MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Titan Q]

Congrats to Adam Dauksas, Keelan Amelianovich, and Chris Martin for making the D3hoops.com preseason All-American team.

(Congrats to Andrew Freeman as well, who is pictured on the frontpage as Keelan Amelianovich...this can only be some sort of good omen for Andrew.)

http://www.d3hoops.com/

[Titan Q]

"Personally I think the best D3 would have a hard time being competitive (night in and night out) in the worst D1 conference."

Roop, I don't think you are very familiar with the level of play in some of the worst D1 conferences then if you think last year's Stevens Point team or this year's IWU, UW-Oshkosh, etc couldn't compete.  Heck, the Ohio Valley Conference (which is not even close to the worst D1 conference) was won by Eastern Illinois in 2001.  The CCIW's 2nd place finisher (and D3 Elite Eight) played EIU in a real game that season...

Eastern Illinois 72
Carthage 71

http://www.carthage.edu/athletics/mens/basketball/eiu.htm

Theo Powell missed a wide open layup at the buzzer to win the game...I was there.

How would CCIW champion Elmhurst (D3 Sweet 16) have faired in the OVC that year?  Or 3rd place (D3 Final Four) Illinois Wesleyan? "Competitive"?  Yes.

The best Division 3 team would be more than competitive in D1 leagues like the Mid-Eastern Conference, the Patriot League, the Big South, and the Trans America Conference.  Illinois Wesleyan is in recruiting battles every year it seems with the Patriot League and Ivy League, and has come out on top quite a bit.  All-American Adam Dauksas was recruited by Colgate and I know Keelan Amelianovich could start for just about any team in that league...

http://www.iwuhoops.com/recruiting2002a.html#dauksas

[True Basketball Fan]

Saw the Pre-Season All-American Teams.......

Congrats to the three studs of the CCIW.

I noticed Andy Phillips is 1st Team again (I believe he was 1st last year also).  Great early matchup with Martin and Phillips going head to head, both recovering from knee injuries in the last year, I might add.

They put Zach Freeman's picture on the site, mainly because they couldn't ethically put a THIRD IWU player on the Pre-Season All-American Teams.  Decent consolation, I guess.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Good points Q.  I totally agree. I think Williams could have won the Patriot league a few years back.  There are quite a few d1 conferences that routinely scrub the bottom of the barrel.  What I'm seeing more and more are these teams taking a chance on some really atheltic, but abhorently undisciplined players.  A disciplined, experienced d3 team definately has the advantage over many of these programs.  The only problem is, these players come to top d3 programs for a reason, if they were to join a lower d1 conference, these players would stop coming, thus making the argument moot.  It's another reason I like to see the top teams in d3 scheduling this big-time exhibitions.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Greg,

You're correct that my intent was not to sound condescending towards the other coaches (my apologies if it came across that way).  I was worried about a different impression - that it would sound like I was 'trashing' Trost as just riding Dennie's coattails!  Neither impression was my intent, but in trying to avoid one, I guess I raised a different one!

Bosko's record obviously speaks for itself, and is hardly likely to be diminished by anything I could say!  And, as I've stated several times in here as the scope of Wheaton's player losses climbed, no matter WHO he was to lose, I'll NEVER pick a Bill Harris team to finish last.

[emeritusprof]

We've been given a dose of revisionist history on the Redmen - Red Man tweak.  Let's not continue that by distorting Carthage hoops history.

There was basketball at Carthage before Bosko, and there were people watching at the time, as well.  Unfortunately, no bean counters posted game attendance figures, because no one really cared -- few folks paid admission and even if admission was to have been "paid," there were so many avenues in and out that no one could police it.

In the Kenosha campus years, two coaches should not be forgotten -- Larry Hamilton and Jon Swift.  As a matter of fact, a Swift coached team held the record for most wins in a season until that one was broken by Bosko.

Carthage basketball under Bosko has been superb.  But, let's not forget that there were some bright spots before Bosko's time.

[Flying Dutch Fan]

prof - one minor correction - Phillips injury last year was a broken finger that required surgery and pins.  The Hope player you are thinking of with the knee injury is point guard Greg Immink - who is back as a 5th year senior after a medical red-shirt last year.

[Mr. Ypsi]

I've posted this on the women's board, but since this board gets about 50 times the action....

I see in the Ann Arbor News today that Emily Hanley of Bloomington has signed with Eastern Michigan, but the details were pretty skimpy (6'1" PF, 15ppg and 9rpg and conference POY as a junior).  Can anyone fill me in a bit more?

