MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[David Collinge]

Here's another tidbit to keep in the backs of your minds as the season gets underway.  Coming into the '05-'06 season, #1 Illinois Wesleyan and #3 Wooster are tied for second among D3 schools in all-time wins.  As Q notes on his site (http://www.iwuhoops.com/), each has 1395 wins (IWU 1395-782, COW 1395-735), trailing only Wittenberg (1507-609).  Wesleyan looks to be the better team (I believe Wooster may be somewhat overranked at #3), but as usual Wooster has the easier schedule.  Those of us who care about such esoterica will enjoy watching this go back and forth this season.

[augiedad]

Catching up on the board since about Sunday...

So there is a suggestion (by True Basketball Fan) that Illinois Wesleyan does not have a ton of good young talent on the roster?  Well, I think I will go with the history of the CCIW on this one and assume they do.

The Vikings got Mike Kolze, as he is an Augie legacy.  I believe he is the best CCIW freshman.  The kid Augie wanted just as bad (maybe even more) however is - as usual - wearing green.  Jordan Morris, a freshman at IWU.  Players Augie recruited that are Titans.

Goach G is a great recruiter, but he is no Scott Trost unfortunately.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Goach G is a great recruiter, but he is no Scott Trost unfortunately.

Or Dennie Bridges or Jack Horenberger - there is a reason why the Titans have as many titles as the next three schools combined!  This is NOT disrespecting other schools or bragging on my own, but we have been VERY FORTUNATE to have GREAT bball coaches who stayed forever, and turned down MANY d1 opportunities.  I wouldn't begrudge Scott if he took the big bucks to go elsewhere, but I sure hope he will take Dennie and Jack as his role-models!

[Gregory Sager]

Vikings fans can witness a serendipitous doubleheader in River Forest on Saturday morning. The NPU men's basketball team will scrimmage Dominican at 9 am, and then the men's soccer team will take on Macalester in the first game of the D3 tournament's Dominican regional at 11 am. It's just a scheduling quirk that it worked out that way. The basketball team is apparently going to hang around after the scrimmage to cheer on their schoolmates. I would imagine that a huge chunk of Parkdom will be on the Dominican campus that day wearing royal blue and gold.

[petemcb]

Greg, isn't North Park's quarterback/center still on campus?  Is he expected to augment the front line at the end of football season.  I seem to remember him being something like 6'6", 220 lbs., and a player who would benefit from the addition of all these 6'5 - 6'7 guys.  Sounds like an intriguing/overdue season for the Vikings.

Any sign of Craig Anderson for the Warhawks?

I like that Saturday doubleheader.  Are you going to be at both ends of it?

[True Basketball Fan]

Augiedad,

Mike Kolze will have a much better career than Morris will at IWU.  Morris is one of the over-hyped all-staters that IWU has (no offense to Morris, he is a good player and most likely a great kid).  Augie most definitely got the better player, you'll see that over the next two years.

Also, don't be quick to give Trost all the credit.  Trost couldn't get some these good players if he was at Millikin, North Central, or Elmhurst (Trost was barely .500 at Elmhurst in the early 90's).  Judging one's recruiting ability cannot be based solely on what they bring in.  It has more to do with the whole package of where one is at (great tradition, top notch facility, outstanding boosters and fan support, good location, and so on).  Not to take anything away from Trost, as he has done a good job, but if Coach G was at Wesleyan, I'm sure he would be bringing in the same or better talent, as would Scherer or Harris.

[augiedad]

TBF:

Don't get me wrong, I think Mike Kolze is going to be a CCIW superstar.  I am thrilled we have him.  My comment regarding Jordan Morris was basically over what I heard from the Augustana staff.  That losing Morris to IWU really stung.

Mike Kolze (Augie fresh.) and Jordan Morris (fresh.) are the only two players from the 2005 IBCA 1st, 2nd, and 3rd teams all-state on a Division 3 roster.  In fact of the 41 total players in that group, 39 are either on a D1 roster now, at a JUCO on the way to a D1, or still in H.S. but expected to sign with a D1 (like Brian Carlwell of Proviso East to Illini).

http://www.ibca-il.org/Boys%20Class%20AA%20All-State%20Team.htm

I have the last 16 IBCA all-star programs.  In the last 10 years, here is the complete list of IBCA Class AA all-staters on the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd teams who ended up in the CCIW:

1) Keelan Amelianovich, IWU '06 (2002, 2nd Team) - CCIW MOP, D3 All-American

(That is it.)

