MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[andrewmp]

However, instead of being discouraged, the Cardinals seemed to relish the challenge. After being behind by as many as six points for the 1st 11 minutes, NC finally took the lead for good at 8:58 on a Mitch Raridon three, and never looked back. By halftime they had transposed the earlier Wheaton six point lead into a like advantage of their own. In the 2nd half, they efficiently and steadily tacked another 10 points onto their halftime lead primarily through pounding the ball inside and overwhelming what appeared to be a tired and frustrated Wheaton defense. The insertion of superstar Kent Raymond into the Thunder lineup did nothing to suppress the Cardinal onslaught, although Raymond, coming off an ankle injury of 2 weeks duration, was clearly not himself. However, had Raymond been himself, I don't believe the outcome would have been any different as he would have only registered the points others converted in his place. The Cardinals confidence level is such that, in speaking with a couple of them prior to the commencement of festivities, they indicated Raymond would play as they looked forward to the challenge he potentially presented.

AndOne, I will disagree with one of your comments earlier, and welcome your counter points.  You had said that Raymond at his normal All-American self wouldn't have made a difference because his lack of production was made up by others on the Wheaton team Wednesday night.  This I disagree with on several fronts. This contention is,at the outset, a "what if" scenario, and so it is only speculation that we are arguing over.  However, you did speculate, so I will take the bait. 
When Raymond has been playing before, Wheaton's average has been quite a bit higher, I believe around 25 points higher.  Those games he has not played has seen Wheaton score 61, 54, and 57, or about a 57 point average.  Against NCC they scored 66.  In the three previous CCIW games, they had scored 74, 93, and 79, or an 82 point average.  In all three of those games, there was a period where Raymond took over, either keeping them in the game when the other team was making a run (IWU) or pushing them out in front (NPU and Augie).  Had we seen Raymond play like he had before this game, I think it would have been a very different game, and not simply a foregone conclusion.  And although I do think that NCC's defense is quite good, Augie and IWU both defended Raymond very tough, yet still put up those points.

Moving past Wednesday night's games, I am looking at the match-up of Augie-Wheaton and wondering how this one will shake out.  Before Wednesday, I thought Wheaton had little chance.  Then Raymond played 20 minutes, which was far more than I expected, and Augie may still be without Betrand, a key player.  I still think that Augie will win this matchup, but I like Wheaton's chances a lot more.  Raymond was out for only two weeks, and on Wednesday, did not look so much slowed by the injury, but rather rusty from lack of play and practice.  He could regain his form tomorrow, or he may still be a less effective Raymond like he was Wednesday.  He really was the difference in the last meeting, scoring those 14 points in that short spurt to begin the second half. 

[AndOne]

I think I heard some music , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LH4-tOqLH94   after reading AO's dramatic description of the naperville redbirds play this year....

What happened when Wiele was double teamed in the post?  Why wasn't he kicking back outside for the open 3 or was the defense such that he couldn't?  That is what makes the post game effective.  Either pound it inside to open the outside jumper or hit the 3 to loosen the post.    Sort of like football some teams run the ball to open the passing game or pass the ball to open the run game.  When you can't hit the 3 as was the case in naperville (3 of 15) then that really limits the inside game and makes it easier to defend.  So maybe I answered my own question here.

Wheels---

Can't tell if you like or dislike my descriptions. Do I get a bit carried away? Yes. Blame the journalism class i took long ago (I know I didn't learn much) and the fact that if I don't crow over the Cards exploits, nobody else is likely to as I'm the only regular NCC poster on here. 

My game descriptions and the 'Ballad of the Green Berets'? NO, I don't think so, but you flatter me.

As far as answering your own question. I think you pretty much did so as you surmised. Two of the Cards points of emphasis for the Wheaton game were to double down low when possible, and to limit Wheaton's 3 point opportunities. Mission accomplished. I also must say Wiele looked both frustrated (partly NCC defense, and partly the refs) and tired. There were 3 or 4 times WC rebounded or passed inbounds after a made NCC basket, where I didn't think he was going to be able to make it up the floor. I honestly thought we might need the paramedics. Lingering effects of his injury of a few weeks ago?