Also, out of curiosity, anyone know if IWU recruited her (or was she obviously solid d1 from the get-go)?  As noted above, IWU can (and has) beat out the dregs of d1 for a recruit, but unless you go all the way back to Jack Sikma (where the top d1 interest was insultingly late in coming), I'm not sure we've competed (at least not sucessfully) against mid-major or above - have we?

[augiedad]

Been wondering what has been happening up in Kenosha as far as recruiting goes.  Since the 1998, 1999, and 2000 "recruiting seasons" which produced All CCIW players Jason Wiertel (2002), Antoine McDaniel (2003), Rob Garnes (2003), and Theo Powell (2004), the only 4 year Carthage all-conference player has been 3rd teamer Pat Kalamatas (2005) I think.   

Bosko has been going heavy into the transfers - Menard, Keena Johnson, K Jeffery, Schlemm.  We could debate that strategy all day long here (I personally think the heavy transfer base will blow up on a coach 9 times out of 10), but my question is: Bosko is good enough to get "homegrown" guys at Carthage, isn't he?  Isn't that the formula that led to his Carthage CCIW titles in 2000, 2002, and 2003?  The history of this league has shown that while a key transfer sprinkled in here and there helps, homegrown players win the CCIW.  What happened during Carthage recruiting seasons 2001, 2002, and 2003?  You would have thought Bosko was poised to leverage all of that success (#1 rankings, Final Four trip, etc).  It seems like junior Mike Hart will be a good player, but is that all they got out of that stretch?

Just looking at the "homegrown" all-conference guys in that same span,  IWU brought in Adam Dauksas, Keelan Amelianovich, and Zach Freeman -- Augie got Harrigan and McAdams-Thorton -- Elmhurst landed Chris Martin and Nick Michael, and North Central got Anthony Simmons.

Anyone know what is happening with Bosko's recruiting?

[robberki]

Bah! Transfers are nothing but trouble, coaches that rely on them are asking for trouble.

[The Roop]

Q,

I only wish there was a way you could prove that you're right. Unfortunately all we have are "what ifs" to go on. The Lesser D1s simply know better than to schedule top D3s. A win for them wouldn't prove anything and a loss would prove way too much.

I lived in OVC country for a while so I'm not completely unfamiliar with the lesser D1 Conferences. One of the local sports talk guys, who also called the Georgetown College games, claimed that Georgetown would win the OVC. I had to call in and say "No, they probably wouldn't".  The team they had that year (NAIA D1 Champs) certainly would have won some games though, so it's a matter of how "competitive" is being defined.

[Gregory Sager]

Y'know, Chuck, it did cross my mind that you were being hard on Trost as well as on the other three current CCIW coaches. And I'd say that Trost deserves some plaudits for accomplishing certain things on his own. Perhaps there are Titans fans who would disagree with me, but I don't think that you can attribute recruiting Amelianovich, Dauksas, etc., and winning two outright conference titles and sharing another in three years to a simple matter of post-Bridges momentum. I think that you have to give Scott Trost due credit for his accomplishments over the past four years.

Which kinda makes me wonder if you should change your posting motto to, "Codger first, Titan second"? 

We've been given a dose of revisionist history on the Redmen - Red Man tweak. Let's not continue that by distorting Carthage hoops history.

There was basketball at Carthage before Bosko, and there were people watching at the time, as well. Unfortunately, no bean counters posted game attendance figures, because no one really cared -- few folks paid admission and even if admission was to have been "paid," there were so many avenues in and out that no one could police it.

In the Kenosha campus years, two coaches should not be forgotten -- Larry Hamilton and Jon Swift. As a matter of fact, a Swift coached team held the record for most wins in a season until that one was broken by Bosko.

Carthage basketball under Bosko has been superb. But, let's not forget that there were some bright spots before Bosko's time.

Dennis and I have already trodden over the ground about how we never saw anybody haunting the Carthage gym in the old days. But let's set that aside for a moment. Let's talk black-and-white facts about Carthage basketball, pre-Bosko. I've already gone over how bad the situation was in the sixteen years before he showed up in Kenosha. But let's humor Clayton and look at the overall records.

Larry Hamilton, who won Carthage's only non-Bosko CCIW title (they shared it with Wesleyan in '64) had an overall record of 132-128 (.508) over a stretch of eleven seasons (1961-69, 1983-85) as the Carthage basketball headmaster. But in his ten seasons as Carthage coach when the Red Men ( ) were a CCIW team, they only finished in the top three on three occasions. His overall record as a CCIW coach was 70-72 (.493). Are you really sure that you want to compare him to Bosko, Clayton?

