MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[robberki]

Well, how would you solve the problem? Let's pretend for a second that I can grant any wish, how would you make the teams more competitive?

I would go to Rob Berki and ask him what he would do - he certainly had all the answers a couple of years ago.

dgp

well this Rob Berki you speak of sounds great, but what would YOU do?

[mr_b]

Well, how would you solve the problem? Let's pretend for a second that I can grant any wish, how would you make the teams more competitive?

I would go to Rob Berki and ask him what he would do - he certainly had all the answers a couple of years ago.

dgp

well this Rob Berki you speak of sounds great, but what would YOU do?

C'mon, Rob, you know better than that.  That's like asking Colonel Sanders for the ingredients to his secret recipe.

[Dennis_Prikkel]

Well, how would you solve the problem? Let's pretend for a second that I can grant any wish, how would you make the teams more competitive?

I would go to Rob Berki and ask him what he would do - he certainly had all the answers a couple of years ago.

dgp

well this Rob Berki you speak of sounds great, but what would YOU do?

C'mon, Rob, you know better than that.  That's like asking Colonel Sanders for the ingredients to his secret recipe.

Another payroll voice heard from....

what would you do Dr_b - you sit at the same scorer's table I occupied for 35 years.  What would you do?

Come on - give us all a break - impart some of that PhD wisdom.  How would you fix it.

Or should we just leave it alone and love it, for afterall, it IS North Park?

DGP

I do hope I put the comma in the right place, English grammar was never one of my better subjects in school and I missed the lessons on punctuation and speeling.

[usee]

I am re-posting this on here from the Top 25 board as it is a more relevant discussion (or statement for the lack thereof) for this board.

Those FT thresholds look right to me, too, Ralph.

Incidentally, here's Andy Wiele's career FT performance:

yr	FTM	FTA	FT%
2005-06	33	39	.846
2006-07	37	53	.698
2007-08	75	107	.701
2008-09	26	51	.510

I wonder if the decrease is due to all the bulk he's added since his freshman year?

As a freshman, when he was listed at 6-8/215...
http://www.iwuhoops.com/wc2.jpg

As a junior, listed at 6-8/230 (this year he is listed at 6-8/235)...
http://athletics.wheaton.edu/images/mbball/2007/11/28/wiele2.jpg

I think that's definitely part of it Q, but his role has changed as his bulk has. As a freshman he attempted 56 3pt FG's (hitting 37%) and only 39 FT's (84%). As a sophomore he attempted 55 3pters (hitting 25%) and 53 FT (70%). Last year as a Junior he was 2-7 from 3pt land and 75-107 from the line. This year he has yet to take a 3 and has been to the line 51x through 17 games (51%). I think as he bulked up he has become an inside presence. It seems to have affected his shooting touch to some degree. If you remember in fall of 2006 Wiele was the one who attempted the game winning 3pt FG against Northwestern that rimmed out and would have given the Thunder a win against a Big 10 Team so Bill Harris thought something of him as a shooter back then.

[Viking Blue]

Well, how would you solve the problem? Let's pretend for a second that I can grant any wish, how would you make the teams more competitive?

I would go to Rob Berki and ask him what he would do - he certainly had all the answers a couple of years ago.

dgp

well this Rob Berki you speak of sounds great, but what would YOU do?

C'mon, Rob, you know better than that.  That's like asking Colonel Sanders for the ingredients to his secret recipe.

Another payroll voice heard from....

what would you do Dr_b - you sit at the same scorer's table I occupied for 35 years.  What would you do?

Come on - give us all a break - impart some of that PhD wisdom.  How would you fix it.

Or should we just leave it alone and love it, for afterall, it IS North Park?

DGP

I do hope I put the comma in the right place, English grammar was never one of my better subjects in school and I missed the lessons on punctuation and speeling.

Well, well, well....am I forced to take sides here?

My comments:

1.  The "letter" in question here was a general fundraising request that comes out annually.  Among other things mentioned that the athletic department needs money for was chairs and desks.  I don't think this was a case of Surridge crying poor.  It was an attempt to raise money.  Find me a school in this conference that doesn't do the same.

2.  Dennis-I really wish you wouldn't have posted those conference win-loss numbers.  I became ill when I read that.  Double yuck.

