MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[usee]

Pat,

great job by jason on the wheaton/nba finals story. I can imagine getting ahold of both those guys for quotes took some time. I had forgotten about the dick helm connection as well. I particularly enjoyed the list of d3 folks in the nba. its great to see all the d3 roots in the nba.

[Mr. Ypsi]

I'll probably live to regret this post, but here goes:

Greg, thanks for the defense.  I always thought that focusing on one or two extra games was kinda weak when IWU in Jack's era was in every other way d3 (afterall, the CCIW was by then entirely, or nearly so, d3).

Pat, relax!  Despite the above, unless I forget, if I ever have reason to mention Jack Sikma again, I promise to simply cite him as IWU or CCIW (it won't be my fault if all but the reguars therefore assume he was d3)!

[Pat Coleman]

Pat,

great job by jason on the wheaton/nba finals story. I can imagine getting ahold of both those guys for quotes took some time. I had forgotten about the dick helm connection as well. I particularly enjoyed the list of d3 folks in the nba. its great to see all the d3 roots in the nba.

I believe that's probably the case. Jason first pitched the story at the beginning of the finals and I didn't get it until about a week ago. Between the Finals and the draft, I expect that they were pretty busy.

[Gregory Sager]

Still wasn't something I could pass up.

I looked at Wheaton's game-by-game results for that year and decided it worked out well enough considering
a) The NCAA was divided into three divisions in 1973
b) Wheaton played under Division III rules in terms of number of games.

You are right that the first men's basketball championship in Division III was not held unitl 1975. However, the auspices of Division III began before the first men's basketball championship was held.

Well, that's your call. The NCAA was indeed reorganized into three divisions in August of 1973, but since it didn't take effect for basketball until the 1974-75 season I wouldn't have interpreted Pfund's status the way that you did -- especially since there were five D3 charter members whose teams played in the last-ever NCAA College Division tournament in the season in question (1973-74), the year prior to the inaugural D3 tourney. Those five teams were Coe, Hiram, Miles, St. Lawrence, and Wittenberg. In addition, five other schools that I'm almost certain were all D3 charter members as well (Chicago, Monmouth, New Jersey City, Ohio Northern, and Potsdam State) also participated in the 1973-74 NCAA College Division tourney, but failed to qualify for that first D3 tournament the following March. Dennis McFalls of Coe was named to the NABC's College Division All-American third team in 1973-74.

What really sells me on the issue of Pfund's status is the case of his and McFalls' contemporary, Jerry Clark of Chicago. In the University of Chicago's record book, the "D3 All-Americans" category spans the period "1974-present". Jerry Clark, who was an All-American on that 1973-74 Maroons team that Joseph Stampf guided to the College Division tourney, is conspicuously listed in the "NCAA College Division All-American" category.

I think it's pretty likely that Wheaton would've participated in the 1973-74 NCAA College Division tourney as well if Pfund & Co. had been good enough to receive an invitation.

[Pat Coleman]

I think it's a good offseason story that Division III people should read and doesn't in any way alter the canon or the continuity of the timeline.

[Gregory Sager]

Greg, thanks for the defense.  I always thought that focusing on one or two extra games was kinda weak when IWU in Jack's era was in every other way d3 (afterall, the CCIW was by then entirely, or nearly so, d3).

On the contrary, the fact that Illinois Wesleyan played some extra games during the Sikma era is a pretty compelling argument against him in terms of considering him a D3 player, Chuck. D3 has always had a strict policy about regular-season length (including in-season exhibition games) that is in sharp contrast to the considerably longer NAIA regular season. In fact, it's one of the key distinctions between the two organizations.

Also, the CCIW wasn't "entirely, or nearly so, D3" during Sikma's playing days. Three of the nine members of the CCIW were NAIA affiliates during the mid-'70s: Carroll, Carthage, and Illinois Wesleyan.

I mentioned your ongoing brave but beleagured tilt at the Sikma windmill   mostly because I think that it's only fair that Pfund be omitted from the D3 rolls for much the same reason -- although the case Pat makes for Pfund does admittedly have more substance than the one that has been made for Sikma (and UWSP's Terry Porter as well). Not that I'm conceding the point to Pat at all ... I just think he makes a better case for Pfund than you do for the big Dutchman from Saint Anne. Sorry. 

[Knightstalker]

Can't we just say that Sikma played for a school that became D3 and that he was one of the best small college players ever and leave it at that?

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Um, I think for the purposes of the story, having both guys with d3 connections is the important thing, not whether or not they were actually d3 players.  You mention to someone that both GM's from the NBA finals went to Wheaton (IL) and half the country goes "where?"  To me, plus the fact that Wheaton has been in d3 for so long makes this whole argument a bit moot.  Then again it is summer and there's not much else to do.

[diehardfan]

I guess that while I was on vacation I missed the memo that the CCIW was skipping November, December, January, and February this coming year so that it could proceed straight into March.

Personally, I'd rather wait and see how the season plays out. Who knows what heretofore unheralded maximum encestadors and maximum anotadors will surprise us all in 2006-07?

lol... Greg we all know you're anti-prognosticating. You never participate in any of the preseason pickems, much to the annoyance of the many people who would like to hear "the guru" weigh in. It doesn't mean Q's not allowed to speculate about the All-CCIW teams, or revise his initial guesses. Or that I'm not allowed to state that obvious fact that Wheaton is going to be up on the front page even more often once the season starts.  8)

Not that I'm conceding the point to Pat at all ... I just think he makes a better case for Pfund than you do for the big Dutchman from Saint Anne. Sorry. 

Yeah, yeah... you're just bitter because it's Wheaton, and no former NPC or NPU basketball player has become the GM of any team in the NBA. 

