MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Titan Q]

Cory Jones (broken left hand) was cleared to play by doctors and is back at practice...he should be ready to go for the opener Friday at Wabash vs Texas-Dallas.  That's really good news for the Titans.  Cory's presence is very significant for this team.

I suspect IWU's starting lineup will be the same as that for the Illinois game:

G Adam Dauksas
G Jason Fisher
F Keelan Amelianovich
F Chris Jones
C Zach Freeman

It will be interesting to see what happens between Chris and Cory in terms of the starting spot as the season goes on.  Chris is so improved as an offensive post player that I think he'll make a strong case for staying in that lineup.  (The bigger/stronger Cory is a better post defender).  Chris really looked good out there vs the Illini.

We'll see what happens...nice problem to have I suppose.

[Titan Q]

After the Wabash tournament next weekend, IWU plays two strong Illinois NAIA D1 teams at home - "receiving votes" Olivet Nazarene and #16 St. Xavier.  These teams have been playing games already, so I've been trying to follow them.

Olivet Nazarene won by 19 at NAIA D2 #15 St. Ambrose early this week.  (Augustana fans know good good St. A's program is.)  Thursday night Olivet played D1 Eastern Illinois in an exhibition and lost 69-62, and last night they won at NAIA D1 #14 McKendree College by 10 - McKendree is one of the best small college programs in the state year in and year out.  Tonight ONU hosts Brescia - the team that won at Hanover last year.

The ONU game at IWU will be the Tigers' 8th game and the Titans' 3rd.  As usual, ONU will be big and physical.  They start...

 
G Zach Birkey (6-0/187)
G Stan Chismark (6-5/205)
F Phil Howell (6-5/195)
F Zach Johnson (6-6/200)
C Travis Meeks (6-8/230)

Should be a great game.

St. Xavier lost to San Diego State - the preseason Mountain West favorite - last week by 10 points in an Exhibition.  They lost 69-64 at San Diego Christian, which is the old "Christian Heritage" - a solid NAIA D1 program.  I was at the game earlier this week when SXU squeaked by NAIA D2 Trinity Christian.  SXU is not as good as they have been the last couple years, but by the time they figure their rotation out, they will be a good basketball team.  IWU will not face a better post player all season long than Jabari Saunders...he is just an absolute ton.  SXU plays at St. Ambrose today - I'm interested to see how that one turns out. 

These two games vs NAIA teams do not count for anything basically (not in-region D3 games), but they are a perfect fit as far as getting ready for the CCIW.  ONU and SXU are "CCIW contender" caliber squads.

[augiedad]

Everyone realize that when this seasons starts, Bosko Djurickovic will have been the head coach at Carthage longer than he was at North Park?  He was at NPU 9 years, this is #10 in Kenosha.

CCIW titles leader board, current coaches:

1. Bosko Djurickovic (18 yrs*) - 5 titles ('85, '87, '00, '02, '03)
2. Scott Trost (8 yrs**) - 3 titles ('03, '04, '05)
3. Bill Harris (14 yrs) - 2 titles ('96, '99)
T4. Grey Giovanine (6 yrs) - 1 title ('03)
T4. Mark Scherer (9 yrs) - 1 title ('01)


* Bosko: North Park '85-'94, Carthage '97-'05

** Trost: Elmhurst '93-'96, IWU '02-'05

[Mac Attack]

How good will Millikin be this year?

[veterancciwfan]

Regarding CCIW recruiting: It seems to me that the best way to win in this league is to recruit top HS seniors rather than rely on D1 and D2 transfers, many of whom are selfish misfits who care only about themselves rather than the team. I think coaches who go the transfer route heavily usuallly regret it. And the decent HS seniors they recruited with promises to either start to see significan playing time regret it more and resent it. Trying to mix in several jr. D1 or D2 transfers in a single season is usually a recipie for disaster. One clear exception is the duo of Jon Litwiller (D1 transfer from ISU) and Scott Peterson (D1 transfer from NIU) who helped the 94-95 and 95-96 Titan teams tremendously. Both were unselfish team players who in large part made the 95-96 IWU team arguably (I word I hate to use) the best ever Bridges-coached IWU team. But they are exceptions in my opinion.  Another exception is Bill Braksick, the 7' transfer from ISU who came to IWU for his senior year in 87-88 and was a big part of that dominating team (except when NPC ran them out of the gym at Chicago).

