MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[usee]

The silence in King arena was deafening when Raymond went down as his injury may change the D3 landscape the rest of the way, or at a minimum it may change the CCIW race over the next couple of weeks. I am not as optimistic as some. He landed from a full jump on the ankle and crumpled very awkwardly in a lot of pain. He was carried off the floor to the locker room by teammates. I am sure there will be Xrays today and Wheaton fans can only hope its not broken, which is a distinct possibility given the force of the injury. The prognosis could be anything from done for the year to at least a couple of weeks. Either way the door is open for the rest of the conference to close ground.

Wiele is playing but I wouldn't declare him "back". We really have to see how he responds to his first action and it was clear he was not in game shape as he was dragging toward the end of the game. It will still take some time for him to be "back".

The millikin game is a trap game for the Thunder. I would expect it to be very close and will be difficult for Wheaton to pull out a win. The other seniors will have to step up emotionally and try to keep the team playing at a very high level without Raymond and a full strength Wiele.

There is a lot of basketball yet to be played and things just got a lot more interesting.

[Late nite]

Augie was beaten the last 2 ballgames because Carthage and Wheaton possess something that the Vikes lack---A Prime Time Player---Someone who can take over a game and get to the foul line, if needed---I also thought that the interior passing  that Wheaton showed in the 2nd half down the stretch vs the vaunted Augie defense was impressive---It led to some crucial layups and easy shots everytime Augie started to make a run

[andrewmp]

It was right after he scored a wide open lay up, and it didn't make sense that he would just be on the ground hurt all by himself.  My initial reaction was that it could have been a cheap shot, because things had gotten rather physical at that point.  It also didn't look like an ankle injury at first.  Ankles are a lot more common to bust just stepping the wrong way.  Just a few minutes before, bodies were flying all over the court in a classic "who wants this more" scene.  I am pretty sure more than half of the players were on the floor, and one of the Augie players' head hit one of the bottom steps at their end.  A very physical game.

It wasn't really a wide open layup--Kent grabbed an offensive board and went back up, stepping on Alex Washington's foot on his way down after shooting the layup and rolled his ankle. It wasn't a cheap shot at all, just one of those freak things.

Actually it was an open layup off an inbounds play. I can't say for sure whether he landed on Alex's foot or not, but I didn't think so at the time. It looked to me at first, also, like it was his knee, but that's why I'm not doctor.

I should have been more clear.  My reaction was that it could have been a cheap shot, maybe someone putting a little push in from behind because they got there late.  I was not saying that I thought an Augie player was trying to hurt him, just that they may have been unnecessarily physical after the play was done.  That is when I thought it was a knee as well.  Like I said, with an ankle injury, it could happen a number of ways, and landing on someone else's foot is a common occurence.  When I saw the ankle icing, I dismissed the thought that it might have been a cheap shot and was relieved that it was not a busted ACL.
I had a sprain once where I was jumping out to defend a shot and landed wrong.  The doctors thought that I had broken it, but I had only sprained it.  It was still a week and a half on crutches, and 3 weeks before I was (unwisely) playing again.
If he thought it was his knee, that would make me think that it is a high ankle sprain.  Usually those take longer to come back from.

[Gregory Sager]

Augie was beaten the last 2 ballgames because Carthage and Wheaton possess something that the Vikes lack---A Prime Time Player---Someone who can take over a game and get to the foul line, if needed

I have to say that I was a bit surprised that Brett Wessels was named a fourth-team All-American in the preseason. Don't get me wrong; Wessels is a very good player, and Augie obviously missed him while he was out with an ankle injury at the start of the season. But he's not the "prime time player" of whom Late nite speaks, and he's definitely not within shouting distance of Steve Djurickovic or Kent Raymond in terms of his ability to take over a game. Wessels averages 10.9 ppg this season, and while a lot of that relatively low figure has to do with Giovanine's system and his deep rotation, some of it has to do with Wessels as well. He's only shooting .410 from the field and a very poor .235 (8-34) from beyond the arc. And he's only gotten to the FT line 46 times, which works out to about three and a half free-throws per game. He isn't even leading the team in shots taken; Justin Bertrand is.

