MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[joehakes]

Wow, I got agreements out of Dennis and Greg on the same day on the same subject.  I ought to jump to Hall of Famer just on that alone.   

Sort of like Karl Rove and Howard Dean going out for pizza together.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Joe,

That IS mighty impressive.

But I'm worried about Dennis's mental health - to agree with both you and Greg within 24 hours?  Perhaps his 'grey matter' is descending into his chins? 

[joehakes]

Well, there will be plenty of room for it there.

[True Basketball Fan]

Great points, augiedad.

It's fantastic to get the b-ball discussions back in full force.

We'll continue this conversation when the kids get a chance to show what they can do.....and that's a long ways off.  

Also, don't be misled by my statement about Trost's ability to recruit.  He has brought in good players, obviously.  My underlying point is that I believe the IWU experience is greater than any one person.  To me, it is on the same level as North Carolina, Duke, Kentucky, or Kansas.  Great players go to those schools, because that's what they always do, no matter who is coaching there.  The coaches I mentioned in an earlier post are all proven high quality coaches.  They would all be very successful at IWU.

[True Basketball Fan]

On another tangent.......

You're probably right, I am a little tough on Trost.  If any of you saw the weenie-like antics he pulled at Elmhurst last year, you might feel the same as I do.  Sitting across the gym I heard and saw him clearly drop several f-bombs in Coach Scherer's direction, but he only did it after Scherer had turned his back.  I've also heard him clearly call officials words I can't repeat from all the way across the court.  In both cases, he has a tendency to bark at a distance, and we all know about things that only bark from a distance.  I had to explain to my 7 year old that night about how that behavior was not appropriate on the basketball court.  I guess he's helping me show my son ways not to act in public, especially when everybody is watching.  And in Trost's case, everybody includes the young kids, like my own. 

[Mr. Ypsi]

TBF,

I admit I have only attended one game during the Trost era, but I certainly didn't see anything like you are reporting.  While 'intense', 'f-bombs' don't strike me as his style. 

But I agree that Dennie Bridges established such a tradition of success that there are probably several coaches in the CCIW who would have had the same (or nearly the same) success - the current coaches at Wheaton, Augie, and Carthage spring immediately to mind.  This is NOT to say that they are as good (or better) than Trost, just that PROGRAMS tend to sustain for a while, and the impact of a COACH may not be felt for a long time (notwithstanding Notre Dame's collapse and re-birth).

Do I THINK Trost is an outstanding coach - yes.  Would I feel confident in trying to PROVE it - not yet.  And I hope like hell that he will stay another 20+ years just to ram the 'proof' down my throat! 

[Titan Q]

For any Titans looking for some Illini score comparison...

Illinois defeated D2 Quincy tonight 78-52...IWU lost 82-60.

http://fightingillini.collegesports.com/sports/m-baskbl/stats/110905aaa.html

Halftime deficits: IWU 6 pts, Quincy 9 pts

Score at 13:00 to play: IWU -1, Quincy -19


What does this mean?  Not much...but it's fun.  Need the Illini to beat a Big Ten team by 22+ this season.

[devildog29]

Q, as you say, comparing the numbers doesn't mean much, because they don't tell you the flow of the game, the competitiveness, etc.  So, beating a Big Ten team by 22+ is, like you said, not really comparable.  That being said, I think it does show that the Titans could certainly give a game to anyone in the lower half of the Big Ten.  If they played the bottom 2 teams from the Big Ten ten times, they may only win 1 or 2 of those games, if they win any at all, but they would definitely give them a run that's for sure.  Furthermore, I think if this years Titan team played in the Missouri Valley, I truly believe they would not finish in last place in that conference.  I'm not saying they'd be above .500 in the conference, the MVC has some great teams, but I do think they could win a few games.  Is that too far fetched?

[The Roop]

That's another problem with exhibition games. It seems there's a 30-35 minute window when the game is competetive. Then the D1 decides to get serious and it's game over. Personally I think the best D3 would have a hard time being competitive (night in and night out) in the worst D1 conference.

The only difference between a regular season D1 vs. D3 game and an exhibition D1 vs. D3 game is the moment when the game is out of hand. Regular season it's the first 10 minutes, exhibition it's the last 10 minutes.

It's nice that some D3s get a check by playing the exhibitions, but I don't think it's right that it counts against the 25 game limit. I think it would be in everyones best interest if the NCAA would simply allow schools to advertise scrimmages. Then these D1/D3 games could take place all the time and the D3s could still get a check without giving up a valuable "in region game" for the regular season.

[John Gleich]

Roop,

Why does the game that teams give up have to be an in-region game?  I'm pretty sure that just about everyone in the country plays at least one NAIA team every year (or much more than one if your school is in Nebraska or Michigan).  For many teams, this game would be just as lobsided, or more, than the D3 vs. D1 exhibition.  I can't speak for IWU (I don't know if their schedule had a full 25 games, and they had to give one up to play the Illini) but I do know that when UWSP played Marquette last year, they DID have a full slate... the exhibition was scheduled in the summer, after the Pointer's sched had already been set.  They gave up a game against Northland College.  The season before, SP had beaten Northland 67-37 in the first game of the year.  The only other time the teams had played in the past few years was in 96/97, and Point won that one 85-46.

