MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Gregory Sager]

At least there is ONE consolation in the soccer 'abomination' - Wheaton has one helluva facility!

That's a consolation? Chuck, does the word consolation mean "rubbing salt into the wound" in Ypsilantese?

[joehakes]

Apparently, Dennis in his elder years, has forgotten that I spent five years as the North Park head men's soccer coach, but convenient memory has always served him well.  I happen to agree that the rule is flawed, but  it probably is to ensure a large crowd for the CCIW coffers which may be needed.  I can't say because I don't know what the discussion was when this rule was put into place.

But to connect that to someone's salvation discredits what salvation is. 

And Greg, I worked hard to keep Dennis' chins out of this discussion!!

[Mr. Ypsi]

Greg,

Sorry about the salt - I hadn't even thought about the 'rich getting richer' implications that that statement had!  

But it sure did strike me as a mighty nice place for a soccer game - for players and fans alike.

[pcarr]

I did a little research into this soccer stuff.  Here's what I've discovered...

I was reminded that a big reason the tournaments were originally placed at the same site was this: When the tournaments were founded, four of the seven schools that had both men's and women's soccer (Elmhurst only had women's) had the same coach for both.  Therefore separate locations would have been a major issue if one coach had both teams reach the finals.  I think only two (Millikin & Augie) have that problem now.  So at the time, the rule was established to help everyone except Wheaton and North Park.  

This setup also would have hurt Wheaton a couple years ago, when IWU's women and Wheaton's men won the regular season crowns.  The Thunder would have played the title game in Bloomington, but the Titan women were upset in the semis, so it reverted to the field of top men's seed, and Wheaton was fortunate once again.  

Maybe it has something to do with being keepers of Christian righteousness.  

[Gregory Sager]

It's not Wheaton's wealth or the quality of their athletic facilities that concern me, Chuck. It's the idea that somehow there's some sort of silver lining to the wrong team hosting the CCIW championship game.

There isn't. I don't care if the regular-season champ plays its home games on a horse paddock. Conference rules or not, the regular-season champ should be hosting the CCIW tournament championship game. Any other consideration is extraneous.

[Gregory Sager]

Again, Paul, maybe I'm missing something here. But if indeed the rationale behind holding the two championships on the same field is dual coaching responsibilities, then the solution seems blindingly obvious: Don't hold the two games at the same time. Or back to back. Hold them on different days, or at least hold one in the morning and one in the late afternoon or evening.

[Jim Matson]

Wow, there is a lot of heat flying around here!

First, let me send a sincere congrats to Titan fans everywhere.  You guys did the CCIW and D3 proud last night!  I'm sure Q was ready to jump out of his seat when the score was tied in the 2nd half.  He was already dreaming of the headlines the next morning...

This soccer thing is no fault of Wheaton's.  Dennis and Greg, you are being a bit hostile in this regard, as if it was some plan hatched by Coach Bean.  Wheaton didn't even want a Tourney.  The point system and the rotating location for the finals were voted on by the entire conference and adopted as a good way to run things.  There is everything good about running the men's and women's finals together: better attendence, better atmosphere, better economics, and as Paul mentioned, easier for the coaches.

I have no idea why anyone would have agreed to the point system,  I'd love to shelve it as it is certainly making things tough for Wheaton this year.

Anyone picking this match would have to admit the odds are in North Park's favor - they have had Wheaton's number for 2 years now.  But since it is so commonplace that North Park soccer is even playing for the championship...I guess some have to complain about something.  How about feeling pumped for a strong (and getting stronger) North Park soccer program that has played very well for 2 seasons, is playing for the CCIW Championship, is playing for the NCAA berth, and is establishing itself as a serious soccer program.  Let's not leave out the fact that some of the best players for North Park soccer are underclassmen.

[Mr. Ypsi]

It's not Wheaton's wealth or the quality of their athletic facilities that concern me, Chuck. It's the idea that somehow there's some sort of silver lining to the wrong team hosting the CCIW championship game.