The thing is, Wessels is not that far off of his percentage stats from last season. His counting stats are off; he was scoring a lot more last year with Delp out, averaging 14.6 ppg. But he only shot .369 from the field and .346 from beyond the arc in 2007-08, numbers that are pretty suspect for an All-American candidate. Plus, he got to the line about four and a half times per game last year, which is not indicative of the sort of go-to player of whom Late nite speaks.

Wessels is solid, and he's an immense asset to Augie at both ends of the floor. I certainly would have loved to seen him wear a North Park uniform, and I know that Paul Brenegan would have as well. There isn't a team in the CCIW (or anywhere in D3, I suspect) that couldn't make great use of Brett Wessels. But I think that preseason expectations of him by those who put together that All-American team might've been a little misplaced. He's not Drew Carstens or Rick Harrigan. He's one more very good player on a team that has several very good players but no great players.

[79jaybird]

I hope Raymond's injury is not serious and he can get back up & running here soon.

Greg- I was wondering why Williams did not play much last night.  I like Russell and the way he plays the game. He plays hard, drives to the bucket, and can hit that outside shot.  He's very promising. I  think he could use a little muscle build up and get a little bigger.

While it's a win for Elmhurst, it is certainly not an eye opener as the Bluejays at times looked very sloppy.  Burks stepped up and played to his potential.  He (along with the rest of the Jays) had been in a funk.

Overall, I think if Elmhurst is going to be able to battle back and get into the top 3 again,  they need to play better, smarter, and try to establish some consistency which has been lacking since the Wash U game.  

[andrewmp]

The millikin game is a trap game for the Thunder. I would expect it to be very close and will be difficult for Wheaton to pull out a win. The other seniors will have to step up emotionally and try to keep the team playing at a very high level without Raymond and a full strength Wiele.

There is a lot of basketball yet to be played and things just got a lot more interesting.

Millikin beating Elmhurst in double OT would make this less of a trap game than normally it is, especially if they pull the upset over NCC.  I wouldn't be surprised to Coach Harris and many of the players watching the game tonight, as it is close by and gives them a look at two teams that they have coming up, helping them prepare more for them.  It is a rare opportunity that I would take full advantage off if I were on the team.

[AndOne]

great game at king tonight...

what do people think about Wheaton's chances Saturday at Millikin? Millikin is not a bad team at all, and Wheaton will definitely be without Kent... We'll have Wiele completely back though, which is nice, and if we continue playing good defense and making good decisions, I think we can take it... but I don't know Millikin's team well enough to judge that

in a similar vein, what about Carthage? it's home, and we did beat them twice last year.. Panner will do a great job on Stevie D as he did last year, but it will be really close without Kent.

thoughts

Thunder--

Its not just you. Nobody really knows Millikin very well, because there aren't any Millikin posters active to keep us informed about the makeup and progress of the team.

One thing about Millikin is that they were supposed to play at North Central tonight but the game was postponed until tomorrow (Thurs) night, I believe at the request of Millikin as they were experiencing even worse weather than in the Naperville/NCC area. Now they face the prospect of playing Wheaton after a fairly long bus ride tomorrow night, and playing WC 2 days later, while Wheaton will have an extra day of rest.

Lastly, they have more to worry about than Wheaton, as tomorrow they face a North Central team thats firing on all cylinders, and coming off an impressive road win over the #19 rated team in the country.

+1,

You seem to have something against Wheaton,  you've qualified the last two statements concerning Raymond's 2000 point acheivement with a capitalized "however" and now you are qualifying a Wheaton victory in Decatur because the Big Blue play your beloved redbirds Thursday night and have to "endure" a bus ride home with 1 less day to recover from it.  Wheaton doesn't have an "extra" day as you put it, it's the regular time off.  Milikin has 1 less day. It might be an issue if they were coming to Wheaton on Saturday.  Wheaton has a heck of lot more to overcome than Milikin, not even mentioning the 3+ hour bus ride.  So thanks again for diminishing any type of effort Wheaton might put out Saturday if they do in fact win, your efforts are appreciated and noticed.

I didn't read AO's posts that way at all. He made a great point about the pre-post 3pt line, and I think in his description above he was trying to say Millikin has it tough as they have to ride to Naperville today, play a tough NCC team in the hangar, drive 3 hrs home tonight and only get a day really before having to face Wheaton. The Thunder drive down on Saturday not having to worry about classes and have a full 2 days rest before the Millikin contest. There is no opinion in here, just facts.

