MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[titanhammer]

Dennis, I have stayed quiet but now I see a chance to chime in.

When you mentioned the 5-year (personal) NPU ultimatem to get competitive or entertain other options, I agree wholeheartedly.

I played football/baseball at Elmhurst back when they were not very competitive.  We competed well against everybody except the other intraconference schools.

With the NAC now established, I have thought Elmhurst and NPU would fit in nicely.  Elmhurst plays Benedictine, Aurora, CUC, Dom, etc. in almost every sport and there are many similarities between these schools.

IMO, Elmhurst does not compete wtih the other schools in terms of facilities and overall "recognition" of the involvement of athletics at the institution.

Just my two cents but I would think EC and NPU would compete more annually and in more sports in perhaps the NAC or MWC.

I really question your post...and your "comforting" of DP.  DP, what should all of the other schools have done when North Park won their five titles...should they have all moved to another division?

79Jaybird, have you ever heard the term:  "to be the best, you have to beat the best!"  What would your new term be by moving to a lesser conference?  "To be the better than average, you have to beat the not so good."

How many classess would there be if they took your approaches...DI - DXVII?

Everything is cyclicle.  Dennis, you like being a "fair" guy.  If there are now 8 teams in the CCIW...and North Park won 5 titles...and everyone else should get their five titles...wouldn't that be at least 35 - 70 years before North Park "hasn't got their turn" ?

Now, that's not the way I would go about it, but that's what this all sounds like...not very CCIWish....

I'm not discounting the frustration that either one of you had/have, but don't give up.

[Dennis_Prikkel]

Dennis, I have stayed quiet but now I see a chance to chime in.

When you mentioned the 5-year (personal) NPU ultimatem to get competitive or entertain other options, I agree wholeheartedly.

I played football/baseball at Elmhurst back when they were not very competitive.  We competed well against everybody except the other intraconference schools.

With the NAC now established, I have thought Elmhurst and NPU would fit in nicely.  Elmhurst plays Benedictine, Aurora, CUC, Dom, etc. in almost every sport and there are many similarities between these schools.

IMO, Elmhurst does not compete wtih the other schools in terms of facilities and overall "recognition" of the involvement of athletics at the institution.

Just my two cents but I would think EC and NPU would compete more annually and in more sports in perhaps the NAC or MWC.

I really question your post...and your "comforting" of DP.  DP, what should all of the other schools have done when North Park won their five titles...should they have all moved to another division?

79Jaybird, have you ever heard the term:  "to be the best, you have to beat the best!"  What would your new term be by moving to a lesser conference?  "To be the better than average, you have to beat the not so good."

How many classess would there be if they took your approaches...DI - DXVII?

Everything is cyclicle.  Dennis, you like being a "fair" guy.  If there are now 8 teams in the CCIW...and North Park won 5 titles...and everyone else should get their five titles...wouldn't that be at least 35 - 70 years before North Park "hasn't got their turn" ?

Now, that's not the way I would go about it, but that's what this all sounds like...not very CCIWish....

I'm not discounting the frustration that either one of you had/have, but don't give up.

It's not a question of giving up TH - its a question of realization.  North Park has competed in the CCIW for almost 50 years.  Its record of futility in football is well known (one first division finish), but its record in so many other sports that CCIW schools excel in is almost equally futile.  Take away men's basketball, men's soccer, and men's baseball and you would be hard pressed to find any CCIW sport that North Park has finished anywhere higher than sixth, seventh, eighth or ninth, for more than a handle of its membership years.  It dropped three CCIW sports because it decided it was easier not to recruit then to field a team (swimming, wrestling and tennis) - and this after having contending teams in both mens swimming and wrestling.  Its participation in cross-country and golf over the last decade has been sporadic at best, sometimes showing up for the cross-country meet with five runners who all finish last as a group.

My frustration over a once proud basketball program is not what leads me to urge NPU dropping out of the league, its just that the school has shown no inclination that it wants to be competitive - and that is not fair to the other schools in the league.