[Gregory Sager]

Sager -- You're already into the revisionism.  You referred to pre-Bosko hoops players at Carthage being "Red Men."  Tell the truth!  At the time, they were Redmen.

I accompanied that "Red Men" reference with one of those big, grinning smiley faces, making it obvious that I was using the reference with an air of levity.

Well, obvious to someone with a sense of humor, that is.

If the Sager measure of success is used, both the Cubs and the Red Sox have existed for most of their history as woeful, miserable, lousy, UNsuccessful examples of baseball teams.

Your point being...?    

I think he's made his point, David. However, I'm not sure if he realizes that making a point is supposed to be a part of refuting someone else's argument, rather than sabotaging your own.  

North Park scrimmaged Dominican out in River Forest today. It was not pretty. The Stars finished five points ahead in the two varsity halves, although I should add that personal fouls weren't kept, and Dominican racked up a lot of personal fouls without really playing a lot of guys. Nevertheless, that doesn't mitigate the fact that NPU is a long ways away from being ready for action -- but, unfortunately, action starts on Friday night in Lisle against Benedictine. Struggling against a team like Dominican -- although they're not as bad as most people think -- is not an encouraging sign for the Park.

The defense actually looked pretty good. The Vikings blocked five shots and really harried the Stars on the inside with all those long arms. I can barely remember the last time the Vikings had so much size on the floor at one time, and I think it's really going to help them at the defensive end at the floor. The offense is the problem. They cut down on the turnovers from their first scrimmage against UWW, but they looked much more tentative on offense. And when they did square up and shoot, the shooting itself really went south. Uriah Rice can't get healthy too soon for my taste; the Vikings really need someone who can make opponents pay when the zone appears.

The centers are working hard to improve, but one has to remember that all three of them are freshmen who have never suited up for a college basketball game before. Likewise, Jason Gordon is a fantastic basketball player -- but he's not a point guard. At least not yet, he isn't. His growing pains at that position mean that the Vikings have growing pains right along with him.

On the plus side, Jay Alexander continues to look impressive at the three, leading the Vikings with 14 points. Given that it's a small-forward-dominated league at the moment, he might have to take some lumps this season. But his future is really bright. Brett Mathisen added 12, and although he hasn't looked great in either scrimmage, I don't worry about him. When the bell rings on Friday night, he'll be fine. Eric Samuelson looked terrific off the bench. And Gordon is so gifted that he has a positive impact on the game even as he struggles to learn a new position -- I counted nine rebounds that he pulled down.

This team has talent, but ironing out their rough spots and getting them to click as a unit is going to require a lot of patience. And there will be some frustrating days along the way. Saturday was definitely one of them.

[Gregory Sager]

Regarding CCIW recruiting: It seems to me that the best way to win in this league is to recruit top HS seniors rather than rely on D1 and D2 transfers, many of whom are selfish misfits who care only about themselves rather than the team.

That's painting with far too broad a brush, Lanny. And it's too harsh as well. Scholarship-level transfers are not a homogenous commodity. They are human beings and distinct individuals. Speaking only for myself, of course, I don't much care for stereotyping people with phrases such as, "many of whom are selfish misfits who care only about themselves rather than the team." And how interesting that the three D1 transfers you named were all Titans -- and that all three of them mysteriously happened to be exceptions to your stereotype? 

And the decent HS seniors they recruited with promises to either start to see significan playing time regret it more and resent it.

This part of your post has more substance to it. It's very true that bringing in transfers can (but not necessarily will) increase a team's internal tension. The returnees may feel a sense of entitlement because they've paid their dues, which can lead to sour grapes if they get passed up on the depth chart by someone new. I saw a certain amount of that with the North Park teams of the late eighties and early nineties, which were good (but not great) teams that did not always have happy locker rooms.

