MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Naperick]

Elmhurst beat Western Illinois in Macomb in December, 1992.  I think the final score was 84-83.  Jason Hayes hit a three-pointer at the buzzer to give the Bluejays the win.  The 'Jays finished 10-15 that season and 3-11 in the CCIW to finish 8th.  It was the first season for Scott Trost as the EC head coach.

Elmhurst lost to Western two years earlier, 107-60.  They lost to WIU two years after the win, 78-72. 

I did find on the WIU athletics website that Augustana beat Western, 76-71, on Nov. 25, 2000. 

[ecdubb420]

KRay, just terrible.  Can that trend please end.
Speaking of Raymond, what will it take for him not to win his 3rd straight CCIW POY?  I know thats getting ahead of things, but if he stays healthy and plays like he has the last two years, is there any circumstance that could give someone else the nod? 
To me, Steve Djurikovic is the only player who could win the award (over Raymond) as he has the perfect combo of a potential overachieving team (doubtful) plus monster stats. 
Coach Scherer will be going for his 200th career win this Saturday.  Just another reason to head to Elmhurst this Saturday.  UW-SP and a potential matchup with WashU (Dec 20th) are the biggest non-conference games I can remember for EC in a long, long time (maybe ever).  Winning even one could take this team a long way towards finally returning back to the big dance. 
The non-conference scheduling ie s still a reaction to that robbery that was the Bluejays bubble being burst following the 21-6 06-07 season. 
Though this team is #8 in the nation (soon to be as high as #5), I get the feeling they are flying under the radar with all the talk out of Wheaton, Augie and IWU. 
First conference games in less than 30 days!

[Titan Q]

Though this team is #8 in the nation (soon to be as high as #5), I get the feeling they are flying under the radar with all the talk out of Wheaton, Augie and IWU. 

I said that last night on Hoopsville...Elmhurst does appear to be flying under the radar.  For whatever reason, there just have not been a lot of Elmhurst posters here so far in '08-09.

[Titan Q]

Speaking of Raymond, what will it take for him not to win his 3rd straight CCIW POY?  I know thats getting ahead of things, but if he stays healthy and plays like he has the last two years, is there any circumstance that could give someone else the nod? 
To me, Steve Djurikovic is the only player who could win the award (over Raymond) as he has the perfect combo of a potential overachieving team (doubtful) plus monster stats. 

I'd say it all depends on the final standings.  If Carthage "overachieves" significantly from that 5th place coaches poll pick, and if Wheaton "underchieves" from the 1st place pick, Djurickovic should win it.  Raymond's early numbers are oustanding, but Steve D's are just crazy...

Djurickovic (5 games): 32.2 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 7.0 apg, 78-90 FT (.897)
Raymond (6 games): 23.8 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 2.7 apg, 45-49 FG (.918)

Of course, no sense in comparing numbers until about midway through the CCIW season - to me, MOP discussions should only center around conference-only stats and results.


- Q, on location in Baton Rouge, LA

[thundermike11]

Speaking of Raymond, what will it take for him not to win his 3rd straight CCIW POY?  I know thats getting ahead of things, but if he stays healthy and plays like he has the last two years, is there any circumstance that could give someone else the nod? 
To me, Steve Djurikovic is the only player who could win the award (over Raymond) as he has the perfect combo of a potential overachieving team (doubtful) plus monster stats. 

I'd say it all depends on the final standings.  If Carthage "overachieves" significantly from that 5th place coaches poll pick, and if Wheaton "underchieves" from the 1st place pick, Djurickovic should win it.  Raymond's early numbers are oustanding, but Steve D's are just crazy...

Djurickovic (5 games): 32.2 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 7.0 apg, 78-90 FT (.897)
Raymond (6 games): 23.8 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 2.7 apg, 45-49 FG (.918)

Of course, no sense in comparing numbers until about midway through the CCIW season - to me, MOP discussions should only center around conference-only stats and results.


- Q, on location in Baton Rouge, LA

You also have to consider that the Carthage offense really runs solely through Steve. He does not have another AA in his starting five, so I think that Steve will probably end up with better numbers than Kent, because Wheaton is more balanced. But if Kent plays like Kent and Wheaton wins the CCIW, I think it's more of a formality than anything else.

With that said, I was blown away watching Steve this weekend against Hope. He certainly is an elite player.