[Gregory Sager]

IWU's Christina Solari had 13 pts, 8 reb, and 10 assists tonight in a game vs Elmhurst.  That got me wondering when the last CCIW triple-double was.  Anyone recall one?

The only one that I can recall was the triple-double that Lars Anderson had for North Park against Carroll back in '85. He got it the hard way; rather than points/rebounds/assists, he had (IIRC) 14 points, 10 rebounds, and 10 blocks. Lars stands 6'7, but his wingspan is that of a seven-footer. Although Carroll was pretty good that year, I don't think that the Pioneers had anyone taller than 6'4 on that team. It was like watching Karch Kiraly slam down volleyballs in the sand.

Mookie Tharpe had a triple-double for NPU back in '96, but that was in non-conference play.

I was sure that Chris Martin was going to break the triple-double barrier during his Elmhurst career, because his gifts were perfectly suited for it and he accumulated so many high points, rebounds, and assists games over his career. Yet he never quite made it there.

Recordkeeping for North Park women's basketball was less meticulous back in the day, but I wouldn't be surprised if Becky Johnson Djurickovic had a triple-double or three for the Park during her career. As I've posted before, she still holds the Carthage gym record for most assists in a game (men or women) with fifteen, which she set during her senior year at NPC. I wonder if the idea that his mom had a triple-double during her career would push Steve D. to work even harder to get one himself.

[Viking Blue]

IWU's Christina Solari had 13 pts, 8 reb, and 10 assists tonight in a game vs Elmhurst.  That got me wondering when the last CCIW triple-double was.  Anyone recall one?

The only one that I can recall was the triple-double that Lars Anderson had for North Park against Carroll back in '85. He got it the hard way; rather than points/rebounds/assists, he had (IIRC) 14 points, 10 rebounds, and 10 blocks. Lars stands 6'7, but his wingspan is that of a seven-footer. Although Carroll was pretty good that year, I don't think that the Pioneers had anyone taller than 6'4 on that team. It was like watching Karch Kiraly slam down volleyballs in the sand.

Mookie Tharpe had a triple-double for NPU back in '96, but that was in non-conference play.

I was sure that Chris Martin was going to break the triple-double barrier during his Elmhurst career, because his gifts were perfectly suited for it and he accumulated so many high points, rebounds, and assists games over his career. Yet he never quite made it there.

Recordkeeping for North Park women's basketball was less meticulous back in the day, but I wouldn't be surprised if Becky Johnson Djurickovic had a triple-double or three for the Park during her career. As I've posted before, she still holds the Carthage gym record for most assists in a game (men or women) with fifteen, which she set during her senior year at NPC. I wonder if the idea that his mom had a triple-double during her career would push Steve D. to work even harder to get one himself.

Did Mookie's triple-double include 10 steals?

[Gregory Sager]

IWU's Christina Solari had 13 pts, 8 reb, and 10 assists tonight in a game vs Elmhurst.  That got me wondering when the last CCIW triple-double was.  Anyone recall one?

The only one that I can recall was the triple-double that Lars Anderson had for North Park against Carroll back in '85. He got it the hard way; rather than points/rebounds/assists, he had (IIRC) 14 points, 10 rebounds, and 10 blocks. Lars stands 6'7, but his wingspan is that of a seven-footer. Although Carroll was pretty good that year, I don't think that the Pioneers had anyone taller than 6'4 on that team. It was like watching Karch Kiraly slam down volleyballs in the sand.

Mookie Tharpe had a triple-double for NPU back in '96, but that was in non-conference play.

I was sure that Chris Martin was going to break the triple-double barrier during his Elmhurst career, because his gifts were perfectly suited for it and he accumulated so many high points, rebounds, and assists games over his career. Yet he never quite made it there.

Recordkeeping for North Park women's basketball was less meticulous back in the day, but I wouldn't be surprised if Becky Johnson Djurickovic had a triple-double or three for the Park during her career. As I've posted before, she still holds the Carthage gym record for most assists in a game (men or women) with fifteen, which she set during her senior year at NPC. I wonder if the idea that his mom had a triple-double during her career would push Steve D. to work even harder to get one himself.