Nevertheless, you're overstating your case. First, as I said I don't think that D1 or D2 transfers all share the same personality and perspective. Second, although I realize that you're just talking about that one particular type of transfer, I don't think that their circumstances are all that different from a juco transfer, or an NAIA transfer, or a D3 transfer. Yes, there have been some former players from NCAA scholarship levels who've felt an innate sense of superiority over their new D3 teammates. But in my experience, those kinds of guys are a distinct minority. Most former D1 or D2 guys rode the far end of the bench at that level, and thus don't tend to have such puffed-up egos -- in fact, many of them tend to be former D1 or D2 walk-ons rather than scholarship players. Because of that, they're just as prone to have a realistic sense of their place in the college basketball universe as do transfers from other levels. Some players have big heads, some of them don't. It's true of homegrown players as much as it is of transfers. Again, I really dislike all the stereotyping being bandied about regarding transfers.

Third, while I realize that you're just talking about that one particular category of transfers, it needs to be said yet again that programs that have transfers of all types don't necessarily find them to ultimately be an impediment. All five of North Park's national championship teams had a starter who was a former transfer, and four of those teams had two starters who were transfers. In fact, the two All-Americans and CCIW MOPs from the 1986-87 national championship team, Michael Starks and Mike Barach, were juco transfers. Vikings guard Ernie Hubbard, the MVP of the 1984-85 NCAA tourney, was a transfer from D2 SIU-Edwardsville.

Some people think a transfer bears the mark of Cain. I don't. And some consider transfers "guilty until proven innocent" in terms of being an obstacle to building a winning team. I don't think that's true, either.

[Gregory Sager]

Mac Attack, nobody knows much about Millikin. They are the Ice Station Zebra of the CCIW. Contributors to Posting Up from that school have been few and far between over the years, and it's been several seasons since anyone who follows the Big Blue has bothered to post here. Worse, since Decatur is the far southern outpost of the league, the rest of us that follow the other seven teams don't see much of the Big Blue aside from when our own teams play them.

How good will Millikin be this year, you ask. As opposed to MacMurray, or as opposed to the rest of the CCIW? Or as opposed to last season's Millikin team? I don't understand the premise of your question, and even if I did I'm afraid that I just don't have enough data to give you a satisfying answer. I can tell you who is on their roster and who is most likely to play against your Highlanders, but you can glean that information yourself from the Millikin website.

Sorry I can't be of more help.

[Mac Attack]

Thanks, Sager. I guess I was asking what are Millikin's general prospects for the 2005-2006 season. I saw where they were picked to finish 7th in the CCIW, and where they graduated their guards, who were their primary scorers. They were 12-13 last year and lost 10 of their last 15. The beat Mac by 22 but lost to Blackburn. I'm familiar with some of the players that they'll be counting on this year, and think Mac will be more competitive this time around. Just wanted the over-all view of the CCIW followers on this board on what to expect, in terms of offense, defense, and coaching. Next Friday will come soon enough. Good luck to all CCIW teams!!!

[Titan Q]

Other transfers I can think of in recent years that were much more than "selfish misfits"...

Kevin Menard (Marquette), Carthage
Greg Ktistou (Eastern Illinois), Carthage
Michael Collins (Bradley), Wheaton


Menard, Ktistou ("thees-two" - a refresher since we haven't had to deal with Greg's name in years), and Collins played key support roles on CCIW title teams.  Notice I say "support roles", because none of the above was a CCIW star, despite the fact they transfered to a Division III team from solid D I programs.  Ktistou fit in nicely with Jason Wiertel, Antoine McDaniel, and Rob Garnes...Menard played on the first post-Wiertel Carthage team with McDaniel and Garnes...Collins played with Luke Moo and Rob Hamann.  The fact these guys were not really more than key role players says a lot about this conference.

[Titan Q]

IWU plays its final scrimmage today vs D3 Luther College (IIAC) at a neutral location - Southeastern Community College in Iowa.  Southeastern is about halfway between Bloomington, Illinois and Decorah, Iowa I think.  If I get any information on how it goes, I will post.

[Gregory Sager]

Other transfers I can think of in recent years that were much more than "selfish misfits"...