Now, SP may not be the best team to guage this on (after all, they haven't lose a regular season non-conference game since a game in '99-'00) but they've had wins of 86-54, 67-37, 80-66, 96-60, 67-52, 66-56, 75-50, 109-44, 90-58, 92-28, 77-61, and 87-61 in the last  4 seasons.  That's 12 games in the last 4 years... So they've played an average of 3 NAIA teams per year, and only a couple of these games were at all competitive (we're talking competitive in the first 10 minutes for most, if the opponent was lucky).

Now, I heard someone say something about a D3 team not being able to play their system, not being able to play their normal rotation... but in a game that ends up 92-28, I can tell you that the starters got less minutes than the guys on the end of the bench.  You can try and run your system against a team that you're going to beat 109-44... but it will work SO WELL that, if you try and play that fast against good competition, you will probably lose by that margin.

I'm saying that, for at least group of select teams, the D1 vs. D3 exhibition is good, from a basketball standpoint, for the D3 team.  BETTER, in fact, than if they had played their 25 allowed "counted" game.

That's my 2 cents.

[The Roop]

PS

You don't have to give up an "in region" game to play a D1 exhibition, but you do lose a game that could have been an "in region" contest. Makes a big difference come Pool C time.

[The Roop]

I still like my "advertised scrimages" idea. It's the best of both worlds.

[John Gleich]

True, in a perfect world, it could have been an in-region game... but, going back to Stevens Point (I'm sorry, I can really only speak of what I know), they've had troubles filling out their schedules, even with NAIA teams.  This year they've got Cardinal Stritch and Viterbo.  Northland now, I believe, is D3, so they "lose" that NAIA game... but there's no guarantee that their opponents in the Clarke tournament will be D3 opponents.  Clarke's website doesn't even list the possible opponents...

[Gregory Sager]

But I agree that Dennie Bridges established such a tradition of success that there are probably several coaches in the CCIW who would have had the same (or nearly the same) success - the current coaches at Wheaton, Augie, and Carthage spring immediately to mind.  This is NOT to say that they are as good (or better) than Trost, just that PROGRAMS tend to sustain for a while, and the impact of a COACH may not be felt for a long time (notwithstanding Notre Dame's collapse and re-birth).

C'mon, Chuck, rein it in a little. The current coach at Carthage owns five national championship rings. He's taken teams to the Final Four three times as the man in charge (at two different schools, no less), and in two of those Final Four trips he was able to climb the stepladder and snip the last piece of twine off the rim.

Bosko Djurickovic wouldn't need to ride Dennis Bridges' coattails in order to be successful at Illinois Wesleyan or anywhere else, just as he didn't need to ride Dan McCarrell's coattails when he succeeded "the Chief" at North Park in 1985. Heck, he didn't ride anybody's coattails at Carthage -- that program had been a total shipwreck for eons before he got there. In the sixteen years prior to his arrival Carthage had had one winning overall season and zero winning CCIW seasons, going 142-266 (.348) overall and 61-187 (.246) in the CCIW and finishing in last place eight of those sixteen seasons. In his fourth year at the helm Carthage won their first CCIW title in 37 years, and in his sixth year he took them to the Final Four.

Nor, for that matter, does he need to apologize for his career as measured against Scott Trost's. The only coach with a c.v. approaching his within the D3 ranks in terms of wins, winning percentage, and national success is Glenn Robinson at F&M, along with perhaps Dick Reynolds of Otterbein, Mike Neer of Rochester, and Glenn Van Wieren of Hope, with Tom Murphy at SUNYIT getting a pass because his great Hamilton teams of the eighties weren't allowed to compete in the NCAA tourney. And I don't know if any of those other guys ever had to build a program from scratch the way that Djurickovic did at Carthage (although Murphy is doing so now at SUNYIT).

Bill Harris is no coattail-rider, either. Wheaton had been a mediocre program at best (and often wasn't even mediocre) for two decades when he arrived on the scene in the early nineties. His predecessors were Dick Helm (1975-83), who went 90-112 (.446) overall and 52-76 (.406) in the CCIW, and Bill Harbeck (1983-91), who went 86-119 (.420) overall and 46-82 (.359) in the CCIW. Wheaton basketball has certainly had a lot more success under the tutelage of Harris than it has at any point since that school's glory days under Lee Pfund back in the late fifties. The only two CCIW titles, and the only four NCAA tourney appearances, that the school has achieved since Eisenhower was in the White House have been under Harris.

Look, I have a ton of respect for Scott Trost and what he has been able to accomplish during his brief tenure at Illinois Wesleyan. And the same certainly holds true for everything Bridges accomplished during his four decades running the Titans program. But ease up on the hyperbole a little when it comes to throwing Djurickovic, Harris, and Giovanine into your comparisons. I understand the point that you're trying to make, but it reads as though you're being a little condescending towards those three coaches, even though I doubt that that was your actual intent.

[Gregory Sager]

A "white buffalo calf" -style omen for Titans fans?

http://www.local6.com/news/5290491/detail.html