MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Titan Q]

CCIW OVERALL:    60-11 (.845)

CCIW team heavy favorite
1 Wheaton vs Mount St. Joseph, 12/29 (neutral)
2 Wheaton vs Wittenberg or Taylor, 12/30 (@ Witt)
3 Augustana vs Coe, 12/30
4 Wheaton @ Grinnell, 1/3
5 Illinois Wesleyan vs Illinois College, 1/3
6 Carthage vs Trinity International, 1/5
7 Millikin @ Knox, 1/19 - postponed from 12/18

CCIW team favorite
1 North Central @ Otterbein, 12/27
2 North Central vs Baldwin-Wallace or Thomas More, 12/28 (neutral)
3 Illinois Wesleyan vs St. Xavier, 12/29 (neutral)
4 Carthage vs St. Norbert or St. Scholastica, 12/30 (neutral)
5 Elmhurst @ Anderson, 1/3
6 Millikin vs York (NY), 1/3 (neutral)

CCIW team underdog
1 Carthage vs UW-Platteville, 12/29 (neutral)
2 IWU @ Northwood U., 12/30 (if IWU beats SXU)
3 North Park @ Valparaiso, 12/30
4 Millikin @ Christopher Newport, 1/4


7-0 in the first group, 0-4 in the last, and 4-2 in the middle would be 71-17 (.807).

Since Elmhurst lost to UW-Stevens Point on 12/13, the CCIW is on a 14-game winning streak.

[AndOne]

Augie fans---What do you think about Augie's non conference schedule? You have the up close, personal view that the rest of us don't. Augie has an exceptional record of having won the conference championship the last 3 yrs, and currently enjoys the #8 national ranking. Have they achieved this lofty ranking primarily based on their record over the last 3 years and a very weak non conference schedule this year, or is their #8 ranking deserved? Would appreciate your input, especially from our "regulars" like Dansand, Augiefan, Viking Blue, and Viking Mike, and any others.  

While I would love to give my expert opinion on Augustana, I would like this opportunity to remind all involved that Viking Blue refers to the conference's 5 time national champion Vikings.  Not the "other" ones.

Carry on.....
[/quote]

Sorry Blue! My bad! I was on the way out and was quickly scrolling through pages to obtain names and made a poor assumption in your case when I saw your screen name.

[dansand]

Augie fans---What do you think about Augie's non conference schedule? You have the up close, personal view that the rest of us don't. Augie has an exceptional record of having won the conference championship the last 3 yrs, and currently enjoys the #8 national ranking. Have they achieved this lofty ranking primarily based on their record over the last 3 years and a very weak non conference schedule this year, or is their #8 ranking deserved? Would appreciate your input, especially from our "regulars" like Dansand, Augiefan, Viking Blue, and Viking Mike, and any others.   

Speaking as a longtime voter in the poll, I will just add that, here in December, not many teams have "earned" their ranking.  Most rankings at this stage still have more to do more with 2007-08 results and preseason assumptions than actual 2008-09 season results.  Afterall, Wheaton doesn't "deserve" to be ranked #2 based on anything that has happened so far this year (they should be undefeated with their schedule)...most of the Thunder's current ranking has to do with last year and who returned. 

Augustana won one the nation's best conferences last year and took the eventual national champions to overtime in the NCAA tournament.  The Vikings returned all but one player from that team.  Despite two losses, I still think #8 is fair for now.  By late January, the polls sorts itself out.

I would agree with Q. At this point in the season, previous track record plays a big part in the rankings. That's why Millikin is still fighting its way up despite being 8-0 with one of the league's two best non-conference wins. Elmhurst's win Saturday (along with their respective results against LaCrosse) could, and probably should, move them ahead of Augie in the poll. Looking at last season, the Vikes were 9-2 (losses to UW-LaCrosse and #3 UW-SP) and ranked sixth going into the CCIW season. Based on the balance of the season, I think that ranking was justified, so I don't think #8 or #9 this year is out of line.