(begins picturing what Greg's rebuttal will be and giggles mischeviously)

And ditto to my 8:57am PST post on July 7th guys.

[Gregory Sager]

Can't we just say that Sikma played for a school that became D3 and that he was one of the best small college players ever and leave it at that?

What, and take one of the most time-tested and beloved arguments out of the Posting Up repertoire?

Um, I think for the purposes of the story, having both guys with d3 connections is the important thing, not whether or not they were actually d3 players. You mention to someone that both GM's from the NBA finals went to Wheaton (IL) and half the country goes "where?" To me, plus the fact that Wheaton has been in d3 for so long makes this whole argument a bit moot. Then again it is summer and there's not much else to do.

It's not really moot, because Pat specifically referred to both Pfund and Nelson as "D3 alumni", which technically isn't true and is very different from saying that they have "D3 connections". My whole point is that we should be even-handed about this sort of thing, since the same exacting standards regarding alumni status have been applied to Sikma and Porter.

lol... Greg we all know you're anti-prognosticating. You never participate in any of the preseason pickems, much to the annoyance of the many people who would like to hear "the guru" weigh in. It doesn't mean Q's not allowed to speculate about the All-CCIW teams, or revise his initial guesses.

I was mostly just giving Bob a hard time. Considering the way that this summer is going, I have to get in my digs at my White-Sox-fan friends any way that I can. But, on a serious note, I really don't think it's a done deal at all that those five particular guys will constitute the All-CCIW first team. They seem like a logical quintet to pick here in the middle of July, but I anticipate a lot of surprises between now and the beginning of March.

Yeah, yeah... you're just bitter because it's Wheaton, and no former NPC or NPU basketball player has become the GM of any team in the NBA. 

Yeah, I'd be all broken up about that if I cared about NBA general managers. I barely care at all about the NBA as it is (I didn't watch a minute of the NBA Finals). The only GM who concerns me at the moment is the scruffy-looking one with an office in Wrigley Field who can't seem to pull the trigger on dumping Dusty Baker.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Um, I think for the purposes of the story, having both guys with d3 connections is the important thing, not whether or not they were actually d3 players. You mention to someone that both GM's from the NBA finals went to Wheaton (IL) and half the country goes "where?" To me, plus the fact that Wheaton has been in d3 for so long makes this whole argument a bit moot. Then again it is summer and there's not much else to do.

It's not really moot, because Pat specifically referred to both Pfund and Nelson as "D3 alumni", which technically isn't true and is very different from saying that they have "D3 connections". My whole point is that we should be even-handed about this sort of thing, since the same exacting standards regarding alumni status have been applied to Sikma and Porter.

And I mean this in the nicest way, but that's crap.

I'm sorry that logic just doesn't hold up.  Neither (nor Sikma either) were d3 players, but I think for reasons mentioned previously that they can be d3 alums.

[diehardfan]

Considering the way that this summer is going, I have to get in my digs at my White-Sox-fan friends any way that I can. But, on a serious note, I really don't think it's a done deal at all that those five particular guys will constitute the All-CCIW first team. They seem like a logical quintet to pick here in the middle of July, but I anticipate a lot of surprises between now and the beginning of March.

Oh, yeah, no, me either. But you've always been one to avoid speculation, so I just found it funny that you jumped right on that one. Incidentally, you want to help me think of ways to rib my Fever-Pitch-esque Red Soxs fan future brother-in-law while you're at it?  The Orioles are even less to talk about this season... as if this is ever going to surprise me at this point.  It just makes me sad when I talk to him about baseball. 

Yeah, I'd be all broken up about that if I cared about NBA general managers. I barely care at all about the NBA as it is (I didn't watch a minute of the NBA Finals). The only GM who concerns me at the moment is the scruffy-looking one with an office in Wrigley Field who can't seem to pull the trigger on dumping Dusty Baker.

Thank you! That's exactly what I thought you would say, minus the specific analogy, which, given your propensity for obscure facts, are hardly predictable. 

[Jim Matson]

Oh.

[Gregory Sager]

And I mean this in the nicest way, but that's crap.

And I mean this in the nicest way, but your statement that that was crap is ... well, crap. 

I'm sorry that logic just doesn't hold up. Neither (nor Sikma either) were d3 players,

Actually, Donnie Nelson was a D3 player. He was my contemporary back in the early '80s. In fact, I think that he and Hiker Jim were schoolmates at Wheaton. My reference to Nelson in yesterday's post was as a part of the NBA GM duo from Wheaton. Nelson is a D3 alumnus, but Nelson and Pfund collectively aren't "D3 alumni".

but I think for reasons mentioned previously that they can be d3 alums.

Nobody's "mentioned previously" any cogent reason to that effect. We're chest-deep in the Sea of Semantics here, but the implication is pretty strong that when you call someone a "D3 alumnus" it means that they attended a school when it was a member of the division. It's clearly different than saying that someone is "an alumnus of a D3 school" (which Sikma, Porter, and Pfund all are), because in the prima facie reading of that phrase the property in question (D3 status) is not conferred upon the subject (the alumnus). It's simply conferred upon the school. Of course, without a further explanation that the school's affiliation has changed over time, the listener/reader might infer that that D3 status does belong to the subject, so it is still open to being misconstrued; Mike's suggestion in post #6806 that Sikma be referred to as having "played for a school that became D3" prevents such misconceptions, even if it isn't phrased quite as concisely. And it works for Porter and Pfund as well.

(If Pat gets annoyed by all this niggling to the point that he decides to put a moratorium upon front-page stories about the CCIW, you can all blame me.  )

[Pat Coleman]

I'm just happy that after Ypsi hijacked another conversation to nitpick along Sikma lines, he vowed never to talk about Sikma-as-d3-player again. Everything else is secondary to that.