[79jaybird]

Looking at the Wheaton/Augie game I think the real key is going to be Andy Wiele and Ben Panner.  These two were non existent in the Elmhurst/Wheaton game.

If Wheaton is able to force it down low and allow Wiele to use his strength, I think Wheaton will be able to win this game on the offensive side.

If Wheaton gets "soft" like they did against Elmhurst, I think Augie's defense handcuffs Wheaton and Augie wins this game by 7-10 points.

Don't want to count chickens before they hatch, however if Elmhurst is able to defeat IWU that would be a 4-game winning streak against IWU which would (I believe) be a first.

[AndOne]

However, instead of being discouraged, the Cardinals seemed to relish the challenge. After being behind by as many as six points for the 1st 11 minutes, NC finally took the lead for good at 8:58 on a Mitch Raridon three, and never looked back. By halftime they had transposed the earlier Wheaton six point lead into a like advantage of their own. In the 2nd half, they efficiently and steadily tacked another 10 points onto their halftime lead primarily through pounding the ball inside and overwhelming what appeared to be a tired and frustrated Wheaton defense. The insertion of superstar Kent Raymond into the Thunder lineup did nothing to suppress the Cardinal onslaught, although Raymond, coming off an ankle injury of 2 weeks duration, was clearly not himself. However, had Raymond been himself, I don't believe the outcome would have been any different as he would have only registered the points others converted in his place. The Cardinals confidence level is such that, in speaking with a couple of them prior to the commencement of festivities, they indicated Raymond would play as they looked forward to the challenge he potentially presented.

AndOne, I will disagree with one of your comments earlier, and welcome your counter points.  You had said that Raymond at his normal All-American self wouldn't have made a difference because his lack of production was made up by others on the Wheaton team Wednesday night.  This I disagree with on several fronts. This contention is,at the outset, a "what if" scenario, and so it is only speculation that we are arguing over.  However, you did speculate, so I will take the bait. 
When Raymond has been playing before, Wheaton's average has been quite a bit higher, I believe around 25 points higher.  Those games he has not played has seen Wheaton score 61, 54, and 57, or about a 57 point average.  Against NCC they scored 66.  In the three previous CCIW games, they had scored 74, 93, and 79, or an 82 point average.  In all three of those games, there was a period where Raymond took over, either keeping them in the game when the other team was making a run (IWU) or pushing them out in front (NPU and Augie).  Had we seen Raymond play like he had before this game, I think it would have been a very different game, and not simply a foregone conclusion.  And although I do think that NCC's defense is quite good, Augie and IWU both defended Raymond very tough, yet still put up those points.

Moving past Wednesday night's games, I am looking at the match-up of Augie-Wheaton and wondering how this one will shake out.  Before Wednesday, I thought Wheaton had little chance.  Then Raymond played 20 minutes, which was far more than I expected, and Augie may still be without Betrand, a key player.  I still think that Augie will win this matchup, but I like Wheaton's chances a lot more.  Raymond was out for only two weeks, and on Wednesday, did not look so much slowed by the injury, but rather rusty from lack of play and practice.  He could regain his form tomorrow, or he may still be a less effective Raymond like he was Wednesday.  He really was the difference in the last meeting, scoring those 14 points in that short spurt to begin the second half. 

Andrew---

Here are my thoughts on the subject:
1. If Raymond plays at full strength, I believe 3 players in particular don't get as many points as Raymond would score many that they got because of his being out of the lineup for 1/2 the game. Those three are Jahns (who prob isn't even in the game as much), McCrary (the top scorer in Raymond's absence), and Carwell (more outside production with Raymond at full strength so less opportunities for Carwell inside). One of the games you referenced was WC-AC. In that game the trio of McCrary, Jahns, and Carwell scored only 18 points with Raymond playing as opposed to the 31 they combined for against NCC with Raymond out half the game.
2. You mentioned games where, with Raymond, the Thunder scored 74, 79, and 93.
If they had scored either 74 or 79 against NCC Wed, they still would have lost as Ncc had 81. The 93 came against NPU which isn't exactly stopping many teams this year. They would never score 93 on NCC they way the Cards are playing D this year.
3. Raymond playing at full strength the last several seasons against NCC hasn't done much good as the NCC staff has a history of devising a game plan to defeat the Thunder even with him at full strength.
Thanks for the chance to further explain.