The following D3HOOPS.com All-Americans (who played at Class AA schools) were not on teams 1-3:

Jason Wiertel (Carthage), Antoine McDaniel (Carthage), Drew Carstens (Augustana), Adam Dauksas (IWU)   

All of these players were "Honorable Mention"

Do I think Jordan Morris is going to be a CCIW M.O.P. just because he was 3rd Team all-state in Class AA?  No.  Do I think you are way off base in calling him "over-hyped" at this stage?  Yes.

[augiedad]

"Trost couldn't get some these good players if he was at Millikin, North Central, or Elmhurst..."


So how did Dan McCarrell ever build a program at North Park with those facilities, back before NPU had any tradition to fall back on?

And how did Lori Kerans build a CCIW/national power at Millikin?

How has John Thorne built a national contender in football at North Central? (Just because of the great stadium?)

How has the North Park soccer coach built a champion?


Great recruiters can recruit to just about anywhere.  I have found the best recruiters are a) honest, and b) passionate.  They get kids to believe in them, their system, and their program.  Does the Shirc Center, IWU's amazing fan base, and Titan hoops tradition help?  Absolutely.  But I'd be willing to bet Scott Trost would be a successful recruiter anywhere.

Trost record at Elmhurst per IWU.edu:

1992-93 10-15, 3-11 (8th)
1993-94 13-12, 6-8 (6)
1994-95 12-13, 6-8 (T4)
1995-96 16-9, 10-4 (3)

From 8th to 6th to 4th to 3rd.  Which direction was Elmhurst heading before Trost went to Michigan?  To go 10-4 in the CCIW in 1996 (the year IWU went to the Final Four with a 12-2 league record and Wheaton won it at 13-1), Trost must have recruited some awfully good players to Elmhurst, right?  Didn't he recruit 1st Teamer Kent Jones??

You seem to be so anti-Weenie TBF - which is fine - that you make points that have no real substance.

[Pat Coleman]

"Trost couldn't get some these good players if he was at Millikin, North Central, or Elmhurst..."

So how did Dan McCarrell ever build a program at North Park with those facilities, back before NPU had any tradition to fall back on?

I cannot debate your other points but I might mention that in the late '70s the facilities gap was not as wide. I am sure that there was somewhat of a gap, Sager will correct me if I'm off, but there was no Shirk to compete against, no King Arena, no DeVos Fieldhouse, etc.

[joehakes]

Pat,

I don't want to be mistaken for Greg Sager and since I weigh about 2.5 times what he does there may be no chance at that.  However, I believe that North Park had a significant facilities gap at that time, and the fact that they are in the city also made it tough to attract some athletes and students. 

Has that gap gotten worse?  Most definitely.  But I got to North Park in 1981 and the facility was an issue then.  McCarrell (along with Bosko Djurkovic) did a great job of attracting some city kids along with some Covenant church kids and some suburban kids that were able to cope with the city.  The crackerbox was a great intimidation factor and if someone came to a game there they couldn't help but be caught up in the atmosphere. 

But the amenities were still lacking and there was no "wow" factor when you came into the facility until they put the five NCAA banners up at the end of the floor.  That made you go, "Wow" when you saw those.

Facilities have gotten to be more of an issue for sure, but McCarrell and Bosko had to overcome them at that time as well.

[Titan Q]

I think is is safe to say that Dan McCarrell would have landed Mike Thomas, Mike Harper, Modzel Greer, etc at North Park even had there been a King Arena in Wheaton, or a Shirk Center in Bloomington, or a Devos Fieldhouse in Holland, Michigan (or a great small college facility in the vicinity) back in the mid/late'70s.

[Titan Q]

I think high school athletes selecting between Division 3 colleges consider some combination of the following factors...

1. Academic fit of school
2. Location
3. Head coach
4. Home game atmosphere/fan support
5. Their fit on the team (playing time, etc)
6. Program tradition
7. Facilities

Below is a list of 10 great Division III men's basketball programs.  This isn't meant to be my interpretation of the 10 best in the country, but rather 10 I came up with right off the top of my head (although looking at the list, it is probably pretty close to the 10 best programs in the country)....

Illinois Wesleyan
Wooster
Wittenberg
Calvin
Hope
Randolph-Macon
UW-Oshkosh
Gustavus Adolphus
Williams
Hanover

I'd argue that while not many of these have facilities significantly better than their primary recruiting competition, they all have positive checkmarks in most of the 7 categories - they have a great total package to sell you could say.  

[Gregory Sager]

Greg, isn't North Park's quarterback/center still on campus?  Is he expected to augment the front line at the end of football season.  I seem to remember him being something like 6'6", 220 lbs., and a player who would benefit from the addition of all these 6'5 - 6'7 guys.  Sounds like an intriguing/overdue season for the Vikings.

