scott.  

[David Collinge]

Redwoods is 715 miles from where I live, and almost 900 miles from your town.  It's on the west coast, sure, but it's extremely remote and not too many folks have been there.

Oddly enough, I've never been to Yosemite (or Muir Woods, for that matter), and I haven't been to Sequoia or King's Canyon since I was a tot.  I don't get around nearly as much as you do.  I did camp once in a USFS campground just outside the eastern border of Yosemite; does that count? 

[martin]

Congratulations to Adam and Keelan - I hope they have an excellent adventure in Spain.  Thay will probably need to forget everything they know about team play.  In most foreign hoops league, the job of the American(s) is to score points.  The Reader (3/17/2006) had an interesting article about the experience of Quemont Greer (of DePaul) in the Phillipines.  It is supposed to be in the paid archives but I was still able to get it at:
http://www.chicagoreader.com/pdf/060317/060317_cover.pdf

[diehardfan]

I did camp once in a USFS campground just outside the eastern border of Yosemite; does that count?

No! Going that close to a National Park and not going to it is like... sacrilege. It's worse than if you had never been near it.  This is almost as bad as the fact that Greg has never been to Culvers.  Just kidding, it's worse, a LOT worse. Waaah....  

I'm not sure it's fair to say that you don't get around as much as I do, when I flew to the final four from out here, and you DROVE, via major detours to what, Washington and Forida? Yeah, you don't get around at all 

From what I can tell, Portland is the closest major airport to Redwoods. I know it's not close, but it isn't any further than that day trip I did down to St. Louis to meet you and hopefan.

[martin]

A bit of a followup to my rant on the IHSA.  First, thanks to Greg Sager for his always edifying comments.  I am more upset about the split into four classes for hoops than the multiplier.  I don't know if other sports are as upset with the private schools as the football coaches.  The problem with football is Joliet Catholic, Mt. Carmel and Providence which are 31-6 in championship games - and three of those losses are to each other.  Funny how the coaches do not try to rectify the situation with the Chicago Public Schools.  In the 32 years that there have been football playoffs, exactly one CPS has made it to a championship game - Robeson in 1982.  There have been 196 championship games in the various classes (starting with 5 in 1974, then 6 in 1980 and 8 in 2001).  So there are 392 spots in championship games.  The CPS makes up about 15% of the IHSA.  The random probability probability that they would get exactly one of those 392 spots is effectively zero.  Combine the CPS with the private schools, that combination has not gotten its fair share of championship game spots.

What happens in the IHSA does have an effect on the CCIW.  With the exception of Wheaton, hoops in the CCIW is primarily a continuation of Illinois High School hoops.  The rosters (including Carthage) are filled with Illinois kids.  They already know each other.  They play against and with each other year round.  Their club teams are just as important as thei schools.

CCIW basketball is so strong and competitive because of strength and tradition of Illinois hs hoops.  I don't think the IHSA can screw up hs hoops in this state although it really seems to be trying.  I wonder if they ever heard the expression, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

A reading recommendation.  "Sweet Charlie, Dike, Cazzie, and Bobby Joe" by Taylor Bell.  Subtitle is "High School Basketball in Illinois".  I picked up a copy at the Printer's Row Book Fair (University of Illinois Press) for only $5.  A great book with a lot of fascinating stuff.  There once was an Illinois Colored High School Basketball Championship - for the segregated schools downstate.  Many heard of the great DuSable team in 1954 - the first all black team to go downstate (and get screwed).  It may not have been the best team in Chicago.  There was an all black Catholic school - St. Elizabeth's - that may have been the best ever.  If you get a chance, try to pick up a copy.

[Titan Q]

Martin, last year Art Kimball recommended Taylor Bell's book to me, so I picked it up.  It is outstanding.  Any Illinois high school basketball fan would enjoy it.

My dad played for Pinckneyville in the tournament in 1952 and 1953 when it was all one class.  I grew up around a lot of tournament stories, so I've always had an appreciation for IHSA basketball in general.

I think the move from 1 basketball class to 2 was necessary.  I know that in '53 my dad's team got beat in the semis by LaGrange Lyons -- per the link below, Lyons had an enrollment of 1950 and P'Ville 440.  There is just a playing field that is not level between the "big" schools and the "little" schools.

http://www.marchmadness.org/records/yearly/1953b.htm

I think the move to 4 classes now though is just awful.  As is, the A tournament is always great and the AA is too.  Why mess with it?? 

Being a central Illinois resident - and thus constantly around people complaining about the dreaded Catholic schools in Chicago - and also a Chicago Catholic League high school graduate (Brother Rice), I also have some pretty strong opinions on the new multipier -- in general I think the philosophy behind it is extremely flawed.  Like you though, I am more passionate about the move to 4 basketball classes.  I just can't tell you how stupid I think that is.

[sac]

We've had four classes in Michigan for a number of years.

The biggest class (A) always pairs two good teams together but there are many years you wonder if the class B champion was better or could have beaten the A Champ.

Michigan's a little unique in that we have two peninsula's and its always kind of neat to see the really small schools from the UP have a shot at a State Championship in Classes C and D......mostly D.

The C and D finals give small communities around Michgian great chances to be a part of the State Championship tournament and feel like they have a shot.  The Semi-Final and Final weekend is great with 12 games played over a couple days and Championship day is two sessions at MSU's Breslin Center.