[andrewmp]

However, instead of being discouraged, the Cardinals seemed to relish the challenge. After being behind by as many as six points for the 1st 11 minutes, NC finally took the lead for good at 8:58 on a Mitch Raridon three, and never looked back. By halftime they had transposed the earlier Wheaton six point lead into a like advantage of their own. In the 2nd half, they efficiently and steadily tacked another 10 points onto their halftime lead primarily through pounding the ball inside and overwhelming what appeared to be a tired and frustrated Wheaton defense. The insertion of superstar Kent Raymond into the Thunder lineup did nothing to suppress the Cardinal onslaught, although Raymond, coming off an ankle injury of 2 weeks duration, was clearly not himself. However, had Raymond been himself, I don't believe the outcome would have been any different as he would have only registered the points others converted in his place. The Cardinals confidence level is such that, in speaking with a couple of them prior to the commencement of festivities, they indicated Raymond would play as they looked forward to the challenge he potentially presented.

AndOne, I will disagree with one of your comments earlier, and welcome your counter points.  You had said that Raymond at his normal All-American self wouldn't have made a difference because his lack of production was made up by others on the Wheaton team Wednesday night.  This I disagree with on several fronts. This contention is,at the outset, a "what if" scenario, and so it is only speculation that we are arguing over.  However, you did speculate, so I will take the bait. 
When Raymond has been playing before, Wheaton's average has been quite a bit higher, I believe around 25 points higher.  Those games he has not played has seen Wheaton score 61, 54, and 57, or about a 57 point average.  Against NCC they scored 66.  In the three previous CCIW games, they had scored 74, 93, and 79, or an 82 point average.  In all three of those games, there was a period where Raymond took over, either keeping them in the game when the other team was making a run (IWU) or pushing them out in front (NPU and Augie).  Had we seen Raymond play like he had before this game, I think it would have been a very different game, and not simply a foregone conclusion.  And although I do think that NCC's defense is quite good, Augie and IWU both defended Raymond very tough, yet still put up those points.

Moving past Wednesday night's games, I am looking at the match-up of Augie-Wheaton and wondering how this one will shake out.  Before Wednesday, I thought Wheaton had little chance.  Then Raymond played 20 minutes, which was far more than I expected, and Augie may still be without Betrand, a key player.  I still think that Augie will win this matchup, but I like Wheaton's chances a lot more.  Raymond was out for only two weeks, and on Wednesday, did not look so much slowed by the injury, but rather rusty from lack of play and practice.  He could regain his form tomorrow, or he may still be a less effective Raymond like he was Wednesday.  He really was the difference in the last meeting, scoring those 14 points in that short spurt to begin the second half. 

Andrew---

Here are my thoughts on the subject:
1. If Raymond plays at full strength, I believe 3 players in particular don't get as many points as Raymond would score many that they got because of his being out of the lineup for 1/2 the game. Those three are Jahns (who prob isn't even in the game as much), McCrary (the top scorer in Raymond's absence), and Carwell (more outside production with Raymond at full strength so less opportunities for Carwell inside). One of the games you referenced was WC-AC. In that game the trio of McCrary, Jahns, and Carwell scored only 18 points with Raymond playing as opposed to the 31 they combined for against NCC with Raymond out half the game.
2. You mentioned games where, with Raymond, the Thunder scored 74, 79, and 93.
If they had scored either 74 or 79 against NCC Wed, they still would have lost as Ncc had 81. The 93 came against NPU which isn't exactly stopping many teams this year. They would never score 93 on NCC they way the Cards are playing D this year.
3. Raymond playing at full strength the last several seasons against NCC hasn't done much good as the NCC staff has a history of devising a game plan to defeat the Thunder even with him at full strength.
Thanks for the chance to further explain.