Did Mookie's triple-double include 10 steals?

LOL!

[andrewmp]

If I was Wheaton, I wouldn't rush Raymond back into the lineup because (and from personal experience) when you rush back after an injury, the chances of you reaggravating that injury is high.

I vote for holding Raymond out until after the Augie game on Saturday .

I agree with Jaybird.  As much as I would love to see him tomorrow night score some points for Wheaton, I just don't think it is smart to bring him back in too soon.  Today was supposed to be his first practice, so we will see about tomorrow.  Again, I think that it is smart to wait until the NPU and Millikin games, both games Wheaton should be favored in without Raymond.  Get him in for 10-15 minutes, then bring it up to 20 the next.  If he responds well, I think he would be good for the rest of the season.  Even if Wheaton does fall to 4-4 in confrence, I still think they have a very strong shot at getting into post-season play.  And with every team already with at least 2 losses, it will still be very doable to take a shot at hosting.

[AndOne]

bgbully40----

Next time you don't know what I meant, ask rather than accuse, and I won't protest at all.   
And if I've got something wrong, tell me why.   8)

[AndOne]

I fear that w/o Raymond back Wheaton will have a tough time winning against the naperville red birds on saturday.  As pointed out before their recent record in the "hangar" has been dismal.   Unless Panner, Wiele, and Jahns, shake the funk they are in at the line and with the 3 ball it will be a long night.  I don't expect the 2 freshman to carry the team but they provide a good supporting cast that can feed off their leadership.   Can Raymond be the designated free throw shooter ?  PLEASE!!!!!

Hope everyone who reads this is sitting down when they do, but I agree with bg!

If Raymond doesn't play. I think North Central wins. If he plays, I certainly won't wish further injury to him, but I sure do hope for substantial ineffectiveness!

Even if he does play, I think North Central can win if the Cards do the majority of the following things 1) Keep Wiele, McCrary, & Carwell from dominating the rebounding battle, 2) Win the TO battle, 3) Limit Wheaton's 3 pt opportunities, 4) Hit at least 75 % of their FTs, and 5) Score 70 or more pts. 
I don't put much stock in past records between the teams. Just because NCC has dominated recently, means nothing.

[Titan Q]

My All-CCIW team at the halfway point...

1st Team
Steve Djurickovic, Carthage (So.) - Most Outstanding Player
Kent Raymond, Wheaton (Sr.)
Brent Ruch, Elmhurst (Sr.)
Ryan Burks, Elmhurst (Sr.)
Chris Drennan, North Central (Sr.)

2nd Team
Doug Sexauer, Illinois Wesleyan (So.)
Chandlor Collins, Augustana (Sr.)
Roshawn Russell, North Park (Fr.)
Sean Fendley, Carthage (Jr.)
Tunde Ogunleye, Millikin (Sr.)

3rd Team
Brett Wessels, Augustana (Sr.)
Matt Rogers, North Central (Sr.)
Travis Rosenkranz, Illinois Wesleyan (So.)
Nick Williams, North Park (Jr.)
Chris Childs, Elmhurst (Jr.)

All-Freshmen Team:
Roshawn Russell, North Park
Tim McCrary, Wheaton
John Koschnitzky, Illinois Wesleyan
Jordan Zimmer, Illinois Wesleyan
Mike McCurdy, Elmhurst

[Viking Mike]

Anyone with info on how Justin Bertrand is doing?
Is he close to returning?

I 'm having trouble dealing with these road games for Augie.  (nerve-racking)
I think tonight I will travel to Naperville to cheer on North Central and see if Raymond plays and how effective he may be for the Augie game Saturday.  I feel relatively confident that the Vikings can put it together on the road and come out with a win tonight.... but this conference is so tough, you never know what might happen.

GO AUGIE!!!

[usee]

My All-CCIW team at the halfway point...

1st Team
Steve Djurickovic, Carthage (So.) - Most Outstanding Player
Kent Raymond, Wheaton (Sr.)
Brent Ruch, Elmhurst (Sr.)
Ryan Burks, Elmhurst (Sr.)
Chris Drennan, North Central (Sr.)