I can't speak for Illinois of course, but I think you'll get used to it and see the value it brings to smaller schools especially.  The big schools will still get their titles, you just won't get to see David v Goliath.


And thanks for the updates on Keelan and Adam, even though I've never met them I think most of us regualars feel like we've known them for awhile thanks to your posts Q.  Good luck to them in Spain.

[martin]

Q - I seem to remember someone posting about the book - probably you.  The only problem with it is that it is hard to read straight through.  I jump around and find another story I like.  It would be good simply as a reference on Illinois HS hoops - but it is much more.  There is a lot of social history of Illinois in the book - i.e. race, the economy, downstate vs Chicago.  It is very well written with a ton of insights.

The chapter on your Dad's Pinckneyville teams is a good example.  Bell reminds us about the coal economy of Illinois.  - "Perry County once produced more coal than any other county in the United States, but it now has the highest unemployment rate of any county in Illinois."  This is much more than a book on high school basketball.

I agree that the split to two classes was a good thing.  One of the opponents to the split was Ron Felling, coach of Lawrenceville.  He admitted he was wrong.  Without the two class system, those great Lawrenceville teams with Jay Shidler and then Marty Simmons may never have become part of the lore of Illinois hs hoops.

Sac - I lived in Michigan for a few years.  The difference between Michigan and Illinois is that Michigan is a football state.  Detrot public schools win state championships.  Illinois is a basketball state.  The MHSAA hoops tournament does not attract anywhere near the interest of the IHSA basketball tournament.  Conversely, the Michigan football championships (which were played at the Pontiac Silverdome - have they moved to Ford Field?)  were huge.

Illinois and Michigan are very different states.  They may appear similar - Midwest, Big Ten, etc.  But Michigan goes north from Detroit while Illinois goes south from Chicago.  Keep in mind that much of Illinois is almost a southern state - or at least a border state like Kentucky or Missouri.

[Pistol Pete]

Martin, thanks for the tip on the Taylor Bell book.   I just ordered it from Amazon.

Maybe it's just the circles I grew up in as a kid, but to me the IHSA state basketball tournament was THE big sports event of the year -- forget the World Series, the Super Bowl, and even the Tour de France.

Cazzie was just before my time, but the memories of the Cobden Appleknockers, Effingham Flaming Hearts, Collinsville Kahoks, Pekin {censored}s, Thornton Wildcats, Evanston Wildkits, Proviso East Pirates, Thornridge Falcons...

When I was in law school, one March night, on the spur of the moment, I walked across the street from the library to the Assembly Hall and bought a ticket to the quarterfinals.  The tournament had gone two-class by then, and it didn't sell out, as it always used to do in prior years.

I saw a game between the pre-tournament favorite, a Westinghouse team led by Mark Aguirre but full of future D-I players, against St. Joseph's of Westchester.  St. Joe's rode the back of a short, skinny, junior named Isaiah Thomas.

To make a wonderful long story short, though Westinghouse controlled for most of the game, Thomas led a furious rally in the fourth quarter that took St. Joe's to the win.  He was able to steal the ball from the Westinghouse guards almost at will down the stretch.  I've never seen one player dominate a game against good competition the way that Thomas did in that one.

I sure hope that IHSA leadership isn't messing up a great tradition, but your message makes it sound as though that's what's happening.

[martin]

Pete - I had to check how much the book cost on Amazon - $14.  Just a helpful hint - the Printers Row Book Fair is a great place to do early Christmas shopping.  As I mentioned, I got the Taylor Bell book for $5.  At the University of Chicago Press, I got the collections of Mike Royko's columns for $5 each.  Best place though is the Art Institute.  You have to get to their booth early for best selection (and they need to get a bigger booth - people were standing 3-4 deep there).  They have a ton of the big coffee table books for $5 to $20.  I bought seven of them.  I have a few months to decide who gets what - Renoir, The Great Book of French Expressionism, etc.

I don't think the IHSA can really screw things up no matter how hard they try.  It is too strong of a product.  I thought moving the championship from the Assembly Hall to Peoria was a mistake but it seems to have turned out well.  The supersectionals at the United Center were a huge success.

To me, the IHSA is just reflecting the wants of its members - careerists in the industry of public education.  It really has nothing to do with the kids.  And that is true for all of public education.  To me, very little in public education has much to do with education or children.  The driving force is careerism.  That is a subject for a huge rant - not for this board.  What is going on with the IHSA is reflective of all the problems with our educational system.

[Pistol Pete]

Martin, thanks for the tip on Printers' Row, but the cost of the commute makes Amazon a lot cheaper for me these days.   

[joehakes]

Splitting into more classes is indicative of our society's desire to produce more "winners."  Since some folks don't think that they can compete with others, they just form another championship.  The current three divisions of the NCAA have schools with different philosophies, not just different sizes.  If there ever is another division it will probably be for those who will admit that they don't want to compete for a national championship.  Note that I am not saying anthing about whether or not they would have a realistic chance to win one, but sometimes the striving is the victory in the whole thing.

However, there are some schools who will admit that they are not in it for the possibility of being in a national tournament.  For them to have their own division would be fine, i believe.