As far as this year's schedule, it looked much better at the start of the year than it has turned out. Obviously, no one expected pre-season #22 Chicago to be 0-10 and UW-Oshkosh is a bit down this year after averaging over 18 wins a season the past four. But you can only play who you play and I don't think anyone in the CCIW has exactly faced murderer's row thus far. That'll come once the conference starts.

[Thunder Dutch]

I am a little concerned about Wheaton's readiness for what will likely be a brutal CCIW slate. Wheaton's 8-0 record comes against teams with a combined record of 23-43. I see Elmhurst, IWU and Augie all playing much tougher opponents and being battle tested for the conference slate. Wheaton opens conference play with IWU, NPU and Augie so we will find out but I am worried they haven't really had a tough game so far. I am sure part of that is the fact that they have played well this season but I don't see them getting the benefit of a tough non conference slate (they scheduled teams that are traditionally very good but having off years) the way the other top teams have.

I've thought the same thing. Up until the last two games Wheaton had answered the doubts I had by their play. But the games against Webster and Wartburg have me concerned. This is not meant to defame those two teams, but honestly the Thunder should have won both of those games by 25 or more. I didn't see the Webster game, but that was the general feeling I got from the players. I was at the Wartburg game, and it was one of those wins that kind of felt like a loss because the overall team defense was quite poor. Wheaton needs to be a great defensive team by the time conference play starts, and they have shown flashes of being such a team (the Chicago game being an example). It might be unrealistic to expect such an effort every night, but giving up 76 points to Wartburg is not a good omen when teams like Augie and Elmhurst are waiting in the wings. Hopefully the tournament next week will be filled with great D by Wheaton, and maybe they can keep Grinnell below 100?

I was at parts of both games, and if I remember correctly, we were up pretty big either at half or soon after and Coach Harris basically pulled the starters for almost all of the second half. While this doesn't excuse poor defense necessarily, having players that usually don't play in Harris' short rotation play for a long amount of time would probably contribute to poor defense and losing points off the lead (because I'm pretty sure we were up by at least 25 in each game at one point - and we were missing Wiele in one of them). Whenever Harris is using just the 8-man rotation, wheaton has been playing really well, offensively and defensively.
Granted, the team as a whole may have slacked a bit during the last couple games, but this is just a theory.. We'll see soon enough..

[iwumichigander]

I would not be overly concerned by Wheaton's non-conference schedule.  As Q noted, four opponents with good historical resumes happen to have a down year. I think it more important Bill Harris has the opportunity to develop some non-starters in the non-conference schedule.  This team travels a lot compared to other CCIW teams.  It went fairly deep in the NCAA tournament last year.  The playing time Wheaton non-starters are getting right now is going to payoff at crunch time in the CCIW and in the NCAA tournament.  And, yes, I think Wheaton will be in tournament this season.

[thundermike11]

I am a little concerned about Wheaton's readiness for what will likely be a brutal CCIW slate. Wheaton's 8-0 record comes against teams with a combined record of 23-43. I see Elmhurst, IWU and Augie all playing much tougher opponents and being battle tested for the conference slate. Wheaton opens conference play with IWU, NPU and Augie so we will find out but I am worried they haven't really had a tough game so far. I am sure part of that is the fact that they have played well this season but I don't see them getting the benefit of a tough non conference slate (they scheduled teams that are traditionally very good but having off years) the way the other top teams have.

I've thought the same thing. Up until the last two games Wheaton had answered the doubts I had by their play. But the games against Webster and Wartburg have me concerned. This is not meant to defame those two teams, but honestly the Thunder should have won both of those games by 25 or more. I didn't see the Webster game, but that was the general feeling I got from the players. I was at the Wartburg game, and it was one of those wins that kind of felt like a loss because the overall team defense was quite poor. Wheaton needs to be a great defensive team by the time conference play starts, and they have shown flashes of being such a team (the Chicago game being an example). It might be unrealistic to expect such an effort every night, but giving up 76 points to Wartburg is not a good omen when teams like Augie and Elmhurst are waiting in the wings. Hopefully the tournament next week will be filled with great D by Wheaton, and maybe they can keep Grinnell below 100?

