MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Viking Mike]

New Div 3 poll is out!

Interesting is the fact that Augie drops 4 spots after beating N.C. by 17 and losing to the #1 Thunder by 8 at King Arena.
I don't agree with the No.15 ranking, but I also realize pollsters are looking at win-loss records and not necessarily looking at WHO teams like Augie have lost to.  (#1 Wheaton and #3 Wash U. for the record)  Disappointing road losses to LaCrosse and Carthage have obviously helped in Augie's descent.   Fortunately this poll, while enjoyable to follow, is not a true indicator of where my beloved Vikings may end up.  I am still optimistic that Augie will continue to improve and begin to flex their muscles as the season goes on.  If they continue to play like they did on Saturday against North Central,  they will be tough for anyone to beat!  I like Giovannine's move to start Wessels in place of Delp.  While Delp is a gamer and can hit the big shot, Wessels does so many little things that helps in the team's success.  I looking forward to a big finish for the Vikes and another shot in the NCAA's!!!

[titan2000]

Greg....I'm sorry, but I'm not buying the facilities gap argument for North Park anymore.

First of all, as a 1999 graduate of North Park, I am well aware of what a facilities gap is.  in the 1998-99 campaign, an observer coming to Foster and Kedzie might witness a baseball player taking swings in a 30-foot cage on the Crackerbox stage in lighting better suited for a billiards hall, an indoor track team running "sprints" in a carpeted hallway while dodging students coming out of John Hjelm's Personal Fitness class, or a basketball player lifting weights on machines acquired from the Superior Spring company at Foster and Elston in a dungeon-like atmosphere.  As an athlete, I envied the facilities I only had the opportunity to see on road trips.

Remarkaby, someone finally decided that the joke was on North Park, and the facilities were improved vastly.  A high school player of mine was being recruited to play football and baseball last year at North Park, along with a couple of other CCIW schools.  You know what excited him the most about NP?  The FACILITIES.  Namely, the Holmgren Athletic Center, which while unique in its layout, is not paralleled by ANY school in the CCIW for preparation and practice purposes.

You're arguing apples and oranges, VB. The upgrade to Holmgren Athletic Complex and the construction of the Helwig Recreation Center have indeed leveled the playing field to a great degree for the NPU football and baseball programs. However, we're not talking about football and baseball. I said that the facilities gap was affecting the men's basketball team, because that's what Bob and I were talking about. His initial point was that the NPU men's basketball head coaching position was not a "primo D3 job," and this was my response:

I'm certainly not offended, Bob, because I think that you're essentially right. I would only change what you said to read, "NPU ain't exactly a primo CCIW job." North Park's resources are not bottom-of-the-scale when you look at D3 as a whole, but in terms of the league the Park lags behind in facilities. That's acutely apparent in men's basketball more than the other sports, because the crackerbox is so tiny and antiquated. A modern and spacious gym really does make a tremendous difference when it comes to recruiting, and it also conveys the impression to everyone who enters it that the school cares about fielding a winning basketball program.

Holmgren Athletic Complex's upgrade doesn't make one iota of difference for the NPU men's basketball team, because the team doesn't do anything at that facility except sell chips and pop at the refreshment stand during Vikings football games. And while Helwig is a nice addition from the basketball perspective, in that it has vastly better weight-training facilities for the players and two full-sized basketball courts that allow the team to practice at the same time every day rather than rotating shifts with the women's basketball team in the crackerbox, those are minor and relatively inconspicuous improvements to the basketball program's profile. It's the gym itself in which the team plays (and conducts half of its practices) that matters in the eyes of the general public, and in the eyes of the prospects that are being recruited by North Park. And because that gym is so badly outdated and inadequate, NPU is definitely behind its competitors and suffers from a facilities gap in that one particular sport.

I have a hard time feeling "bad" for the basketball team that has always had the luxury of taking coach buses to away games and plays in front of the largest crowds of any team at North Park.  So long as the gym floor is clean (check), fairly new (check), and the lights work (check), how is having fancy seats going to make anyone want to go to North Park more.

Now you truly sound more like an NPU baseball player than the NPU public address announcer. I agree that the basketball team gets more attention than other sports at North Park (except for men's soccer, but I sense that neither you nor I want to go down that road), but it's all relative. The fact that the men's basketball team travels by coach rather than by minivans really doesn't add up to anything in terms of recruiting; I doubt that any prospects are even made aware of that fact, and most of NPU's recruiting competitors travel by coach as well. And NPU's basketball crowds, while healthy in comparison to the school's other sports, aren't any bigger than those of the teams with which the Park usually competes on the recruiting trail (with a few exceptions, such as Benedictine and Lake Forest).