Kevin Menard (Marquette), Carthage
Greg Ktistou (Eastern Illinois), Carthage
Michael Collins (Bradley), Wheaton


Menard, Ktistou ("thees-two" - a refresher since we haven't had to deal with Greg's name in years), and Collins played key support roles on CCIW title teams

Another transfer who played a key role on a recent CCIW title team, although not a D1 transfer, was Justin Carley, the All-CCIW point guard on the 2001 Elmhurst conference championship team. Carley played his first two seasons at a junior college.

Plus, Carthage had a former juco player who started alongside Ktistou, Wiertel, Garnes, and McDaniel on the 2000 CCIW title team, center Bill Garner.

[cardinalpride]

Mr. Sager, you are correct Sir!!    New poster just checking to see how this works.

[cardinalpride]

Mr. Sager, you are correct Sir!!    New poster just checking to see how this works.

[cardinalpride]

But I agree that Dennie Bridges established such a tradition of success that there are probably several coaches in the CCIW who would have had the same (or nearly the same) success - the current coaches at Wheaton, Augie, and Carthage spring immediately to mind.  This is NOT to say that they are as good (or better) than Trost, just that PROGRAMS tend to sustain for a while, and the impact of a COACH may not be felt for a long time (notwithstanding Notre Dame's collapse and re-birth).

C'mon, Chuck, rein it in a little. The current coach at Carthage owns five national championship rings. He's taken teams to the Final Four three times as the man in charge (at two different schools, no less), and in two of those Final Four trips he was able to climb the stepladder and snip the last piece of twine off the rim.

Bosko Djurickovic wouldn't need to ride Dennis Bridges' coattails in order to be successful at Illinois Wesleyan or anywhere else, just as he didn't need to ride Dan McCarrell's coattails when he succeeded "the Chief" at North Park in 1985. Heck, he didn't ride anybody's coattails at Carthage -- that program had been a total shipwreck for eons before he got there. In the sixteen years prior to his arrival Carthage had had one winning overall season and zero winning CCIW seasons, going 142-266 (.348) overall and 61-187 (.246) in the CCIW and finishing in last place eight of those sixteen seasons. In his fourth year at the helm Carthage won their first CCIW title in 37 years, and in his sixth year he took them to the Final Four.

Nor, for that matter, does he need to apologize for his career as measured against Scott Trost's. The only coach with a c.v. approaching his within the D3 ranks in terms of wins, winning percentage, and national success is Glenn Robinson at F&M, along with perhaps Dick Reynolds of Otterbein, Mike Neer of Rochester, and Glenn Van Wieren of Hope, with Tom Murphy at SUNYIT getting a pass because his great Hamilton teams of the eighties weren't allowed to compete in the NCAA tourney. And I don't know if any of those other guys ever had to build a program from scratch the way that Djurickovic did at Carthage (although Murphy is doing so now at SUNYIT).

Bill Harris is no coattail-rider, either. Wheaton had been a mediocre program at best (and often wasn't even mediocre) for two decades when he arrived on the scene in the early nineties. His predecessors were Dick Helm (1975-83), who went 90-112 (.446) overall and 52-76 (.406) in the CCIW, and Bill Harbeck (1983-91), who went 86-119 (.420) overall and 46-82 (.359) in the CCIW. Wheaton basketball has certainly had a lot more success under the tutelage of Harris than it has at any point since that school's glory days under Lee Pfund back in the late fifties. The only two CCIW titles, and the only four NCAA tourney appearances, that the school has achieved since Eisenhower was in the White House have been under Harris.

Look, I have a ton of respect for Scott Trost and what he has been able to accomplish during his brief tenure at Illinois Wesleyan. And the same certainly holds true for everything Bridges accomplished during his four decades running the Titans program. But ease up on the hyperbole a little when it comes to throwing Djurickovic, Harris, and Giovanine into your comparisons. I understand the point that you're trying to make, but it reads as though you're being a little condescending towards those three coaches, even though I doubt that that was your actual intent.

Mr. Sager, you are correct Sir!!    New poster just checking to see how this works.