I was at parts of both games, and if I remember correctly, we were up pretty big either at half or soon after and Coach Harris basically pulled the starters for almost all of the second half. While this doesn't excuse poor defense necessarily, having players that usually don't play in Harris' short rotation play for a long amount of time would probably contribute to poor defense and losing points off the lead (because I'm pretty sure we were up by at least 25 in each game at one point - and we were missing Wiele in one of them). Whenever Harris is using just the 8-man rotation, wheaton has been playing really well, offensively and defensively.
Granted, the team as a whole may have slacked a bit during the last couple games, but this is just a theory.. We'll see soon enough..

That's not entirely true. In both games the starters played most of the way. In the Webster game none of the five "non-rotation" guys who played were in for more than 2 minutes. And I think the only reason Phil Carr and Tom Sovocool saw "extended minutes" (8 and 4 respectively) against Wartburg was because Andy Wiele did not play. And I don't think Wiele's absence is a good explanation either. It was the Knights' guards who hurt Wheaton, not the bigs. Jake Carwell, Tim McCrary, and Brad Smith played very well filling in for Wiele. My concern is that Wheaton is giving up more points than they should. Wartburg scored 48 points in the second half. Most of those were scored with Wheaton's normal rotation on the floor. Fortunately they had given themselves enough of a cushion, but that game felt more like Wartburg ran out of time to come back than anything else.

I think Wheaton will be fine, and to some degree I think it is natural to play down a little when playing lesser competition. And I again point to the Chicago game as an example of Wheaton playing almost perfect basketball. They need that kind of effort every night once January roles around.

One final note, I am not concerned that Wheaton didn't try to create a tough schedule, only that they may not be tested well enough for what certainly will be a killer conference schedule. You can't control how good other teams will be, I just am hoping Wheaton will be able to crank things up, beginning Jan. 7 when IWU comes to King Arena.

[Dennis_Prikkel]

Merry Christmas to all - hope to see you in the new year.

Dennis Prikkel

[usee]

I think we all know that Wheaton, IWU, Augie, Elmhurst, etc will play their toughest games starting in January. I just see those 3 playing at least 1-2 signature games that toughen them up for the CCIW slate. Wheaton is playing without Wiele now for who knows how long and in a couple of weeks they begin the conference slate against a team they were 0-fer 3 against last season. We all know how important it is to win at home during conference play and this year it is even more critical with the depth of the conference teams. Wheaton must protect their home floor in the conference schedule and hosting IWU and Augie in the first 7 days of CCIW play leaves no margin for error. I would feel a lot better if they are tested before that stretch begins. But so be it.

[Titan Q]

http://www.d2messageboard.com/showthread.php?t=11520


"I had a conversation today about facility upgrades just announced in Fayette for Upper Iowa. A person in the group said he sits on the Athletic Department's Fund Raising Committee for Carthage College in Kenosha, Wisconsin. He said they have been investigating and are planning on moving to D2 in two years. They want to finish some facility upgrades, i.e. new basketball arena, football stadium, locker rooms and general campus upgrades before taking the plung.

According to this person, CC currently has the largest athletic endowement of any D3 school in the country and wants to be fully funded in all sports they sponsor when they make the move.

Interesting..."

[Mr. Ypsi]

http://www.d2messageboard.com/showthread.php?t=11520


"I had a conversation today about facility upgrades just announced in Fayette for Upper Iowa. A person in the group said he sits on the Athletic Department's Fund Raising Committee for Carthage College in Kenosha, Wisconsin. He said they have been investigating and are planning on moving to D2 in two years. They want to finish some facility upgrades, i.e. new basketball arena, football stadium, locker rooms and general campus upgrades before taking the plung.

According to this person, CC currently has the largest athletic endowement of any D3 school in the country and wants to be fully funded in all sports they sponsor when they make the move.

Interesting..."