Remember, this isn't about how the NPU men's basketball team compares to the school's other teams in terms of facilities and/or support. This is about how the NPU men's basketball team compares to its basketball competitors from other schools. And it suffers in that comparison as far as the gym is concerned. I've heard it from opposing fans. I've heard it from opposing players. I've heard it from opposing coaches who keep wondering when NPU is going to put the money together to build a new gym. As longtime Vikings fan, former member of the NPU Board of Trustees, and occasional CCIW Chat poster Omaha put it, the crackerbox was outdated even when it was newly built back in 1957. Forget the new and well-kept floor and the fact that the school keeps paying the bills for the lights; the fact of the matter is that prospects are turned off by the size and age of the gym (as well as that ridiculous eyesore and waste of space at the east end called a stage, about which Rob Berki once trenchantly commented that it reminded him nostalgically of his days playing basketball for his middle school). Whether you or I think that the gym's aesthetics are important doesn't matter. The fact is that it does matter to a lot of prospects.

Fact is, North Park recruits in the middle of a basketball hotbed....the city of Chicago!  Don't tell me that other CCIW schools wouldn't love to have such a gold mine of talent right at their fingertips.  Bring a kid from Roosevelt, or Foreman, or Amundsen, or even Lane Tech into North Park's gym, and you would think that kid is seeing the United Center for the first time.

Agreed, but the issue is this: Can the kid from Roosevelt or Foreman or Amundsen academically qualify for, or economically support, a North Park education? In most cases, the answer is no. The vast majority of good Public League players that don't get basketball scholarships are not feasible NPU prospects because they don't have either the grades or the test scores (or both) to get into North Park. The pool is drastically narrowed down to the better student-athletes at the more academically high-end Chicago public schools such as Morgan Park (Jay Alexander's alma mater), Lincoln Park (Jason Gordon's alma mater), and Von Steuben (Lewis Wilson's alma mater). And many of the city's academically superior public schools, such as Northside Prep, Jones Prep, and Payton, rarely turn out CCIW-quality basketball prospects.

This carries over into other sports, too. The NPU baseball team will get the occasional kid from Clemente or Lane Tech who can handle the schoolwork and the tuition, but even in those cases a lot of the kids have to go the juco route first. NPU football coach Scott Pethtel won't even look at Public League players anymore, because he's been burned too many times by their inability to stay academically eligible at North Park.

Another problem is the fact that most city kids are completely uncoached in terms of basketball technique and strategy. They don't have the money to afford summer basketball camps like the suburban kids, and they don't attend junior highs and high schools that have large coaching staffs or multiple teams for every grade. Heck, some junior highs and grammar schools in the Chicago public school system don't even have basketball teams, because there's nobody to coach them. As I write this, I'm sitting a block away from a K-8 Chicago public grammar school, McPherson Elementary, that doesn't have a basketball team -- not even for the seventh- and eighth-graders -- because they lack a coach. A guy from my church went over to McPherson the other day and volunteered to create and coach a basketball team for the seventh- and eighth-graders, and the principal practically leaped over her desk and hugged him. A lot of Chicago high school teams reflect this ad hoc process as well; too many Public League coaches simply roll the ball out onto the floor and let their kids play street ball. It's not that Chicago kids don't want to play organized and disciplined ball, or that they're incapable of playing organized and disciplined ball; they simply don't know how to do it, because nobody's ever instructed them. That's why their technique and halfcourt sets awareness tends to lag so far behind their basic skills and their athleticism when they get to college. Over the years, NPU coaches have had to do a certain amount of remedial teaching of their city-bred players in the nuances of organized basketball that other coaches around the league haven't had to do.

In other words ... yeah, the school's urban location is an advantage in some respects as far as the basketball team is concerned. But that advantage is a lot more circumscribed than people think, and of course it's canceled out to some degree by the same problem that other NPU coaches have -- the problem of luring suburban kids to come to attend school in the big, bad, noisy, dangerous city.

I think that Paul Brenegan and his staff have hit upon the proper way to harness the advantage of the school's urban location while at the same time ensuring that they're not wasting their time pursuing kids who are incapable of handling NPU's classroom demands: They recruit the Chicago Catholic League heavily. That's a good basketball league, one of the state's best, and the kids that go to CCL schools tend to be both better coached and better academically suited to handle NPU. North Park might be the only evangelical Protestant college or university in the country whose basketball team can recite the "Hail Mary" in unison.