Any sign of Craig Anderson for the Warhawks?

I like that Saturday doubleheader.  Are you going to be at both ends of it?

1. Yes, Mike Haehn is still playing QB for the hapless Vikings football team. He'll be joining the basketball team immediately upon the conclusion of the NPU football season this coming Saturday. I think he'll add some needed experience to the depth chart at the two big-man spots, but now that the Park has some freshman bigs with genuine promise such as Jeremiah Sargent and Glen Woodside I expect Haehn's role to diminish.

2. Craig Anderson was indeed present at yesterday's scrimmage. He came off the bench for the Warhawks and scored a trey and had a nice assist in about five minutes of work during the two primary halves. He then started with the rest of the UWW second-stringers in the half that they played against the NPU JV. I wasn't bowled over by him. He has obvious skills and talent, but -- and this is just my observation gleaned from one meager scrimmage, mind you -- he didn't seem to play with a lot of energy, and he certainly didn't have much impact while he was on the floor. I dunno, maybe Voice and Oldpa and Badger Warhawk and the rest of the UWW contingent on Posting Up feel differently about him.

3. Yeah, I'll be at Dominican for both ends of that ad hoc doubleheader.

[Gregory Sager]

Pat,

I don't want to be mistaken for Greg Sager and since I weigh about 2.5 times what he does there may be no chance at that.  However, I believe that North Park had a significant facilities gap at that time, and the fact that they are in the city also made it tough to attract some athletes and students. 

Has that gap gotten worse?  Most definitely.  But I got to North Park in 1981 and the facility was an issue then.  McCarrell (along with Bosko Djurkovic) did a great job of attracting some city kids along with some Covenant church kids and some suburban kids that were able to cope with the city.  The crackerbox was a great intimidation factor and if someone came to a game there they couldn't help but be caught up in the atmosphere. 

But the amenities were still lacking and there was no "wow" factor when you came into the facility until they put the five NCAA banners up at the end of the floor.  That made you go, "Wow" when you saw those.

Facilities have gotten to be more of an issue for sure, but McCarrell and Bosko had to overcome them at that time as well.

Joe and Dennis are right. The facilities gap was not as bad then as it is now, but it was still present during NPU's golden age of basketball. And Joe's point about the school's location is also trenchant. Some suburban-raised kids are drawn to North Park because of the urban location (yours truly, for example), but an awful lot of suburban kids won't even consider going to school in the big, bad city. F'rinstance, I've been told by more than one insider that NPU's urban setting played a role in Jonathan Steven choosing Wheaton over the Park when both schools were recruiting him.

I think is is safe to say that Dan McCarrell would have landed Mike Thomas, Mike Harper, Modzel Greer, etc at North Park even had there been a King Arena in Wheaton, or a Shirk Center in Bloomington, or a Devos Fieldhouse in Holland, Michigan (or a great small college facility in the vicinity) back in the mid/late'70s.

Bob is absolutely right. None of the three superstars from North Park's national championship threepeat teams was a high-school stud who drew a lot of recruiting attention, from D3 rivals or from anybody else for that matter. Harper was a skinny 6'4" kid with thick glasses from Quigley Seminary Prep, a South Side Catholic school that was a lot better known for churning out future priests than blue-chip basketball players. Greer was a 6'5" center from a lowly Blue Division team in the Chicago Public League, Harlan. Michael Thomas played at a powerhouse Illinois high school program, Proviso East, but he had to share the ball there with a couple of future D1 scholarship players.

I don't know if McCarrell actually anticipated Harper growing five inches during his freshman year. But he certainly saw a potentially great player in that unlikely package. He looked at Greer and saw someone with the skills and athleticism to play on the perimeter in college rather than on the inside. And he saw in Thomas a player with potential greatness of his own who had the added benefit of having learned unselfishness and ego-free basketball at Proviso East.

North Park didn't get those players because there weren't any D3 rivals around who had better gyms with which to entice the three of them. North Park got them because Dan McCarrell was the quintessence of what a D3 coach ought to be on the recruiting trail: A visionary who can look at unheralded raw material and see a diamond in the rough.

[Pat Coleman]

Pat - when North Park won its five national titles in ten years every gym in the CCIW was better - except maybe North Central and Carroll.

Yes. But I expect that now they are even more better than North Park's, no?

The facilities gap was not as bad then as it is now, but it was still present during NPU's golden age of basketball.

This is what I was getting at, thanks.