I thought about leaving NPU out, but Raymond dominated that game like the others, and it is a CCIW game, a better comparison than the non-conference games.  In all but three non-conference games, Wheaton scored 80 or more points, and one time out of the three that they did not, they scored 78.  But I digress.
In response to point 1 - I would look at the scoring production more by position...for instance, against IWU, without Wiele, Wheaton bigs combined for 20, and the guards sans Raymond scored 16.  Against Augie - guards 23, bigs - 30 (with Wiele).  Against NCC - guards 21, bigs 32.  The larger difference for the guards between the IWU and Augie is due to Raymond going for 38 against IWU, and most likely would have been a bit above 30 if he was not hurt in the Augie game.  My point is, Wheaton got similar production from their different positions in those three games (I left out the NPU game for you).  Leaving Panner out of your equation forgets the open look he gets because other teams are focused on Raymond.  He did not have his typical game the other night (8 points vs 14 AUG, 13, vs IWU, 15 vs NPU).  However, I do think this is one of your better points.

As to point number two, I think this is your weakest.  A final score of 81 is not how it probably would have ended up if it were a closer game, because NCC probably wouldn't have been at the line as much towards the end, since Wheaton would have been looking to play hard d rather then press and foul (but with the refs that night, who knows).  As was said before, 12 of the last 14 NCC points were from the line, making this game look more lopsided than it was.  For most of the game, it was contested, with Wheaton down by 4 with 8 minutes left, and down by 6 with under 5 minutes left.  So saying if Wheaton had scored closer to what they did against IWU and Augie they still would have lost is a little off base.  Furthermore, I do beleive that Wheaton would have scored more and won by a more comfortable margin against Augie if Raymond had not gone down.  So I see your second point having little merit in the purely hypothetical situation. 

While point number three is valid, and a real concern for all Thunder fans before the conference play started, it is also conversly true that Wheaton had never played quite as well before this year, being 14-0 with Raymond (and several games without Wiele).  Last year they couldn't beat IWU in three tries, even with Raymond having a strong performance.  This year, not the case. 

To end this on my part, I don't think this hypothetical situation is as open and shut as you seem to put it.  I am not saying that I think Wheaton would have won if Raymond was 100%, but I am saying that they would of had a good chance to win, even watching the game Wednesday.  This was not a game like they had against Elmhurt, where they never threatened in the second half.  It was a hard fought game that NCC pulled away in towards the end.  Thanks for playing along with my imaginations of an injury free thunder team.

I look forward to the end of the season rematch, where hopefully it will be a more player focused game, and both teams are healthy.  That game could determine a lot of things in the CCIW and national picture.

[cardinalfanrochelle]

wheels81,
           What happened when Drennan fouled out and Rogers picked up Wiele?I didn't see Wiele do much more than when Chris was guarding him , both had some help in the post but not double teamed like you were saying. Both NCC post players hit 20 and 18 pts. so what does that say also?

[Late nite]

However, instead of being discouraged, the Cardinals seemed to relish the challenge. After being behind by as many as six points for the 1st 11 minutes, NC finally took the lead for good at 8:58 on a Mitch Raridon three, and never looked back. By halftime they had transposed the earlier Wheaton six point lead into a like advantage of their own. In the 2nd half, they efficiently and steadily tacked another 10 points onto their halftime lead primarily through pounding the ball inside and overwhelming what appeared to be a tired and frustrated Wheaton defense. The insertion of superstar Kent Raymond into the Thunder lineup did nothing to suppress the Cardinal onslaught, although Raymond, coming off an ankle injury of 2 weeks duration, was clearly not himself. However, had Raymond been himself, I don't believe the outcome would have been any different as he would have only registered the points others converted in his place. The Cardinals confidence level is such that, in speaking with a couple of them prior to the commencement of festivities, they indicated Raymond would play as they looked forward to the challenge he potentially presented.