3.  In general (and I'm leaving myself open to get SLAMMED here), I DO believe that North Park athletics are in a state of improvement.  Now that, of course, is a very relative statement.  Heck, the Cub Convention sells out every year.  When the bar is set so low, it's not that difficult to rise above it.  I have been around North Park for almost 15 years now.  Jerry Chaplin was AD when I arrived in 1995.  The softball team played its games in a sandlot behind the CTA bus barn.  See where I'm going here?  I think the problem here is that five years is far too quick.  Considering North Park's financial state, and the conference in which it competes, the Stalinesque five-year plan really ought to be more like a ten-year plan.  I feel like that's much more realistic. 

4.  Are there Jack Surridge/Paul Brenegan apologists on this page?  Yeah, probably.  I don't necessarily consider myself one of them.  I believe that there are certainly some embarassing things that have taken place in regards to North Park athletic success in recent years.  And I know someone has to be held accountable.  My thing is, if you or I were in the same position (and I think this is Berki's point), what could we do differently?

And that is a legitimate question.  I know I have my opinions, but I would love to hear everyone else's.

(And Dennis, I can't give you -k for the slam on Dr. B's phd, but man do you deserve one!  Nothing like taking a man's decision to dedicate his life to his profession and using it against him in a basketball argument...)

[dansand]

I am re-posting this on here from the Top 25 board as it is a more relevant discussion (or statement for the lack thereof) for this board.

Those FT thresholds look right to me, too, Ralph.

Incidentally, here's Andy Wiele's career FT performance:

yr	FTM	FTA	FT%
2005-06	33	39	.846
2006-07	37	53	.698
2007-08	75	107	.701
2008-09	26	51	.510

I wonder if the decrease is due to all the bulk he's added since his freshman year?

As a freshman, when he was listed at 6-8/215...
http://www.iwuhoops.com/wc2.jpg

As a junior, listed at 6-8/230 (this year he is listed at 6-8/235)...
http://athletics.wheaton.edu/images/mbball/2007/11/28/wiele2.jpg

I think that's definitely part of it Q, but his role has changed as his bulk has. As a freshman he attempted 56 3pt FG's (hitting 37%) and only 39 FT's (84%). As a sophomore he attempted 55 3pters (hitting 25%) and 53 FT (70%). Last year as a Junior he was 2-7 from 3pt land and 75-107 from the line. This year he has yet to take a 3 and has been to the line 51x through 17 games (51%). I think as he bulked up he has become an inside presence. It seems to have affected his shooting touch to some degree. If you remember in fall of 2006 Wiele was the one who attempted the game winning 3pt FG against Northwestern that rimmed out and would have given the Thunder a win against a Big 10 Team so Bill Harris thought something of him as a shooter back then.

Considering he was 21-33 (.636) before his injury and has been 5-18 (.278) since, I wonder if maybe it's a case of him still catching up on his conditioning after the foot injury. Fatigue can affect free throw shooting. Just a thought.

[andrewmp]

I am re-posting this on here from the Top 25 board as it is a more relevant discussion (or statement for the lack thereof) for this board.

Those FT thresholds look right to me, too, Ralph.

Incidentally, here's Andy Wiele's career FT performance:

yr	FTM	FTA	FT%
2005-06	33	39	.846
2006-07	37	53	.698
2007-08	75	107	.701
2008-09	26	51	.510

I wonder if the decrease is due to all the bulk he's added since his freshman year?

As a freshman, when he was listed at 6-8/215...
http://www.iwuhoops.com/wc2.jpg

As a junior, listed at 6-8/230 (this year he is listed at 6-8/235)...
http://athletics.wheaton.edu/images/mbball/2007/11/28/wiele2.jpg

I think that's definitely part of it Q, but his role has changed as his bulk has. As a freshman he attempted 56 3pt FG's (hitting 37%) and only 39 FT's (84%). As a sophomore he attempted 55 3pters (hitting 25%) and 53 FT (70%). Last year as a Junior he was 2-7 from 3pt land and 75-107 from the line. This year he has yet to take a 3 and has been to the line 51x through 17 games (51%). I think as he bulked up he has become an inside presence. It seems to have affected his shooting touch to some degree. If you remember in fall of 2006 Wiele was the one who attempted the game winning 3pt FG against Northwestern that rimmed out and would have given the Thunder a win against a Big 10 Team so Bill Harris thought something of him as a shooter back then.