2nd Team
Doug Sexauer, Illinois Wesleyan (So.)
Chandlor Collins, Augustana (Sr.)
Roshawn Russell, North Park (Fr.)
Sean Fendley, Carthage (Jr.)
Tunde Ogunleye, Millikin (Sr.)

3rd Team
Brett Wessels, Augustana (Sr.)
Matt Rogers, North Central (Sr.)
Travis Rosenkranz, Illinois Wesleyan (So.)
Nick Williams, North Park (Jr.)
Chris Childs, Elmhurst (Jr.)

All-Freshmen Team:
Roshawn Russell, North Park
Tim McCrary, Wheaton
John Koschnitzky, Illinois Wesleyan
Jordan Zimmer, Illinois Wesleyan
Mike McCurdy, Elmhurst

Q,

The only quibbles I would have with this is omission of Andy Wiele. His numbers ( 13.25pts, 5.8 reb, 61%) are as good or arguably better than most in far less minutes per game (21min). He has also played 4 of the 6 conference games and Raymond has only played 3-6. (Raymond would be the projected probable MOP if not hurt based on his numbers through 3 conf games--32pts, 3assists, 95% ft avg, 50% 3pt shooting, 55% fg avg--with exception of assits, all are better or than Stevie D.).

I also would argue with Wessels over Ogunleye. the bears DE has been non existent in big games against Augie and Wheaton. Wessels has seemingly been more consistent (subjectively) so I would swap their positions. Just my opinion.

[Jim Matson]

Nice post, Q.  It's not too early to be thinking along those lines.

I would have put Wiele on the 3rd team, but then you knew I would say that...

[usee]

Here are Andy Wiele's numbers through 6 conference games and where he ranks among conf leaders:

13.25pts per game (9th)
5.8 rebounds per game (5th)
60% Fg (3rd)
21 minutes (way down the list)

BTW, Raymond, who has played only 3 games, has:

32pts per game (1st)
3 assists (8th)
95% FT 19-20 (2nd)
1.00 steals (t-10th)
55% FG avg (10th)
50% 3pt avg 11-22 (4th)
3.66 3pt made per game (1st)
1.3 blocks per game (5th)

[Titan Q]

The only quibbles I would have with this is omission of Andy Wiele. His numbers ( 13.25pts, 5.8 reb, 61%) are as good or arguably better than most in far less minutes per game (21min).

Wiele, along with Ben Panner, David Twyman, Matt Pelton, and a couple others were my "outside-looking-in guys."  In the end, I felt good about the 5 I settled on for the 3rd Team...

Brett Wessels (SG) - 11.4 ppg, 3.6 rpg, 2.1 apg (great defender as well...floor leader, etc)
Matt Rogers (PF) - 12.7 ppg, .519 FG
Travis Rosenkranz (PG) - 12.5 ppg, 2.0 rpg, 4.7 apg, 2.8 A:TO ratio
Nick Williams (PF) - 12.8 ppg, 7.5 rpg
Chris Childs (SG) - 13.5 ppg, 3.5 apg, .644 FG (league leader), .609 3-pt (league leader)


What becomes difficult is comparing positions -- evaluating a point-guard vs a low-post player, for example.

Obviously Wiele would be on here had he played more minutes so far.  Not sure who would come off to get him on.  Tough call.  (His FT troubles also factored into my decision to leave him off for now.)

You are probably right about Wessels.   

[usee]

For the record, Wiele would have been on my second team and I can see 4-5 I would leave off instead of him. 

The reality is the data set is too small still as not everyone has even finished their first round-robin and Wiele has missed 2 of the first 6 games. I think its safe to assume his numbers will only get better as he plays more minutes. I will be surprised by the end of the season not to see Wiele on the 1st or at a minimum, 2nd team if he stays healthy.

I will note that its interesting you left Wiele off because of "minutes played" when he has played more than Raymond who is on your 1st team. 


Good list overall. Thanks