[Titan Q]

You also have to consider that the Carthage offense really runs solely through Steve. He does not have another AA in his starting five, so I think that Steve will probably end up with better numbers than Kent, because Wheaton is more balanced. But if Kent plays like Kent and Wheaton wins the CCIW, I think it's more of a formality than anything else.

Wheaton's offense runs through Kent Raymond every bit as much as Carthage's does through Djurickovic.  Does Wheaton have a better supporting cast?  Yes, because they have a productive low-post player in Wiele (I would take Fendley over Panner actually.).  But that doesn't mean the Thunder offense doesn't exclusively flow through Kent Raymond first.  I'd love to hear someone suggest to an opposing CCIW head coach that Wheaton's offense does not "run solely through Raymond."  Teams exclusively prepare their game plans vs Wheaton to try to contain Kent Raymond because he is absolutely the #1 focal point.

[Jim Matson]

Bob, I think there is a better way of stating what I assume ThunderMike was trying to say about Raymond's position within the Thunder squad versus Djurickovic's within Carthage's.  And certainly does have to do with your comment regarding supporting cast.

What's up in Baton Rouge?

[thundermike11]

You also have to consider that the Carthage offense really runs solely through Steve. He does not have another AA in his starting five, so I think that Steve will probably end up with better numbers than Kent, because Wheaton is more balanced. But if Kent plays like Kent and Wheaton wins the CCIW, I think it's more of a formality than anything else.

Wheaton's offense runs through Kent Raymond every bit as much as Carthage's does through Djurickovic.  Does Wheaton have a better supporting cast?  Yes, because they have a productive low-post player in Wiele (I would take Fendley over Panner actually.).  But that doesn't mean the Thunder offense doesn't exclusively flow through Kent Raymond first.  I'd love to hear someone suggest to an opposing CCIW head coach that Wheaton's offense does not "run solely through Raymond."  Teams exclusively prepare their game plans vs Wheaton to try to contain Kent Raymond because he is absolutely the #1 focal point.

Allow me to clarify, because I think we are essentially saying the same thing. On Friday night there were more than a few occasions in which Steve slowly walked the ball up the court, dribbled around for a while and then with 8 or so seconds on the shot clock drove to the basket either making a ridiculous shot or getting to the foul line. Why? Because Steve has to score for Carthage to win games. Wheaton is in a bit of a different situation, I think. Wheaton rarely has a possession in which Wiele does not get a touch in the post. The inside-out game is very much an integral part of the Thunder offense. I never said that Wheaton's offense does not run through Kent, my point was that Wheaton does not need Kent to score 32 points a night to win. It seems at least right now that Carthage does need that from Steve. Again, my point was not to suggest that Wheaton's offense does not run through Kent. The point I was trying to make was only that Steve will probably end up with better numbers than Kent because Carthage demands much more scoring from him night in and night out than Wheaton requires from Kent. I hope that clarifies things a bit.

And I don't think I would trade BP for Fendley. Granted, I've only seen Fendly once. But BP is one of the best perimeter defenders in the CCIW. The biggest contribution he makes in my opinion is on the defensive end of the floor. For example, there have been two games this year (Loras and Calvin) where BP has shot rather poorly and yet the team has still won. And when he does score he usually does so in an unstoppable manner (i.e. Saturday vs. Hope).

On a completely unrelated note, some good news that I heard today is that Jeremy Berntsen has been cleared to play and will most likely be available for Wheaton in January. It's been a long wait and it will be nice to have him back in the mix.

[Gregory Sager]

I much prefer Lil Bosko to KRay.

I'm partial to "The Free-Throw Line Assassin" because he will kill you by getting to the line.

It's a bit long, isn't it?

Of course, it could be shortened to "Assassin" ... but then Jack Tatum would come looking for Steve D., and I don't think anybody really wants that.

Haven't posted in awhile---Time to re-join the conversation---Your comment brought back some fond memories---Back in the day, I guarded Tom Gramkow, Johnny Butler, Randy Pfund and Kenny Anderson, to name a few---All great players and athletes---But none were more competitive than Keith MacDonald---I loved playing against him because he was a terrific player and a fierce competitor who could run all day---No cheap shots---Just tough---He never gave you a chance to relax at either end of the floor---I don't even remember Bosko---He must have been a role player, but that is understandable---This was a period when NPU was pretty talented----Sorry for the trip down memory lane

No problem. The CCIW doesn't exist in a historical vacuum. This has been a great league for a long, long time, and it's always good to hear about CCIW players who shined in a different era.