Considering he was 21-33 (.636) before his injury and has been 5-18 (.278) since, I wonder if maybe it's a case of him still catching up on his conditioning after the foot injury. Fatigue can affect free throw shooting. Just a thought.

That is where I come down in this discussion right now.  I think it is a matter of Wiele getting back to where he was.  Obviously, a a 27.8% free throw shooter is not a true indication of where he should be.  However, frustration begets futility, and until he starts hitting some free throws, it going to be in the back of his mind.

Usee, I think in the Northwestern game, Harris was really wanting Raymond to take that last shot, but Northwestern had him completely covered.  They found Wiele open, and he had no choice but to shoot it with time running out.  At the same time, Harris wouldn't have had him out on the floor if he didn't think that he would have a decent shot if need be. 

I caught the tail end of the interview with Coach Harris after I left the Elmhurst game.  He pointed to the terrible percentages in three point shooting and free throws.  Yet he didn't sound concerned, that those will get better.  He himself thought that it was abnormal, and wouldn't continue, and it didn't seem like it was going to be a focus as much in the upcoming practices.

[OurHouse]

Nice win for the Vikes last night. A strong start and strong finish more made up for a bit of a defensive lapse in the middle, but given the nice array of offensive weapons that the Titans have, it's not surprising that they made that run.

Looking at Q's breakdown of the Titan scoring, their 43-point run over the last part of the first half and first part of the second half, coincides almost to the second, with a nearly 16 1/2 minute stretch when they committed no turnovers (after 8 TO's in the first 8+ minutes). IWU did a nice job getting dribble penetration during that stretch, although surprisingly, it seemed like it was Johnson more than Rosenkranz doing the penetrating. The result was good looks on the perimeter for Zimmer and Koschnitzky and opportunities down low for Sexauer. Then, over the last 15 minutes or so, although they didn't force a lot of turnovers (five), Augie did a much better job preventing that penetration.

I was a bit surprised that Wesleyan didn't try and pound it into Sexauer/Chamernick/O'Callaghan in the post in the first half. In fact, it looked to me on their first couple of possessions like their first option was trying to free up Zimmer for threes. I could be wrong, but that was the impression I came away with.

For Augie, Brett Wessels really wanted to be the go-to guy in this one. Although he hasn't shot the three well this year, he's been much better getting to the basket and finishing as compared to last year. That was definitely the case last night. Matt Pelton was outstanding also with 13 points (3-3 3's), three assists, four steals and just one turnover. As usual, Wess, Pelton, Jordan Delp and Alex Washington all were key to the Vikes' outstanding perimeter defense.

Another huge key was the contribution Augie got from the three guys absorbing Justin Bertrand's minutes. Kyle Nelson had a career-high tying 13 points, most in the Vikings' closing run. Bryant Voiles had 8 points and 6 boards and hit the big three that gave Augie the halftime lead, and Jeff Becker was terrific, with 8 rebounds and a block in 10 minutes as well as a great hustle save that led to a Viking transition bucket.

As Q pointed out, the Vikes, along with Wheaton, have the toughest road ahead of them with five road games left to play, but after being 2-2 and two games back a week-and-a-half ago, I like where they're sitting.

Seems to me that Augie does NOT have a "go-to" guy and they can still win games - hmmmm, I wonder why that is?

[Dennis_Prikkel]

Well, how would you solve the problem? Let's pretend for a second that I can grant any wish, how would you make the teams more competitive?

I would go to Rob Berki and ask him what he would do - he certainly had all the answers a couple of years ago.

dgp

well this Rob Berki you speak of sounds great, but what would YOU do?

C'mon, Rob, you know better than that.  That's like asking Colonel Sanders for the ingredients to his secret recipe.

Another payroll voice heard from....

what would you do Dr_b - you sit at the same scorer's table I occupied for 35 years.  What would you do?

Come on - give us all a break - impart some of that PhD wisdom.  How would you fix it.

Or should we just leave it alone and love it, for afterall, it IS North Park?