There isn't. I don't care if the regular-season champ plays its home games on a horse paddock. Conference rules or not, the regular-season champ should be hosting the CCIW tournament championship game. Any other consideration is extraneous.

Greg,

I'll have to take (possible) issue with the 'horse paddock' comment - my son played the next-to-last game of his hs career on a field that was liberally covered with goose droppings.  Every coach in the league had complained about the field (and, according to the ref, SEVEN players had suffered season-ending knee injuries in just the games he had reffed there).

I suggested to the coach that he forget about complaining to the league - complain to the health department!  David did go down once; said it was the most disgusting thing he's ever experienced - needless to say, 'aggressive' soccer took a hit that day!

When I said 'rich getting richer' I was thinking in terms of soccer tradition, but I suppose the facilities WOULD also be tied to 'rich' in the monetary sense!

I'd agree that the rule seems to have out-lived it's original rationale (and, as you say, could have been avoided by non-contiguous games), but having both games back-to-back no doubt DOES have some benefits in terms of crowd support.  Finish first again next year, and you can 'cheat' the Wheaton women; OR get your women's team to ALSO win each year!

WHEATON didn't write the rule (at least not unilaterally)!

[Gregory Sager]

This soccer thing is no fault of Wheaton's.  Dennis and Greg, you are being a bit hostile in this regard, as if it was some plan hatched by Coach Bean.

No, Dennis is being a bit hostile in this regard, as if it was some plan hatched by Coach Bean. With me it's more of a free-floating angst, why-does-Wheaton-get-all-the-breaks, ticked-off-at-the-injustice-of-it-all sort of thing.

I have no idea why anyone would have agreed to the point system,  I'd love to shelve it as it is certainly making things tough for Wheaton this year.

Just as it did for NPU last year. We agree on that, at least.

There is everything good about running the men's and women's finals together: better attendence, better atmosphere, better economics, and as Paul mentioned, easier for the coaches.

Sorry, Jim, no sale. Convenience is not a substitute for justice. This is about what's fair and right, and what's fair and right is for the regular-season champ to host the tournament championship, rather than have to play it on their opponent's field.

Anyone picking this match would have to admit the odds are in North Park's favor - they have had Wheaton's number for 2 years now.  But since it is so commonplace that North Park soccer is even playing for the championship...I guess some have to complain about something.  How about feeling pumped for a strong (and getting stronger) North Park soccer program that has played very well for 2 seasons, is playing for the CCIW Championship, is playing for the NCAA berth, and is establishing itself as a serious soccer program.  Let's not leave out the fact that some of the best players for North Park soccer are underclassmen.

I wouldn't call two years in the championship game "commonplace". And, speaking as an NPU alumnus and fan, this is not something that I take for granted. You can be as cavalier with NPU's chances all you like, but my first thought is for Coach Born and his players and the travesty that this tandem-championships rule has perpetrated upon them. All well and good to talk up North Park's rise through the ranks in CCIW soccer, as if it assuages this travesty somehow. But the point of the matter is that Wheaton has a better shot at winning the game tomorrow because they get to host and North Park doesn't, and that just plain stinks any way that you look at it.

[Stat]

First, let me send a sincere congrats to Titan fans everywhere.  You guys did the CCIW and D3 proud last night!

As the years pass and generations come and go, Greenies will be Greenies.

They lost by 22 points!

However, a great effort!!!

[Gregory Sager]

The "horse paddock" comment was just a figure of speech, Chuck. I haven't seen every soccer field in the conference, but I'm pretty sure that none of them are in such dire condition that they threaten life and limb.

And, again, you seem to be looking for a silver lining in this miscarriage of justice. You're thus forcing me to point out again that nothing justifies North Park having to play a championship game on their rival's field that they ought to be hosting instead.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Greg, Greg, Greg,

Obviously I did not take your 'horse paddock' remark literally - it's just that you gave me an irresistable opportunity to vent without it being off-topic (thanks)!