Elmhurst beat Western Illinois in Macomb in December, 1992.  I think the final score was 84-83.  Jason Hayes hit a three-pointer at the buzzer to give the Bluejays the win.  The 'Jays finished 10-15 that season and 3-11 in the CCIW to finish 8th.  It was the first season for Scott Trost as the EC head coach.

Elmhurst lost to Western two years earlier, 107-60.  They lost to WIU two years after the win, 78-72. 

I did find on the WIU athletics website that Augustana beat Western, 76-71, on Nov. 25, 2000. 

Thanks. I think that that brings us up to six CCIW wins over D1 teams -- one each by Augustana, Carthage, Elmhurst, Illinois Wesleyan, Millikin, and North Park, with two of the wins coming over Western Illinois. Moral of the story: Try to get the Leathernecks on your sked sometime.

Speaking of Raymond, what will it take for him not to win his 3rd straight CCIW POY?  I know thats getting ahead of things, but if he stays healthy and plays like he has the last two years, is there any circumstance that could give someone else the nod? 
To me, Steve Djurikovic is the only player who could win the award (over Raymond) as he has the perfect combo of a potential overachieving team (doubtful) plus monster stats. 

I'd say it all depends on the final standings.  If Carthage "overachieves" significantly from that 5th place coaches poll pick, and if Wheaton "underchieves" from the 1st place pick, Djurickovic should win it.  Raymond's early numbers are oustanding, but Steve D's are just crazy...

Djurickovic (5 games): 32.2 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 7.0 apg, 78-90 FT (.897)
Raymond (6 games): 23.8 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 2.7 apg, 45-49 FG (.918)

Of course, no sense in comparing numbers until about midway through the CCIW season - to me, MOP discussions should only center around conference-only stats and results.


- Q, on location in Baton Rouge, LA

This is a timely debate, since Djurickovic and Raymond were named CCIW Co-Players of the Week today.

[devildog29]

I suppose I could look this up somewhere, but was ISU not a D1 school when IWU beat them?  I figure there are enough mental wikipedians in this room that know this off the top of their heads so I will choose the lazy route and rely on their expertise.

[Gregory Sager]

I suppose I could look this up somewhere, but was ISU not a D1 school when IWU beat them?  I figure there are enough mental wikipedians in this room that know this off the top of their heads so I will choose the lazy route and rely on their expertise.

I'm pretty sure that Illinois State was NCAA College Division (the precursor to D2 and D3) when Illinois Wesleyan beat the Redbirds for the final time in 1969-70. That was also the final year of the old Interstate Intercollegiate Athletic Conference, a College Division circuit that ISU dominated in its last few seasons. The year before (1968-69), ISU played North Park in the College Division national tournament.

[AndOne]

You also have to consider that the Carthage offense really runs solely through Steve. He does not have another AA in his starting five, so I think that Steve will probably end up with better numbers than Kent, because Wheaton is more balanced. But if Kent plays like Kent and Wheaton wins the CCIW, I think it's more of a formality than anything else.

Wheaton's offense runs through Kent Raymond every bit as much as Carthage's does through Djurickovic.  Does Wheaton have a better supporting cast?  Yes, because they have a productive low-post player in Wiele (I would take Fendley over Panner actually.).  But that doesn't mean the Thunder offense doesn't exclusively flow through Kent Raymond first.  I'd love to hear someone suggest to an opposing CCIW head coach that Wheaton's offense does not "run solely through Raymond."  Teams exclusively prepare their game plans vs Wheaton to try to contain Kent Raymond because he is absolutely the #1 focal point.

And I don't think I would trade BP for Fendley. Granted, I've only seen Fendly once. But BP is one of the best perimeter defenders in the CCIW. The biggest contribution he makes in my opinion is on the defensive end of the floor. For example, there have been two games this year (Loras and Calvin) where BP has shot rather poorly and yet the team has still won. And when he does score he usually does so in an unstoppable manner (i.e. Saturday vs. Hope).

Thunder/TQ

I believe the answer to the question of Fendley vs Panner comes down to "Exactly what are you looking for?"