DGP

I do hope I put the comma in the right place, English grammar was never one of my better subjects in school and I missed the lessons on punctuation and speeling.

Well, well, well....am I forced to take sides here?

My comments:

1.  The "letter" in question here was a general fundraising request that comes out annually.  Among other things mentioned that the athletic department needs money for was chairs and desks.  I don't think this was a case of Surridge crying poor.  It was an attempt to raise money.  Find me a school in this conference that doesn't do the same.

2.  Dennis-I really wish you wouldn't have posted those conference win-loss numbers.  I became ill when I read that.  Double yuck.

3.  In general (and I'm leaving myself open to get SLAMMED here), I DO believe that North Park athletics are in a state of improvement.  Now that, of course, is a very relative statement.  Heck, the Cub Convention sells out every year.  When the bar is set so low, it's not that difficult to rise above it.  I have been around North Park for almost 15 years now.  Jerry Chaplin was AD when I arrived in 1995.  The softball team played its games in a sandlot behind the CTA bus barn.  See where I'm going here?  I think the problem here is that five years is far too quick.  Considering North Park's financial state, and the conference in which it competes, the Stalinesque five-year plan really ought to be more like a ten-year plan.  I feel like that's much more realistic. 

4.  Are there Jack Surridge/Paul Brenegan apologists on this page?  Yeah, probably.  I don't necessarily consider myself one of them.  I believe that there are certainly some embarassing things that have taken place in regards to North Park athletic success in recent years.  And I know someone has to be held accountable.  My thing is, if you or I were in the same position (and I think this is Berki's point), what could we do differently?

And that is a legitimate question.  I know I have my opinions, but I would love to hear everyone else's.

(And Dennis, I can't give you -k for the slam on Dr. B's phd, but man do you deserve one!  Nothing like taking a man's decision to dedicate his life to his profession and using it against him in a basketball argument...)

I gave you a +K for being honest enough to at least give an answer.

lack of facilities, lack of competitiveness, lack of dollars, has been a question at North Park for the 44 years I've been watching Vikings athletics.  It was a question when North Park won five national titles in basketball and had the longest winning streak in the nation in men's basketball and the second longest losing streak in football at the same time.  It's been forty years since North Park had a winning football team.

To come to this board and have myself criticized for seeking the counsel of others is not fair.  If you or they don't like my criticism that's fine - I can live with that - but I would like them to do more than just criticize what I have to say - how would they fix the problems that exist with North Park athletics and specifically with a seemingly non-achieving men's basketball program?  What are their suggestions?  They are certainly closer to the everyday workings of the school than I am.

As for criticizing Dr_b's choice of vocation - get a life - I envy anyone who can achieve a PhD in any subject and dedicate their life to teaching that subject.

DGP

[ecdubb420]

After Drew Gensler left, I thought the EC home woes against Millikin were a thing of the past, but as I've said before, the loss to the Big Blue has proven to shake things up at EC.  
In 05-06 after starting the conference 0-2, EC ripped off 5 straight en route to a CCIW conference bid.
In 06-07, though a little later in the season, after the MU loss, EC ripped off 6 of 7 en route to a CCIW tourney final loss to Augie (and subsequent shun from the NCAA selection committee).
This year, after once again dropping to 0-2 in conference, EC has bounced back with 4 straight wins.  
The odd coincidence with the three losses is they either followed a loss at Augie (06, 09) or were before a loss at Augie (07).  
Whats the point of all of this, well the Big Blue clearly have EC's number on the road and that Coach Scherer manages to take plenty of good out of the shocking losses.  
As for Childs, while covering him during his freshman year, he played nothing but the point and never looked comfortable.  Though I felt and stated that he was a more advanced player than Brian Lee (06-07 3rd Team All-CCIW) was in his first two seasons, it always seemed like he was going to be a better offensive guard a la David Gershenzon (13ppg in conference play 04-05).  The problem was that EC needed a pure point after Lee's graduation.  
This year, it appears that Childs is shoot first ask questions later, and his game has really thrived.  He still has the tools to run the point, however the emergence of McCurdy and Bainters ability to bring the ball up the floor have really allowed him to elevate his game.
The one question mark before this season with EC was the guard play.  Bainter, Childs, McCurdy and Boyd have been all better than advertised and if the steady play continues, I'd have to say EC is the front runner for the conference crown.  That and the emergence of Aaron Hintzsche who continues to provide 10-15 steady minutes a game while Brent Ruch gets a rest.