I agree with you that accountability is accountability, and that Paul Brenegan has to be held responsible for wins and losses just like any other coach. Institutional disadvantages are not get-out-of-jail-free cards; I think that NPU is capable of establishing a successful CCIW men's basketball program, and that Brenegan (and any other coach the school might hire for that sport) has to be held to that standard. But you and I are in agreement that he's a good coach, and that he's made progress -- and I also think that you and I agree that calling for his head in the midst of a difficult and aberrational season, in which a lot of things beyond his control have gone wrong, is precipitous and unwarranted.

There went 10 minutes of my life. 

[Gregory Sager]

I'm on the payroll? In that case, where is NPU sending my checks? I demand some answers!

* * *

Thanks for the background on CCIW gyms, Omaha. Very informative.

* * *

There went 10 minutes of my life. 

Step 1: Click on CCIW Chat and scroll downward.
Step 2: Notice length of post.
Step 3: Decline to read said post.
Step 4: Save ten minutes of your life.

[usee]

from the Millikin website:


The Millikin men's basketball team completed its nonconference schedule with a 71-67 win at Knox College.

Millikin's top scorer was Corey Mitchell with 17 points. Robert Burton and Joscar Denby each had 13 points. Tunde Ogunleye was also in double figures with 12 points.

Millikin is now 11-4 on the year and will be back in action on Wednesday, January 21 at Augustana College.

[Pat Coleman]

I also realize pollsters are looking at win-loss records and not necessarily looking at WHO teams like Augie have lost to.  

Disappointing road losses to LaCrosse and Carthage have obviously helped in Augie's descent.

Not sure I need to say anything more here.

[AndOne]

New Div 3 poll is out!

Interesting is the fact that Augie drops 4 spots after beating N.C. by 17 and losing to the #1 Thunder by 8 at King Arena.
I don't agree with the No.15 ranking, but I also realize pollsters are looking at win-loss records and not necessarily looking at WHO teams like Augie have lost to.  (#1 Wheaton and #3 Wash U. for the record)  Disappointing road losses to LaCrosse and Carthage have obviously helped in Augie's descent.   Fortunately this poll, while enjoyable to follow, is not a true indicator of where my beloved Vikings may end up.  I am still optimistic that Augie will continue to improve and begin to flex their muscles as the season goes on.  If they continue to play like they did on Saturday against North Central,  they will be tough for anyone to beat!  I like Giovannine's move to start Wessels in place of Delp.  While Delp is a gamer and can hit the big shot, Wessels does so many little things that helps in the team's success.  I looking forward to a big finish for the Vikes and another shot in the NCAA's!!!

Viking---

Not sure about your theory--

If your assumption that pollsters are looking (mainly) at won-lost records is correct, then how do you explain the fact that there are 9 teams with fewer losses than Augie, who are ranked below the Vikings. Augie is getting some credit for something. Vikings must be getting credit for their "good losses." Also, while many would argue that there is no such thing as a bad win, I feel Augie has
some "bad wins" which should have been, and likely were, taken into consideration.
What do I mean by "bad wins?' For instance--Simpson, Chicago, Knox, MacMurray, & Beloit have a combined record of 18-71. You can't get much worse that that!
So, if you feel they should get "credit" for losing to Wheaton and Wash U, it seems fair that they should get a "debit" for playing teams such as those mentioned above.
Thoughts?

[Dennis_Prikkel]

Titan 2000

"There went 10 minutes of my life."

GS- has written this same excuse missive at least a dozen times, everytime someone harps about the bad coaching at North Park.  At this point his "Justification by nullification" novella loses a lot of zing in its constant regurgitation.

The "I can't wait until these guys are seniors" and "I love this freshman class" mantra loses its luster after the fifth or sixth recitation.

Hollow statements, no matter how many times you recite them, are still hollow.

Sort of like an infamous propaganda minister - trying to get us to accept the "Big Lie".  If you say it enough times - oh yeah - its still a lie.

Yada, Yada, Yada - They're still housing blimbs at the Naval Air Station in Lindhurst, New Jersey, and that long hot air missive could float them all.

DGP

[Late nite]

New Div 3 poll is out!

Interesting is the fact that Augie drops 4 spots after beating N.C. by 17 and losing to the #1 Thunder by 8 at King Arena.
I don't agree with the No.15 ranking, but I also realize pollsters are looking at win-loss records and not necessarily looking at WHO teams like Augie have lost to.  (#1 Wheaton and #3 Wash U. for the record)  Disappointing road losses to LaCrosse and Carthage have obviously helped in Augie's descent.   Fortunately this poll, while enjoyable to follow, is not a true indicator of where my beloved Vikings may end up.  I am still optimistic that Augie will continue to improve and begin to flex their muscles as the season goes on.  If they continue to play like they did on Saturday against North Central,  they will be tough for anyone to beat!  I like Giovannine's move to start Wessels in place of Delp.  While Delp is a gamer and can hit the big shot, Wessels does so many little things that helps in the team's success.  I looking forward to a big finish for the Vikes and another shot in the NCAA's!!!

