MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Titan Q]

QOWI, RW%, whatever the number may be.  I find it hard to believe and a little silly that Elmhurst would even be in question to make the National Tourney if they win their next two games.  Sitting with a 21-6 record and taking 2nd place (regular season and conference tourney) in arguably the toughest D3 conference in America.  Among the Top 25, heck, Top 15 all year long.  Beating 5 or 6 Top 25 ranked teams throughout the year.  Thats a heck of a resume.

Think about this in Division 1.  Would there be any way this type of resume would be a bubble team?  Not a chance.  Maybe the committe is putting to much emphasis on a computer number and not enough on common sense.  If Elmhurst can't get in with that resume in the CCIW, then I question our opinion that the CCIW is one of the top few conferences in that nation.  Sorry for the ranting but I just find it really hard to believe.

This is not Division 1 and any discussion of "resumes" ala Jay Bilas or Doug Gotlieb and the D1 bubble situation is really just a waste of time.  Remember,

1) With a win tonight and a loss in the CCIW tourney title game, Elmhurst will not be not 21-6 in the eyes of the selection committee...they'll be 17-6 (in-region games are all that counts). 

2) Strength of conference is not part of the criteria.

3) Positioning in the D3hoops.com Top 25 poll is not part of the criteria.

4) Wins over teams in the D3hoops.com Top 25 poll is not part of the criteria.


In the Division III selection process, there are only five things that matter:

* Win-loss percentage against regional opponents
* Quality of wins index (regional games only)
* In-region head-to-head competition
* In-region results vs common regional opponents
* In-region results vs regionally ranked teams

2007 Division III Men's Basketball Championship Hanbook (pages 16-17)

Q - I understand exactly how it works.  I just find it strange that we're always touting the CCIW as the best conference in D3 basketball yet our 21-6 2nd place team can't make the National Tourney.

79Jaybird - You are correct.  Elmhurst needs to just take care of business and make all of this a non-issue.

Not only do we tout it, but the Massey Index - a totally objective mathmatical ranking - supports the CCIW as the best league in Division III...

http://www.mratings.com/rate.php?lg=cb&sub=III&mid=1#conf

Yet, if the season ended today, the #3-rated UAA might get 5 teams and the CCIW 1.  Again, it's all about the selection process and the clearly established/communicated criteria.

One thing that is hurting Elmhurst, as Greg posted, is their meaningless games played vs IIT, Alma, Gwynedd-Mercy, and Albion.  The Bluejays could really use a couple more non-conference, in-region wins right now. 

Look at Augie's non-conference schedule...

http://www.d3hoops.com/school_info.php?school=Augustana&team=m

It's textbook for a team from a top conference in terms of Pool C positioning.

[Titan Q]

Similarly, while it now seems like a long time ago, I recall my first game of this season when U of C visited Merner Field House for an early pre-conference game against NCC.  If I remember correctly, NCC won all three periods, handily, and this was while they were still trying to figure out their guard situation, against a team that is guard-heavy and experienced.  I know it was only one game, and an early one at that, but can those more in the know please give me any kind of comparison on the CCIW vs. the UAA, particularly this season?

Saturday Chicago (11-2) and Wash U (10-3) will play for the UAA Pool A bid in St. Louis (Wash U would win the tie-breaker at 11-3 via a sweep of Chicago).  Chicago defeated Wheaton at home by 4 in a final possession type game and defeated Illinois Wesleyan by 4 in a game that was very close throughout as well...

http://athletics.uchicago.edu/mensbasketball/WHT-UCM.HTM

http://athletics.uchicago.edu/mensbasketball/UCM-IWU.HTM


Wheaton is scrambling to make the CCIW conference tournament and IWU finished 7th in the CCIW.

Chicago is a good, solid team, but I think Augustana and Elmhurst are a notch above.  I'd put Chicago right in the cluster with Wheaton, Carthage, and North Central.

I think Wash U is the better of the two UAA title contenders -- I'd put Wash U right up there with Augustana and Elmhurst.  They are more balanced than Chicago.

If somehow Chicago could make a trade for Zach Freeman, they'd be a favorite to cut down the nets in Salem.

[Titan Q]

The CCIW has two Jostens finalists!  Congratulations to Augustana's Drew Wessels and IWU's Zach Freeman.  What on honor for both of these impressive student-athletes.


http://www.d3hoops.com/

[ecdubb420]

what incentive do teams have playing out of region games?
It just seems a tad outrageous that those games basically mean nothing and as Titan Q reported:  In the Division III selection process, there are only five things that matter:

* Win-loss percentage against regional opponents
* Quality of wins index (regional games only)
* In-region head-to-head competition
* In-region results vs common regional opponents
* In-region results vs regionally ranked teams

Some sort of national QOWI is needed to determine who makes it to the national tournament, or else we may see teams not wanting to play the other national powers (or just any out of region games) during the season as that win does nothing to help their cause in getting to the Big Dance.