And I LEAN towards agreeing that NP got shafted, but I also see advantages (for fans AND players) in having the championships together (and it's a sign of progress that they are rotated - within my lifetime, and even yours, if they were together they would ALWAYS be at the men's site).  Besides the earlier mentioned advantages, I believe it is good for CONFERENCE solidarity to celebrate (or mourn) together.

I see nothing in the rule that automatically favors one school over another (and ALL the schools agreed to it).  For ANY rule there will be winners and losers; that's called 'life'.  THIS year, your men lost; next year Wheaton's (or someone else's) women may lose.  If the tournaments are separated, then (rightly or wrongly) a case could be made that EVERYONE loses.

[Gregory Sager]

Obviously I did not take your 'horse paddock' remark literally - it's just that you gave me an irresistable opportunity to vent without it being off-topic (thanks)!

You mean that I got suckered into inadvertently setting up one of your patented digressive Michigan youth sports stories? Augh! I feel so dirty! So used!

And I LEAN towards agreeing that NP got shafted, but I also see advantages (for fans AND players) in having the championships together (and it's a sign of progress that they are rotated - within my lifetime, and even yours, if they were together they would ALWAYS be at the men's site). Besides the earlier mentioned advantages, I believe it is good for CONFERENCE solidarity to celebrate (or mourn) together.

Pah. That "conference solidarity" mutual-celebration-or-mourning thing is just so much goose-produced soccer field fertilizer. The only consideration that's important here is that the team that earned home-field advantage should get home-field advantage. The fact that their opponent is the team that'll be hosting instead, that there won't even be the mitigating circumstance of the game being held at IW or Carthage or some other neutral site, makes it even worse.

The fact that it's a conference rule duly passed by the member schools of the CCIW (and we don't know if it was passed unanimously, I might add, do we?) is beside the point. Nobody's questioning the legitimacy of the rule. The question concerns the fairness of the rule.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Obviously I did not take your 'horse paddock' remark literally - it's just that you gave me an irresistable opportunity to vent without it being off-topic (thanks)!

You mean that I got suckered into inadvertently setting up one of your patented digressive Michigan youth sports stories? Augh! I feel so dirty! So used!

Yup, Greg, thanks for the set-up!  I owe ya one!  But I WAS seriously p***ed off about the health and injury threats of a gooses*** covered field!

And I LEAN towards agreeing that NP got shafted, but I also see advantages (for fans AND players) in having the championships together (and it's a sign of progress that they are rotated - within my lifetime, and even yours, if they were together they would ALWAYS be at the men's site). Besides the earlier mentioned advantages, I believe it is good for CONFERENCE solidarity to celebrate (or mourn) together.

The fact that it's a conference rule duly passed by the member schools of the CCIW (and we don't know if it was passed unanimously, I might add, do we?) is beside the point. Nobody's questioning the legitimacy of the rule. The question concerns the fairness of the rule.

I didn't say it PASSED unanimously, but obviously it was ACCEPTED unanimously (no one quit the conference over it!); I won't argue the fairness of the rule (I tend your direction on that, but I'm just noting that there ARE legitimate arguments the other way as well.  And I DID suggest your potential retaliation for this year's 'affront'!

[Jim Matson]

Actually, my comment about the championship was tongue in cheek.  Point being that North Park doesn't get this far often and (even though I think it will continue) I think North Park folk ought to be celebrating, not complaining.  Again, and as you said Greg, the rule is the rule and fairness aside, nothing can be done about it now.

Wheaton is playing well right now, coming off of 2 convincing victories, so their chances are good against a team that has beat them twice in a row.  But I still argue that North Park has the upper hand.

And for us Wheaton fans, with the basketball season looming, this weekend may be the last chance for a men's conference victory for a long, long time.