And Jon Swift? He, too, helmed the Punic warriors from Kenosha for eleven campaigns (1973-83). And his record? It was 126-150 overall (.457) and 72-104 (.409) in the CCIW. He finished in the top three twice -- in his second season Carthage finished second, and in his third season they finished third. Over the course of his final three seasons at the helm Carthage went 9-39. And the season before that, 1980, Carthage suffered the most lopsided loss in CCIW history, losing by 56 at home to North Park by a score of 108-52.

The winningest coach in Carthage history is Bosko Djurickovic (163-72, .694). His closest challenger in that category is Carthage's Depression-era coach, Hub Wagner (170-107, .614). No other coach in Carthage history tops .518 in winning percentage, not even the guys who only hung around for one year. What this means is that Bosko will not only continue to be the winningest coach in Carthage history by a huge margin, he'll also most likely have the most wins in Carthage history by this coming New Year's Day -- and in less than a decade on the job (ol' Hub put in sixteen campaigns at Carthage back in the days of hip flasks, raccoon coats, and "twenty-three skidoo"). While this say a lot about Djurickovic's abilities as a basketball coach, I'm afraid that it also says a lot about just how bad Carthage basketball history prior to his arrival really was.

"Distorting Carthage hoops history"? If citing the record book is "distorting", Clayton, then you may want to take up the matter with Steve Marovich.

[Gregory Sager]

Bosko's record obviously speaks for itself, and is hardly likely to be diminished by anything I could say!  And, as I've stated several times in here as the scope of Wheaton's player losses climbed, no matter WHO he was to lose, I'll NEVER pick a Bill Harris team to finish last.

This leads to a fascinating (to me, anyway) discussion, Chuck. It's not one in which Wheaton people would care to indulge, I'd imagine, but I'm dying to get Bill Harris (or Paul Ferguson) alone for five minutes in order to pick his brain about this. And the crux of that discussion is: What circumstances truly define a good coach, or a good coaching job? Set aside for a moment the proposition that recruiting makes up a big chunk of the task of coaching (argue over the percentage of its importance all you like). When it comes down to the bare bones of the job -- the X's and O's, the work in the film room and on the gym floor during practice as well as what goes on on the sidelines during a game -- how is a coach best measured?

Harris has very little with which to work this year. He lost four starters to graduation, and his one returning starter -- a player around whom any D3 coach could build a team, a surefire future three-time All-American in my estimation -- pulled rank and cited a higher authority as his reason why he won't play basketball anymore. Top that with three other expected contributors declining to wear orange and blue this season, and you're left with the prospect of a coach who would've been expecting a rebuilding year even under optimal circumstances suddenly faced with the prospect of making a meal from a nearly empty cupboard.

So ... what is the measure of a good coach? What is the yardstick by which one measures a successful year of running a basketball program? Is it defined in championships won, or 20-win seasons, or tournament appearances? Or should a coach with almost nothing in terms of raw material get credit for finishing .500, above and beyond the coach will plenty of raw material who finishes about where his team was expected to finish?

These are the sorts of questions that really interest me. Speaking only for myself, I think that what a coach does with a team that gives him less with which to work says more about him that what a coach does with a talent-stocked team. But that's just my opinion. I'm interested to find out what other people think about this.

[Gregory Sager]

(Congrats to Andrew Freeman as well, who is pictured on the frontpage as Keelan Amelianovich...this can only be some sort of good omen for Andrew.)

Pat has attempted to scrape the egg off of his face  by replacing that photo with the photo of Adam Dauksas that he used in last week's front-page story about the preseason Top 25. Problem is, he's captioned it this time as, "First-teamer Adam Dauksas has the rest of Division III guards chasing him" ... and the person chasing Dauksas in the picture is Nick Michael of Elmhurst.

If Nick Michael is a guard, then I am the Emperor of Japan.

[emeritusprof]

Sager --

I did not compare Bosko with anyone.  Don't say I did.

I said there were folks who attended games before Bosko and there was basketball before Bosko.  I take nothing away from Bosko, I simply ask that Carthage hoops history not be altered by baseless claims and assertions.  Put the record book away and accept the fact both upper gym bleachers had to be used to accommodate home game fans and yes, Carthage did play respectable ball. 

The fact you attended a few games at Carthage says nothing.  I was there for almost four decades and attended most home games.  I did not sit there alone.