AndOne, I will disagree with one of your comments earlier, and welcome your counter points.  You had said that Raymond at his normal All-American self wouldn't have made a difference because his lack of production was made up by others on the Wheaton team Wednesday night.  This I disagree with on several fronts. This contention is,at the outset, a "what if" scenario, and so it is only speculation that we are arguing over.  However, you did speculate, so I will take the bait. 
When Raymond has been playing before, Wheaton's average has been quite a bit higher, I believe around 25 points higher.  Those games he has not played has seen Wheaton score 61, 54, and 57, or about a 57 point average.  Against NCC they scored 66.  In the three previous CCIW games, they had scored 74, 93, and 79, or an 82 point average.  In all three of those games, there was a period where Raymond took over, either keeping them in the game when the other team was making a run (IWU) or pushing them out in front (NPU and Augie).  Had we seen Raymond play like he had before this game, I think it would have been a very different game, and not simply a foregone conclusion.  And although I do think that NCC's defense is quite good, Augie and IWU both defended Raymond very tough, yet still put up those points.

Moving past Wednesday night's games, I am looking at the match-up of Augie-Wheaton and wondering how this one will shake out.  Before Wednesday, I thought Wheaton had little chance.  Then Raymond played 20 minutes, which was far more than I expected, and Augie may still be without Betrand, a key player.  I still think that Augie will win this matchup, but I like Wheaton's chances a lot more.  Raymond was out for only two weeks, and on Wednesday, did not look so much slowed by the injury, but rather rusty from lack of play and practice.  He could regain his form tomorrow, or he may still be a less effective Raymond like he was Wednesday.  He really was the difference in the last meeting, scoring those 14 points in that short spurt to begin the second half. 

Andrew---

Here are my thoughts on the subject:
1. If Raymond plays at full strength, I believe 3 players in particular don't get as many points as Raymond would score many that they got because of his being out of the lineup for 1/2 the game. Those three are Jahns (who prob isn't even in the game as much), McCrary (the top scorer in Raymond's absence), and Carwell (more outside production with Raymond at full strength so less opportunities for Carwell inside). One of the games you referenced was WC-AC. In that game the trio of McCrary, Jahns, and Carwell scored only 18 points with Raymond playing as opposed to the 31 they combined for against NCC with Raymond out half the game.
2. You mentioned games where, with Raymond, the Thunder scored 74, 79, and 93.
If they had scored either 74 or 79 against NCC Wed, they still would have lost as Ncc had 81. The 93 came against NPU which isn't exactly stopping many teams this year. They would never score 93 on NCC they way the Cards are playing D this year.
3. Raymond playing at full strength the last several seasons against NCC hasn't done much good as the NCC staff has a history of devising a game plan to defeat the Thunder even with him at full strength.
Thanks for the chance to further explain.

The best player in the league and possibly one of the best players in the country wouldn't have made a difference even if he was healthy!?!?---Raymond played about 20 minutes in the game at less than 100%---I look forward to the final game of the season at Wheaton---Raymond playing at 100%, 36-40 minutes of floor time, a possible tourney berth or league championship at stake?---Maybe your confidence will be justified---Possibly not---IMHO, the Cards season comes down to their last two road games of the season---At Carthage (Stevie D at home shooting 25-30 FT's---the refs love him up there) and at Wheaton (a team who could possibly be close to full strength for the first time the entire CCIW season)---Home games vs Augie (who thrashed NCC earlier) and Elmhurst (their other loss) SHOULD be wins if you are truly a contender---I expect them to defend their home court---A team that has 7 JRS/SRS playing most of the minutes every game should have every expectation of contending for the top spot---The Cards are a very good, EXPERIENCED team with an excellent Head Coach---Their success does not surprise me---The 2nd half will be just as unpredictable as the first half

[Titan Q]

Don't want to count chickens before they hatch, however if Elmhurst is able to defeat IWU that would be a 4-game winning streak against IWU which would (I believe) be a first.