Having never before read d2messageboard, I have no idea as to the credibility or insider knowledge of the posters, but several of them discussed it as essentially a done-deal for 2010.  I now wonder if the rumors about Carroll ARE indeed as a replacement for Carthage at that time, in order to maintain an 8-school conference (which, as I've opined before, is the ideal size for both bball and fball).

[thundermike11]

http://www.d2messageboard.com/showthread.php?t=11520


"I had a conversation today about facility upgrades just announced in Fayette for Upper Iowa. A person in the group said he sits on the Athletic Department's Fund Raising Committee for Carthage College in Kenosha, Wisconsin. He said they have been investigating and are planning on moving to D2 in two years. They want to finish some facility upgrades, i.e. new basketball arena, football stadium, locker rooms and general campus upgrades before taking the plung.

According to this person, CC currently has the largest athletic endowement of any D3 school in the country and wants to be fully funded in all sports they sponsor when they make the move.

Interesting..."

What would Carthage benefit from making this move? Just curious

[Gregory Sager]

http://www.d2messageboard.com/showthread.php?t=11520


"I had a conversation today about facility upgrades just announced in Fayette for Upper Iowa. A person in the group said he sits on the Athletic Department's Fund Raising Committee for Carthage College in Kenosha, Wisconsin. He said they have been investigating and are planning on moving to D2 in two years. They want to finish some facility upgrades, i.e. new basketball arena, football stadium, locker rooms and general campus upgrades before taking the plung.

According to this person, CC currently has the largest athletic endowement of any D3 school in the country and wants to be fully funded in all sports they sponsor when they make the move.

Interesting..."

It's not implausible for Carthage to move to D2, but the "largest athletic endowment of any D3 school in the country" stuff is a bunch of hooey. Carthage has some generous givers who have allowed the school to dramatically upgrade athletic facilities over the past decade, but that's not the same thing as having an "athletic endowment" -- that's something that I've never heard of a D3 school having, much less Carthage having the biggest one. In terms of a regular endowment, Carthage is comparatively impoverished by CCIW standards; the school has something like $48m in its endowment (that's post-Wall-Street-crash, I think), which is down there with NPU at the bottom of the league in terms of endowment funds. Carthage is a tuition-driven school, which is reflected in the fact that the school's athletic teams put a big accent on recruiting numbers (the football team is a conspicuous example).

Money doesn't necessarily dictate whether or not a school moves from D3 to D2; Maryville (MO) has a smaller endowment than Carthage's, yet it is making the move. But the people making those comments on the D2 board don't appear to be very well-informed about Carthage.

[Pat Coleman]

http://www.d2messageboard.com/showpost.php?p=262792&postcount=45

I do read occasionally, just to see what's going on in Division II, and this topic caught my eye, for obvious reasons.

Carthage people tell me there is no truth to this rumor and they don't even have an athletic endowment. (In fact, I think such things are not even permitted in Division III, but I am not 100% sure.)

I do think there will continue to be schools that move from Division III to Division II, such as Lincoln (Pa.), Lake Erie, Chowan and (no football) Chestnut Hill have in recent years. I'd be surprised if Carthage were one of them but they have certainly upgraded their facility in recent years.

- Pat Coleman
D3football.com

[sac]

What would Carthage benefit from making this move? Just curious

From a purely athletics point of view they would be, I believe, just the second D2 school in Wisconsin (UW Parkside the other) and 1 of only a few in the area.  Lewis and Quincy the others that I can think of off the top of my head.

[Viking Blue]

After having my brains beat in by Carthage for four years on the baseball field, I would have to say this is a direction some of the schools in Wisconsin should consider.

Think about this:  to my knowledge (unless things have changed recently) there are NO Division 1 baseball teams in the entire state.  Thus, it's easy to conclude that several D1 caliber players are playing D3 baseball (as was previously mentioned, only 1 other D2 school in the state).  And that would partially explain the complete dominance some of those schools have had in D3 baseball over the years.

And yes, this is a basketball page, but I thought it could be expanded a bit for this particular discussion.