[coebball70]

Titan Q - I know it has been said before, but it is worth saying again;
Thank you for all your detailed work that you share with this board.  It is greatly appreciated by most of us!
CoeB'ball

[Pat Coleman]

QOWI, RW%, whatever the number may be.  I find it hard to believe and a little silly that Elmhurst would even be in question to make the National Tourney if they win their next two games.  Sitting with a 21-6 record and taking 2nd place (regular season and conference tourney) in arguably the toughest D3 conference in America.  Among the Top 25, heck, Top 15 all year long.  Beating 5 or 6 Top 25 ranked teams throughout the year.  Thats a heck of a resume.

Think about this in Division 1.  Would there be any way this type of resume would be a bubble team?  Not a chance.  Maybe the committe is putting to much emphasis on a computer number and not enough on common sense.  If Elmhurst can't get in with that resume in the CCIW, then I question our opinion that the CCIW is one of the top few conferences in that nation.  Sorry for the ranting but I just find it really hard to believe.

This is not new, however -- this system has been in place since 2000 and the regional arch-emphasis has been going on for at least five years now. It's time for everyone to pay it some heed and get with the program.

They may well take Elmhurst, but it's a leap beyond what the QOWI would suggest they do.

[armywife]

I want to add my congratulations to Drew Wessels and Zach Freeman for being named as finalists for the Josten's award. These student athletes are well rounded and are going to do well in whatever they attempt past their college days. I read Drew's qualifications for this award on the Augie web site. It's amazing that these guys can play college level sports, do well academically, and be active in their communities all at the same time. They all need a twin, maybe Zach has a leg up with Andrew.

Ridiculous is usually the most mis-spelled word on this board. It's kind of funny how often this comes up.

[rknuppel]

QOWI, RW%, whatever the number may be.  I find it hard to believe and a little silly that Elmhurst would even be in question to make the National Tourney if they win their next two games.  Sitting with a 21-6 record and taking 2nd place (regular season and conference tourney) in arguably the toughest D3 conference in America.  Among the Top 25, heck, Top 15 all year long.  Beating 5 or 6 Top 25 ranked teams throughout the year.  Thats a heck of a resume.

Think about this in Division 1.  Would there be any way this type of resume would be a bubble team?  Not a chance.  Maybe the committe is putting to much emphasis on a computer number and not enough on common sense.  If Elmhurst can't get in with that resume in the CCIW, then I question our opinion that the CCIW is one of the top few conferences in that nation.  Sorry for the ranting but I just find it really hard to believe.

This is not new, however -- this system has been in place since 2000 and the regional arch-emphasis has been going on for at least five years now. It's time for everyone to pay it some heed and get with the program.

They may well take Elmhurst, but it's a leap beyond what the QOWI would suggest they do.

Pat,

I don't think myself or anyone else is suggesting this system is new.  My point is simple - if the #2 team in the #1 D3 conference can't get in the tournament, something is wrong!  Gotta love all this speculation 

Congrats to Drew Wessels and Zach Freeman on being Jostens finalists.

[sac]

Hard to believe or not... that's the way it is.   Most here remember that Wheaton went 21-4 in 2003-04 and did NOT make the playoffs.  Wheaton was ranked in the top 25 as well.  Record and Top 25 ranking mean little as to whether or not you make the playoffs.

In 04 there were only 5 Pool C bids, under the current setup that Wheaton team surely would not have been on the bubble.

[Mugsy]

Hard to believe or not... that's the way it is.   Most here remember that Wheaton went 21-4 in 2003-04 and did NOT make the playoffs.  Wheaton was ranked in the top 25 as well.  Record and Top 25 ranking mean little as to whether or not you make the playoffs.

In 04 there were only 5 Pool C bids, under the current setup that Wheaton team surely would not have been on the bubble.

Yup, they probably would have received a Pool C bid under the current format. 

I just vividly remember how painful it was to have a 21-4 season for a top-tier CCIW team and not make it into the playoffs.  I know there have been other similar cases (less so since the expanded playoffs), but being a Wheaton alum this one sticks out the most in my mind.  I suspect we may have 1 or 2 CCIW teams feel the same sting this year due to the competitive nature of the CCIW (more conference losses).

Historically Wheaton is hurt by a reasonable number of out-of-region games early in the year due to the non-conference tourney trips they schedule - ie. California this year, Boston, Texas in past years.  In addition, while they do play some very tough non-conference opponents on the whole, they do seem to schedule a few too many soft teams which doesn't seem to help them in the end.