This would just be 2, jaybird.  IWU somehow missed 20 FT's and won by 4 last February in Bloomington...

http://www.iwu.edu/~iwunews/sports/mbb2008/IWMBB21.HTM

[AndOne]

However, instead of being discouraged, the Cardinals seemed to relish the challenge. After being behind by as many as six points for the 1st 11 minutes, NC finally took the lead for good at 8:58 on a Mitch Raridon three, and never looked back. By halftime they had transposed the earlier Wheaton six point lead into a like advantage of their own. In the 2nd half, they efficiently and steadily tacked another 10 points onto their halftime lead primarily through pounding the ball inside and overwhelming what appeared to be a tired and frustrated Wheaton defense. The insertion of superstar Kent Raymond into the Thunder lineup did nothing to suppress the Cardinal onslaught, although Raymond, coming off an ankle injury of 2 weeks duration, was clearly not himself. However, had Raymond been himself, I don't believe the outcome would have been any different as he would have only registered the points others converted in his place. The Cardinals confidence level is such that, in speaking with a couple of them prior to the commencement of festivities, they indicated Raymond would play as they looked forward to the challenge he potentially presented.

AndOne, I will disagree with one of your comments earlier, and welcome your counter points.  You had said that Raymond at his normal All-American self wouldn't have made a difference because his lack of production was made up by others on the Wheaton team Wednesday night.  This I disagree with on several fronts. This contention is,at the outset, a "what if" scenario, and so it is only speculation that we are arguing over.  However, you did speculate, so I will take the bait. 
When Raymond has been playing before, Wheaton's average has been quite a bit higher, I believe around 25 points higher.  Those games he has not played has seen Wheaton score 61, 54, and 57, or about a 57 point average.  Against NCC they scored 66.  In the three previous CCIW games, they had scored 74, 93, and 79, or an 82 point average.  In all three of those games, there was a period where Raymond took over, either keeping them in the game when the other team was making a run (IWU) or pushing them out in front (NPU and Augie).  Had we seen Raymond play like he had before this game, I think it would have been a very different game, and not simply a foregone conclusion.  And although I do think that NCC's defense is quite good, Augie and IWU both defended Raymond very tough, yet still put up those points.

Moving past Wednesday night's games, I am looking at the match-up of Augie-Wheaton and wondering how this one will shake out.  Before Wednesday, I thought Wheaton had little chance.  Then Raymond played 20 minutes, which was far more than I expected, and Augie may still be without Betrand, a key player.  I still think that Augie will win this matchup, but I like Wheaton's chances a lot more.  Raymond was out for only two weeks, and on Wednesday, did not look so much slowed by the injury, but rather rusty from lack of play and practice.  He could regain his form tomorrow, or he may still be a less effective Raymond like he was Wednesday.  He really was the difference in the last meeting, scoring those 14 points in that short spurt to begin the second half. 

Andrew---

Here are my thoughts on the subject:
1. If Raymond plays at full strength, I believe 3 players in particular don't get as many points as Raymond would score many that they got because of his being out of the lineup for 1/2 the game. Those three are Jahns (who prob isn't even in the game as much), McCrary (the top scorer in Raymond's absence), and Carwell (more outside production with Raymond at full strength so less opportunities for Carwell inside). One of the games you referenced was WC-AC. In that game the trio of McCrary, Jahns, and Carwell scored only 18 points with Raymond playing as opposed to the 31 they combined for against NCC with Raymond out half the game.
2. You mentioned games where, with Raymond, the Thunder scored 74, 79, and 93.
If they had scored either 74 or 79 against NCC Wed, they still would have lost as Ncc had 81. The 93 came against NPU which isn't exactly stopping many teams this year. They would never score 93 on NCC they way the Cards are playing D this year.
3. Raymond playing at full strength the last several seasons against NCC hasn't done much good as the NCC staff has a history of devising a game plan to defeat the Thunder even with him at full strength.
Thanks for the chance to further explain.

The best player in the league and possibly one of the best players in the country wouldn't have made a difference even if he was healthy!?!?---Raymond played about 20 minutes in the game at less than 100%---I look forward to the final game of the season at Wheaton---Raymond playing at 100%, 36-40 minutes of floor time, a possible tourney berth or league championship at stake?---Maybe your confidence will be justified---Possibly not---IMHO, the Cards season comes down to their last two road games of the season---At Carthage (Stevie D at home shooting 25-30 FT's---the refs love him up there) and at Wheaton (a team who could possibly be close to full strength for the first time the entire CCIW season)---Home games vs Augie (who thrashed NCC earlier) and Elmhurst (their other loss) SHOULD be wins if you are truly a contender---I expect them to defend their home court---A team that has 7 JRS/SRS playing most of the minutes every game should have every expectation of contending for the top spot---The Cards are a very good, EXPERIENCED team with an excellent Head Coach---Their success does not surprise me---The 2nd half will be just as unpredictable as the first half

Late---

Raymond has been on the floor plenty in his career against NCC, and how many wins can he claim in those games? With Wiele playing like he did, and no other player besides McCrary in double figures, which prob doesn't happen if Raymond plays full time, I believe NCC would have still won.