On to Carthage....

[dansand]

Here are the offensive and defensive efficiency ratings with the CCIW games-only numbers at the bottom:

Overall  Offense                                     Defense                               
Team      Pts  FGA  OR  TO FTA x.475 Poss P/100P      Pts  FGA  OR  TO FTA x.475 Poss P/100P
Augie... 1315 1037 233 236 349  166  1206  109.1     1111  930 178 303 306  145  1200   92.6
Carthage 1228  945 151 164 361  171  1129  108.7     1164  897 169 233 372  177  1138  102.3
Elmhurst 1302  926 178 236 322  153  1137  114.5     1168  913 153 210 351  167  1137  102.8
IWU..... 1317  977 160 241 331  157  1215  108.4     1255  973 169 236 383  182  1222  102.7
Millikin 1106  888 143 245 302  143  1133   97.6     1061  896 152 245 284  135  1124   94.4
NCC..... 1250  906 154 201 406  193  1146  109.1     1113  800 133 307 361  171  1145   97.2
NPU..... 1302  981 175 265 367  174  1245  104.6     1399 1086 224 233 332  158  1253  111.7
Wheaton. 1348  917 150 218 377  179  1164  115.8     1085  938 170 252 307  146  1166   93.1
                                          
                                     
CCIW     Offense                                     Defense                
Team      Pts  FGA  OR  TO FTA x.475 Poss P/100P      Pts  FGA  OR  TO FTA x.475 Poss P/100P
Augie...  467  390  83  86 141   67   460  101.5      425  360  70 106 120   57   453   93.8
Carthage  391  310  44  55 101   48   369  106.0      380  299  53  76 121   57   379  100.1
Elmhurst  459  324  59  80 119   57   402  114.3      418  346  60  60 128   61   407  102.8
IWU.....  453  330  61  83 123   58   410  110.4      475  323  56  65 165   78   410  115.7
Millikin  364  295  37  83  91   43   384   94.7      393  296  42  73 106   50   377  104.1
NCC.....  429  309  50  73 142   67   399  107.4      407  285  34 101 111   53   405  100.6
NPU.....  484  383  66 102 144   68   487   99.3      580  420  80  72 144   68   480  120.7
Wheaton.  418  312  51  68 121   57   386  108.2      387  324  56  77  87   41   386  100.2

[Dennis_Prikkel]

Most people on this board know that I worked at North Park for 19 years – they weren't always glorious – but I still have great love and affection for my school – and both my children have attended there and my estate plan still benefits North Park.

Here is my pedigree:
North Park graduate, 1969
Sports information director/development, 1969-88
CCIW publicity director, 1978-95
NPC mens basketball scorekeeper and statistician, 1966-2001
NPC football statistician, 1966-95

On several occasions, both as North Park SID and as CCIW publicity director I urged athletic directors at other CCIW schools to give North Park a five-year ultimatum, get competitive in the league or leave.

In its current circumstance I think North Park would do well to consider leaving the CCIW, and going as an NAIA independent.  It could then drop sports it does not want to compete in anyway and run just those sports it wants to compete in.  There would be no conference standings to bemoan over and achievements of its teams and athletes would be better recognized in a less competitive setting.

DGP

[shepherd]

With the big rivalry in Napperville tomorow all I have to say is.

"Its on like Donkey Kong Pong, Frogger or Dig Dug!!!!"
I never really liked Donkey Kong I was more of a Frogger person myself. 

[Titan Q]

Thanks again, Dan.  I really like having these numbers.

In CCIW play, Augustana has been the best defensive team by a wide margin.  IWU and North Park can't stop anybody!!

[Dennis_Prikkel]

Thanks again, Dan.  I really like having these numbers.

In CCIW play, Augustana has been the best defensive team by a wide margin.  IWU and North Park can't stop anybody!!

very interesting number Dan Sand.

I would think that defensive prowess comes with experience, both NPU and IWU play a lot of underclassmen.

DGP