I agree with USee on this one. The whole 3-pt line thing is a common thing to bring up at any level of basketball when scoring records are broken by current players. It's not a knock on their accomplishments (at least I don't think that's what AO's intent was), but just stating the fact that the three point shot allows for a player to potentially score more points--especially a player like Raymond who takes a fair portion of threes.

Usee, Thunder, & bgbully----

The intent of my post was exactly as Usee & Thunder interpreted it. 
I was not knocking either Kent Raymond or Wheaton in any way, shape, or form. I was merely pointing out that it would be harder for today's players to match older scoring records if the 3 point shot would have been around when the older players were active. I believe Greg Sager also agreed with this point.
As far as whatever barrier Millikin may present to WC on Sat, Thunder was correct in that, again, I was not knocking WC down, but only pointing out that they may have a slightly less difficult time with Millikin that would ordinarily be expected because of Millikin's added "burden" of having their trip to North Central postponed an extra day, which leaves them 1 less day to effectively prepare for Wheaton. And of course, part, perhaps a big part, of the hurdle Millikin faces vs Wheaton has now been lessened by Raymond's injury.

[AndOne]

Augie's 2-2 in the league now. The same record they had last season after the first two weeks. We'll see whether they can finish as strong as they did a year ago. A bit of a statistical oddity is that Bryant Voiles became the ninth Viking to lead them in scoring this year. He gave them a nice lift off the bench with 14 points.

Dan--

Good info about Voiles being the 9th player to lead AC in scoring this season.
As if the Vikings don't give opponents enough problems, now teams may have yet another weapon to prepare for.

[wheels81]

As UC states "I didn't read AO's posts that way at all. He made a great point about the pre-post 3pt line, and I think in his description above he was trying to say Millikin has it tough as they have to ride to Naperville today, play a tough NCC team in the hangar, drive 3 hrs home tonight and only get a day really before having to face Wheaton. The Thunder drive down on Saturday not having to worry about classes and have a full 2 days rest before the Millikin contest. There is no opinion in here, just facts."

Ok the facts is the facts but spin is spin and AO's spin seems to be to qualify Wheaton positives with a "but or "however".  THe sugar coat that AO puts on his "medicine" is "he's a great player, good team..etc.." Does that make his statement more valid because he offers an "acknowledgement" to Kent's accomplishments?
What about the early era 3 point line before it was moved back to the one they had until this year.  Now it's back farther.........Do they disqualify or asterisk Tiger Woods wins now that they have better clubs and balls?  What about the more lively baseball of the McGuire/Sosa era?
Raymond has 224 more points as a result of shooting 3 point baskets.  Let's discount his total and then when he does "actually" does score 2000 points we will laud his accomplishment then.  Oh wait maybe we can say he played with leather shoes as opposed to the canvas "Chuck Taylors",  I'm sure the ball is made with different materials as well.....etc
I would understand the qualifications posted but if it was so easy to do in only 3 1/3 years why hasn't there been streams of players doing it since the 86-87 era.  It seems like his record would have been obliterated the next year.  

"I believe Greg Sager also agreed with this point."  Oh sure bring in another "hater" to back you up .  No good plan to bring in a "Hugo Chavez" to support a "Vladimir Putin".

Chat rooms have no tone other than capitalization or bold face so when you capitalized "however" i took it to be just that an emphatic point.
Usee seems to be a nice guy and I agree with him 99.5% of the time but I'm sorry if I was a little more sensitive to this matter.  I'm done.  bring on the silk shorts and 2 handed set shots lets go

[AndOne]

Nick Williams at his best, presents huge problems for most defenders. I had him tabbed as a very likely FIRST team all-conference member this season. However, Mr. Williams is clearly not himself. He seems detached and lacking in intensity. He didn't even start tonight

Greg- I was wondering why Williams did not play much last night.

I opined the above about Nick Williams after observing him in NPU's game with North Central.

Greg--and anyone else-----Does Williams seem rather "out of it" to you? If so, any opinion as to whats got him shaken, and any signs he'll emerge from the funk soon?

[usee]

Usee seems to be a nice guy and I agree with him 99.5% of the time but I'm sorry if I was a little more sensitive to this matter.  