In the 1st half of your post, you seem to go out of your way to discredit NCC. Then in the 2nd half, you heap faint praise upon them. Seems a little contradictory. Additionally it seems you feel a home game should be close to or a guaranteed victory, but then state the CCIW is "unpredictable." Another contradiction. 

[AndOne]

Heard a couple of more tidbits about the Wheaton-NCC game today from some usually very well informed sources who told me:
1. The word before the game was that the Wheaton coaching staff planned on playing Raymond 6-8 minutes. He wound up playing 20.
2. After the game, the respective head coaches were interviewed by their school's radio stations. The interviews, which took part not to far from each other, ended pretty much at the same time. Afterwards, Coach Harris was heard to mention to Coach Raridon something very close to "Gee, the officiating really stinks in our conference." I doubt Coach Raridon had much disagreement with that statement.

[Naperick]

Don't want to count chickens before they hatch, however if Elmhurst is able to defeat IWU that would be a 4-game winning streak against IWU which would (I believe) be a first.

This would just be 2, jaybird.  IWU somehow missed 20 FT's and won by 4 last February in Bloomington...

http://www.iwu.edu/~iwunews/sports/mbb2008/IWMBB21.HTM

Just did a little research and found that the Bluejays have a 5-2 edge in the series since the 2005-2006 season.  Both Titan wins came at the Shirk Center in 2006 & 2008.

[Naperick]

Don't want to count chickens before they hatch.

I agree. Elmhurst seems to be playing very well on the road and ok at home.  The 'Jays are 3-1 in the CCIW on the road with the loss coming at Augie by a point.  The Vikings scored the last 10 points of that game.  Elmhurst is 2-1 at home with unimpressive efforts against N. Park and N. Central.  Millikin beat the Bluejays in Elmhurst.  IL Wesleyan definitely has a great chance to win at R.A. Faganal tomorrow night.  They will also bring a nice crowd.

[Late nite]

However, instead of being discouraged, the Cardinals seemed to relish the challenge. After being behind by as many as six points for the 1st 11 minutes, NC finally took the lead for good at 8:58 on a Mitch Raridon three, and never looked back. By halftime they had transposed the earlier Wheaton six point lead into a like advantage of their own. In the 2nd half, they efficiently and steadily tacked another 10 points onto their halftime lead primarily through pounding the ball inside and overwhelming what appeared to be a tired and frustrated Wheaton defense. The insertion of superstar Kent Raymond into the Thunder lineup did nothing to suppress the Cardinal onslaught, although Raymond, coming off an ankle injury of 2 weeks duration, was clearly not himself. However, had Raymond been himself, I don't believe the outcome would have been any different as he would have only registered the points others converted in his place. The Cardinals confidence level is such that, in speaking with a couple of them prior to the commencement of festivities, they indicated Raymond would play as they looked forward to the challenge he potentially presented.

AndOne, I will disagree with one of your comments earlier, and welcome your counter points.  You had said that Raymond at his normal All-American self wouldn't have made a difference because his lack of production was made up by others on the Wheaton team Wednesday night.  This I disagree with on several fronts. This contention is,at the outset, a "what if" scenario, and so it is only speculation that we are arguing over.  However, you did speculate, so I will take the bait. 
When Raymond has been playing before, Wheaton's average has been quite a bit higher, I believe around 25 points higher.  Those games he has not played has seen Wheaton score 61, 54, and 57, or about a 57 point average.  Against NCC they scored 66.  In the three previous CCIW games, they had scored 74, 93, and 79, or an 82 point average.  In all three of those games, there was a period where Raymond took over, either keeping them in the game when the other team was making a run (IWU) or pushing them out in front (NPU and Augie).  Had we seen Raymond play like he had before this game, I think it would have been a very different game, and not simply a foregone conclusion.  And although I do think that NCC's defense is quite good, Augie and IWU both defended Raymond very tough, yet still put up those points.