Viking---

Not sure about your theory--

If your assumption that pollsters are looking (mainly) at won-lost records is correct, then how do you explain the fact that there are 9 teams with fewer losses than Augie, who are ranked below the Vikings. Augie is getting some credit for something. Vikings must be getting credit for their "good losses." Also, while many would argue that there is no such thing as a bad win, I feel Augie has
some "bad wins" which should have been, and likely were, taken into consideration.
What do I mean by "bad wins?' For instance--Simpson, Chicago, Knox, MacMurray, & Beloit have a combined record of 18-71. You can't get much worse that that!
So, if you feel they should get "credit" for losing to Wheaton and Wash U, it seems fair that they should get a "debit" for playing teams such as those mentioned above.
Thoughts?

This is your 2nd reference to the quality of opponent that Augie has faced this year---As others have stated before, "you can only play the schedule that is given to you"---As a member of one of the top 2 conferences in the country, ALL CCIW schools are very competitive---Because of the strength of their programs, ALL will have a pretty good share of "weak opponents" (see, MacMurray, Lake Forest, Otterbein for your beloved Cards)---Most of the other leagues cannot match up---All this discussion of rankings is silly because they will continue to change on a weekly basis---The league is just too balanced

[Thunder Dutch]

Any thoughts on the Wheaton-Carthage game? With Kent Wheaton would be huge favorites, but what about now?

Will Panner be guarding Steve D? While he'll get his points for sure, he did "only" score 18 and 20 against us last year... If we play good defense and stop their shooters, will Wiele be able to tear it up inside and on the boards?

[andrewmp]

Any thoughts on the Wheaton-Carthage game? With Kent Wheaton would be huge favorites, but what about now?

Will Panner be guarding Steve D? While he'll get his points for sure, he did "only" score 18 and 20 against us last year... If we play good defense and stop their shooters, will Wiele be able to tear it up inside and on the boards?

I think this game will largely depend upon Wiele.  Will he play like he is capable of playing, putting up a 20/10 game, or will he still show some rust, on the offensive end, like he did in the first half against Augie, and, it appears, against Millikin?  He is a huge mismatch for anyone on Carthage's roster.  If they double him, McCrary can hit the open 10 footer, or one of the guards should be able to knock down some shots.

Based on what I have heard recently, I have bit more hope that Raymond will be back before the conference tournament.  However, I have a feeling that even if he is ready to go earlier than hoped for, they might hold him out if he isn't needed to get into the conference tournament.  One of the things to be aware of with ankles is the likelyhood of reinjuring them when coming back.  At this pint, being 4-0 and undefeated overall, he is not needed for post-season aspirations.  However, if in 2 weeks Wheaton is 4-4 (a very real possibility in the CCIW, especially looking at their next 4 games), they may be looking to get Raymond back as soon as possible. 

[markerickson]

Wheaton's front line should be able to dominate the Redmen.

Personally, I like North Park's gym.  Spectators are close to the action. Thus, the chants and jeers can be heard, especially when the gym (sadly) is 60% full in the three sections where the home team's fans sit.  However, the refs never called Stevie Nickelback for his continuous left-arm hooks as he drove to the basket despite people barking at the refs to call a foul....even one lousy foul.  The refs didn't respond to the NP players who also complained about hooking.

[AndOne]

New Div 3 poll is out!

Interesting is the fact that Augie drops 4 spots after beating N.C. by 17 and losing to the #1 Thunder by 8 at King Arena.
I don't agree with the No.15 ranking, but I also realize pollsters are looking at win-loss records and not necessarily looking at WHO teams like Augie have lost to.  (#1 Wheaton and #3 Wash U. for the record)  Disappointing road losses to LaCrosse and Carthage have obviously helped in Augie's descent.   Fortunately this poll, while enjoyable to follow, is not a true indicator of where my beloved Vikings may end up.  I am still optimistic that Augie will continue to improve and begin to flex their muscles as the season goes on.  If they continue to play like they did on Saturday against North Central,  they will be tough for anyone to beat!  I like Giovannine's move to start Wessels in place of Delp.  While Delp is a gamer and can hit the big shot, Wessels does so many little things that helps in the team's success.  I looking forward to a big finish for the Vikes and another shot in the NCAA's!!!