You obviously don't read all of my posts!  8)

[AndOne]

Bg-----

As you say "spin is spin" but I assure you I was not trying to "spin" anything, but rather point out facts which seemed evident.

As far as my putting a "sugar coat" on my "medicine" I think the majority of other posters on here will tell you that I am one of the least likely posters to "sugarcoat" much of anything I write. Actually, I probably should do more sugarcoating as telling it like it is often gets me in trouble. 

[Dennis_Prikkel]

Thanks all to the excellent recaps on the Wheaton / Augie game.

My observations:

1- My internet connection to Real Audio kept clicking in and out, and when Raymond got hurt it was so quiet that I thought I had lost the stream again.  The announcers were in stunned silence, too.

2- Any good coach will tell you that in a close game the first five minutes of the second half are key.  Wheaton exploded, Augie imploded.  Not only was Raymond making "Circus" shots and carrying his team offensively on his back, but the Crusaders stepped up their team defensive intensity as well, and I don't think Augie expected that, or recovered from that - there were a lot of Vi-Queen turnovers in those first five minutes.

3- Andy Wiele was impressive in the 2nd half after a month layoff.

4- One of the things that makes Augie so tough to come back on late in the game when they have the lead, is their achilles heal when they are on the wrong end of a lead in the final five minutes - no go to guy - and too much "team" basketball.  No one steps forward.  By the time Jordan Delp finally accepted that mantle, it was too late.

5- Wheaton's game at Millikin this Saturday is their biggest game of the season.  This will be their first contest of the season without their "Go To" All-American guy.  How well the other players are able to overcome that psychologically will determine their success until when and if Raymond is able to return to his All-American form.

6- Wheaton's placed some distance between themselves and their pre-season contender competition and they've already between their closest rivals, IWU and Augie, at home, but now their depth and how well they come together will deterimine if they can keep it going.  Road games await and the Crusaders are notorius for not bringing their fans along.

dgp

[Gregory Sager]

"I believe Greg Sager also agreed with this point."  Oh sure bring in another "hater" to back you up .  No good plan to bring in a "Hugo Chavez" to support a "Vladimir Putin".

Heck, on a day like today that not even a polar bear could enjoy, I would love to be the dictator of Venezuela. Beautiful women, tropical weather, tasty food ... what's not to like?

Now, if you had compared me to Putin and AO to Chavez, I'm afraid that I'd have to rhetorically smack you upside the head, Bully.

Nick Williams at his best, presents huge problems for most defenders. I had him tabbed as a very likely FIRST team all-conference member this season. However, Mr. Williams is clearly not himself. He seems detached and lacking in intensity. He didn't even start tonight

Greg- I was wondering why Williams did not play much last night.

I opined the above about Nick Williams after observing him in NPU's game with North Central.

Greg--and anyone else-----Does Williams seem rather "out of it" to you? If so, any opinion as to whats got him shaken, and any signs he'll emerge from the funk soon?

I don't think that Nick is "out of it" at all -- and I really haven't observed any such change in him all season long. And that's essentially the problem. He could be a dominant player in this league, but "could be" and "is" are a long ways apart. His problem last season was consistency, and that's his problem again this season. He's on one night and off the next, or he plays with intensity at both ends of the floor for five minutes and then disappears for the next ten.

Paul Brenegan gets frustrated with him, and I think that he's tried just about every motivational method available to get through to Nick and spur him on to reach his potential, with last night's second-half benching being another example. But it's an internal matter, in that nothing is really going to change until Nick decides to change it himself. My hope is that he turns out to be another Darius Gant, another wildly inconsistent player who suddenly had that internal light switch turn on that made him an outstanding CCIW talent who was maximizing his potential and carrying his team on his back when necessary. What I don't hope is that it takes Nick until halfway through his senior year for that light switch to turn on, the way that it did for Gant.

To be fair to Nick, though, he's playing on a team in which everyone else (except for reserve C/PF Mike Ventura) is either a sophomore or a freshman, and in which nobody else (including Ventura) has anything close to the amount of accumulated career court time that he has. In other words, Nick's inconsistency is magnified by the fact that the youth of Ro Russell, Clayton Cahill, Phil Schniedermeier, Kendall Greer, etc., makes them inconsistent as well. 

[fcnews]

You may want to check out my last post on the SLIAC Chat. Is this same thing happening in the states of the CCIW?