[diehardfan]

Actually, Wheaton was out here in Cali last year, and was in NYC this year. Three years ago it was Boston, and four years it was Texas, and five it was DC. Next year, incidentally, I believe they are heading out here to Cali again along with IWU who is also heading out here for their winter break as well. With the new adminstrative regions it probably makes sense for Midwest teams to head West more often and play the mid to high level SCIACs and NWCs and independants fairly often. A win at Redlands or Oxy woyuld be worth 15 this year, and I'm confident that the better teams from the CCIW can beat the better SCIAC teams most of the time. So,  hopefully I'll be getting to catch more CCIW action out here in DIII basketball siberia on an annual basis.

[sac]

Heading west makes perfect sense since it obviously cuts down on the amount of time kids spend away from school, and clearly keeps the travel budgets down.

[tuvwxyz]

QOWI, RW%, whatever the number may be.  I find it hard to believe and a little silly that Elmhurst would even be in question to make the National Tourney if they win their next two games.  Sitting with a 21-6 record and taking 2nd place (regular season and conference tourney) in arguably the toughest D3 conference in America.  Among the Top 25, heck, Top 15 all year long.  Beating 5 or 6 Top 25 ranked teams throughout the year.  Thats a heck of a resume.

Think about this in Division 1.  Would there be any way this type of resume would be a bubble team?  Not a chance.  Maybe the committe is putting to much emphasis on a computer number and not enough on common sense.  If Elmhurst can't get in with that resume in the CCIW, then I question our opinion that the CCIW is one of the top few conferences in that nation.  Sorry for the ranting but I just find it really hard to believe.

This is not Division 1 and any discussion of "resumes" ala Jay Bilas or Doug Gotlieb and the D1 bubble situation is really just a waste of time.  Remember,

1) With a win tonight and a loss in the CCIW tourney title game, Elmhurst will not be not 21-6 in the eyes of the selection committee...they'll be 17-6 (in-region games are all that counts). 

2) Strength of conference is not part of the criteria.

3) Positioning in the D3hoops.com Top 25 poll is not part of the criteria.

4) Wins over teams in the D3hoops.com Top 25 poll is not part of the criteria.


In the Division III selection process, there are only five things that matter:

* Win-loss percentage against regional opponents
* Quality of wins index (regional games only)
* In-region head-to-head competition
* In-region results vs common regional opponents
* In-region results vs regionally ranked teams

2007 Division III Men's Basketball Championship Hanbook (pages 16-17)

Sounds like this system needs some work. A complete overhaul.

[LU_nut]

I been an LU fan for 5-6 years and a poster on the MWC site.  I thought I would weigh in on a couple of items I see mentioned over on this site.

First, congrats to the Josten's nominees from the CCIW.  I have mentioned before on this site that I saw Freeman play a couple of games over the years and I think he is the best D3 big guy I have seen.  I know that more than just the playing floor goes into the equation, but Zach should be a very strong candidate.

Second, a lot of people get wrapped up in the in-region vs out of region games.  As pointed out, the system has been in place for a good while and is well understood by the coaches and administrators.  Fans who are upset about their rank due to the number of out of region games should talk to their schools first.  I am not saying that I think the system makes sense, just saying that no one should really complain when everyone knows the rules.

Lastly, I have read a lot of people argue on this site that the CCIW is the best conference in the country.  I would be one of the first to argue it is one of the better conferences in the country, but would argue that it is not the best in the Midwest area.   I have seen a lot of CCIW teams as well as a lot of WIAC teams and it is hard to argue against the WIAC being the best year in and year out.  If you look at post-season success, it pretty much says it all.  I think the WIAC has around 2X the number of national championships than the CCIW.  Most impressively, those championships are spread between several teams.  The CCIW championships are tied to the long lost dynasty of North Park.   Both the CCIW and the WIAC are amongst the deepest conferences.

BTW, I would readily agree that both the CCIW and WIAC are superior most years to the MWC so I am not being a homer.

LU Nut

[Mr. Ypsi]

LU_nut,

Most of us would agree that usually the conference pecking order is WIAC, CCIW, then a cluster of OAC, NJAC, perhaps UAA, perhaps others.  But this year it is pretty widely agreed that the CCIW is a clear #1, with WIAC and UAA neck-and-neck for second.

Back when there were only 5 pool C slots, both the WIAC and CCIW pretty regularly bemoaned the fact that they would beat each other up (internally) so much that each conference often got only one slot (this may still be the case with the OAC this year).  With 19 pool Cs, we can generally count on at least two teams, and probably (like last year) often 3.  One thing we probably won't see, which the UAA might accomplish this year, is 4 or 5 teams - they have the unique advantage of being spread across 3 regions, so may often have 2 or 3 teams 'at the table' at the same time.