Viking---

Not sure about your theory--

If your assumption that pollsters are looking (mainly) at won-lost records is correct, then how do you explain the fact that there are 9 teams with fewer losses than Augie, who are ranked below the Vikings. Augie is getting some credit for something. Vikings must be getting credit for their "good losses." Also, while many would argue that there is no such thing as a bad win, I feel Augie has
some "bad wins" which should have been, and likely were, taken into consideration.
What do I mean by "bad wins?' For instance--Simpson, Chicago, Knox, MacMurray, & Beloit have a combined record of 18-71. You can't get much worse that that!
So, if you feel they should get "credit" for losing to Wheaton and Wash U, it seems fair that they should get a "debit" for playing teams such as those mentioned above.
Thoughts?

This is your 2nd reference to the quality of opponent that Augie has faced this year---As others have stated before, "you can only play the schedule that is given to you"---As a member of one of the top 2 conferences in the country, ALL CCIW schools are very competitive---Because of the strength of their programs, ALL will have a pretty good share of "weak opponents" (see, MacMurray, Lake Forest, Otterbein for your beloved Cards)---Most of the other leagues cannot match up---All this discussion of rankings is silly because they will continue to change on a weekly basis---The league is just too balanced

Late---

1. You say you can "only play the schedule given to you." But who do you think schedules the opponents? Its the head coach.
2. Lake Forest just happened to beat NCC last year. NCC did not schedule Otterbein. They entered a tourney at Otterbein, and OC hand picked NCC to play in the opening round, because they thought they could beat the Cardinals.
3. Most, if not all, CCIW teams will have some weak opponents, but I think that its
pretty difficult to find a weaker 5 team opponent's  record of 18-71.
4. My point was not to knock Augie's schedule so much as to point out that I think the pollsters took the Vikings opponent's records into consideration when they
assigned a #15 rating.                  

[sac]

Late---

1. You say you can "only play the schedule given to you." But who do you think schedules the opponents? Its the head coach.2. Lake Forest just happened to beat NCC last year. NCC did not schedule Otterbein. They entered a tourney at Otterbein, and OC hand picked NCC to play in the opening round, because they thought they could beat the Cardinals.
3. Most, if not all, CCIW teams will have some weak opponents, but I think that its
pretty difficult to find a weaker 5 team opponent's  record of 18-71.
4. My point was not to knock Augie's schedule so much as to point out that I think the pollsters took the Vikings opponent's records into consideration when they
assigned a #15 rating.                  

Its also not the coaches fault that they scheduled a traditionally strong program in Chicago and said program has gone 1-13.

[Titan Q]

Massey, a computer poll, has 5 CCIW teams in the Top 25...

http://www.masseyratings.com/rate.php?lg=cb&yr=2009&sub=III&mid=6

#1 Wheaton
#12 Augustana
#17 Elmhurst
#19 Carthage
#25 North Central

The rest of the league is:

#48 Millikin
#56 Illinois Wesleyan
#61 North Park

As far as conferences go, it has the CCIW #1...

http://www.masseyratings.com/rate.php?lg=cb&yr=2009&sub=III&mid=6#conf

[Gregory Sager]

Late---

1. You say you can "only play the schedule given to you." But who do you think schedules the opponents? Its the head coach.2. Lake Forest just happened to beat NCC last year. NCC did not schedule Otterbein. They entered a tourney at Otterbein, and OC hand picked NCC to play in the opening round, because they thought they could beat the Cardinals.
3. Most, if not all, CCIW teams will have some weak opponents, but I think that its
pretty difficult to find a weaker 5 team opponent's  record of 18-71.
4. My point was not to knock Augie's schedule so much as to point out that I think the pollsters took the Vikings opponent's records into consideration when they
assigned a #15 rating.                  

Its also not the coaches fault that they scheduled a traditionally strong program in Chicago and said program has gone 1-13.

That's true. You certainly can't blame Grey Giovanine for Chicago's misfortunes. Giovanine has tried to set up an ongoing series with Chicago for quite some time, and that's considering the fact that the Maroons are currently the two-time defending UAA champions. Creating this series was clearly an attempt by Giovanine to bolster Augustana's non-conference schedule, not weaken it.

This cuts both ways, though. Contrary to what Late night was implying, Otterbein is not typically a cupcake, a la MacMurray. Otterbein has been a traditionally strong OAC power under 600-game-winning head coach Dick Reynolds, winning the D3 national championship as recently as seven seasons ago. The Cardinals won 16 games as recently as two years ago. Like Giovanine with Chicago, when Todd Raridon scheduled his Cardinals to play Reynold's Cardinals, he may very well have been under the impression that Otterbein was going to give NCC some stiff competition.