Sean Fendley is a pure shooter who can likely shoot, particularly off the pass, as well as anyone in the league. He is deadly from anyplace on the floor, but is unsurpassed in hitting from the deep corners, especially from the left side. He has increased his strength tremendously since he entered the CCIW from high school. I'd say his strength has increased at about the same proportion that Andy Wiele of WC increased his. His foot speed has also increased as a by-product of his added strength, but he still can't be considered a burner. The added strength has also aided Sean as far as being able to get his shot off from even deeper than earlier in his career as well as when he is more closely defended. Defensively, he is average at best.

Ben Panner is the choice if you're looking for the better ball handler and passer/distributor of the basketball. He is quicker than Fendley, but not as strong. His quickness results in his being a better defender than Sean. He is not as consistent a shooter as Fendley. He is more of a streak shooter, cold one night and hot the next--or, as in the Wheaton game vs Hope Sat, cold one half and very hot the next. Overall, an above average shooter/scorer, but not quite in Fendley's class in that facet of the game.   

[Gregory Sager]

You also have to consider that the Carthage offense really runs solely through Steve. He does not have another AA in his starting five, so I think that Steve will probably end up with better numbers than Kent, because Wheaton is more balanced. But if Kent plays like Kent and Wheaton wins the CCIW, I think it's more of a formality than anything else.

Wheaton's offense runs through Kent Raymond every bit as much as Carthage's does through Djurickovic.  Does Wheaton have a better supporting cast?  Yes, because they have a productive low-post player in Wiele (I would take Fendley over Panner actually.).  But that doesn't mean the Thunder offense doesn't exclusively flow through Kent Raymond first.  I'd love to hear someone suggest to an opposing CCIW head coach that Wheaton's offense does not "run solely through Raymond."  Teams exclusively prepare their game plans vs Wheaton to try to contain Kent Raymond because he is absolutely the #1 focal point.

And I don't think I would trade BP for Fendley. Granted, I've only seen Fendly once. But BP is one of the best perimeter defenders in the CCIW. The biggest contribution he makes in my opinion is on the defensive end of the floor. For example, there have been two games this year (Loras and Calvin) where BP has shot rather poorly and yet the team has still won. And when he does score he usually does so in an unstoppable manner (i.e. Saturday vs. Hope).

Thunder/TQ

I believe the answer to the question of Fendley vs Panner comes down to "Exactly what are you looking for?"

Sean Fendley is a pure shooter who can likely shoot, particularly off the pass, as well as anyone in the league. He is deadly from anyplace on the floor, but is unsurpassed in hitting from the deep corners, especially from the left side. He has increased his strength tremendously since he entered the CCIW from high school. I'd say his strength has increased at about the same proportion that Andy Wiele of WC increased his. His foot speed has also increased as a by-product of his added strength, but he still can't be considered a burner. The added strength has also aided Sean as far as being able to get his shot off from even deeper than earlier in his career as well as when he is more closely defended. Defensively, he is average at best.

Ben Panner is the choice if you're looking for the better ball handler and passer/distributor of the basketball. He is quicker than Fendley, but not as strong. His quickness results in his being a better defender than Sean. He is not as consistent a shooter as Fendley. He is more of a streak shooter, cold one night and hot the next--or, as in the Wheaton game vs Hope Sat, cold one half and very hot the next. Overall, an above average shooter/scorer, but not quite in Fendley's class in that facet of the game.   

That is exactly how I would phrase the comparison between Panner and Fendley as well, AO.

[Titan Q]

Bob, I think there is a better way of stating what I assume ThunderMike was trying to say about Raymond's position within the Thunder squad versus Djurickovic's within Carthage's.  And certainly does have to do with your comment regarding supporting cast.

What's up in Baton Rouge?

Hey Jim...hope all is well.

The State Farm Marketing team I am a part of has people all over what we call our Central Zone (Missouri, Kansas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Louisiana).  I'm based out of Columbia, Mo., but lots of travel to meet with my reps in St. Louis, Kansas City, Tulsa, and Baton Rouge.  Thank goodness for the internet...last week I listened to Augustana/St. Ambrose from a hotel room in Tulsa and then IWU/Olivet Nazarene the next night.  I'll be listening to a lot of CCIW games online this year from home and the road.

Considering it is supposed to be 75 here in Baton Rouge today, I think it is safe to say these poor people down here are going to get their fill of me over the course of the next 3 months!

[omaha]

Add two more CCIW victories over D1 teams.  During the 1979-80 season North Park defeated Cal-Irvine 69-55 and San Diego 72-69.  It was San Diego's first season as a D1 team.