Moving past Wednesday night's games, I am looking at the match-up of Augie-Wheaton and wondering how this one will shake out.  Before Wednesday, I thought Wheaton had little chance.  Then Raymond played 20 minutes, which was far more than I expected, and Augie may still be without Betrand, a key player.  I still think that Augie will win this matchup, but I like Wheaton's chances a lot more.  Raymond was out for only two weeks, and on Wednesday, did not look so much slowed by the injury, but rather rusty from lack of play and practice.  He could regain his form tomorrow, or he may still be a less effective Raymond like he was Wednesday.  He really was the difference in the last meeting, scoring those 14 points in that short spurt to begin the second half. 

Andrew---

Here are my thoughts on the subject:
1. If Raymond plays at full strength, I believe 3 players in particular don't get as many points as Raymond would score many that they got because of his being out of the lineup for 1/2 the game. Those three are Jahns (who prob isn't even in the game as much), McCrary (the top scorer in Raymond's absence), and Carwell (more outside production with Raymond at full strength so less opportunities for Carwell inside). One of the games you referenced was WC-AC. In that game the trio of McCrary, Jahns, and Carwell scored only 18 points with Raymond playing as opposed to the 31 they combined for against NCC with Raymond out half the game.
2. You mentioned games where, with Raymond, the Thunder scored 74, 79, and 93.
If they had scored either 74 or 79 against NCC Wed, they still would have lost as Ncc had 81. The 93 came against NPU which isn't exactly stopping many teams this year. They would never score 93 on NCC they way the Cards are playing D this year.
3. Raymond playing at full strength the last several seasons against NCC hasn't done much good as the NCC staff has a history of devising a game plan to defeat the Thunder even with him at full strength.
Thanks for the chance to further explain.

The best player in the league and possibly one of the best players in the country wouldn't have made a difference even if he was healthy!?!?---Raymond played about 20 minutes in the game at less than 100%---I look forward to the final game of the season at Wheaton---Raymond playing at 100%, 36-40 minutes of floor time, a possible tourney berth or league championship at stake?---Maybe your confidence will be justified---Possibly not---IMHO, the Cards season comes down to their last two road games of the season---At Carthage (Stevie D at home shooting 25-30 FT's---the refs love him up there) and at Wheaton (a team who could possibly be close to full strength for the first time the entire CCIW season)---Home games vs Augie (who thrashed NCC earlier) and Elmhurst (their other loss) SHOULD be wins if you are truly a contender---I expect them to defend their home court---A team that has 7 JRS/SRS playing most of the minutes every game should have every expectation of contending for the top spot---The Cards are a very good, EXPERIENCED team with an excellent Head Coach---Their success does not surprise me---The 2nd half will be just as unpredictable as the first half

Late---

Raymond has been on the floor plenty in his career against NCC, and how many wins can he claim in those games? With Wiele playing like he did, and no other player besides McCrary in double figures, which prob doesn't happen if Raymond plays full time, I believe NCC would have still won.

In the 1st half of your post, you seem to go out of your way to discredit NCC. Then in the 2nd half, you heap faint praise upon them. Seems a little contradictory. Additionally it seems you feel a home game should be close to or a guaranteed victory, but then state the CCIW is "unpredictable." Another contradiction. 

You're certainly entitiled to your opinion---I am not discrediting NCC or their win---I'm discrediting your analysis---I'm not saying that Wheaton would have won the game---NCC won a ballgame against a short-handed WC---Fact---Not a contradiction---Everyone on the floor for Wheaton becomes a better player when he is playing at 100%---He WOULD have made a difference---Fact---Would it have been enough on this given night??---Doesn't sound like it

NCC remaining schedule:
North Park---Dissaray---Win
Millikin---Decatur gets colder by the game---Win
IWU---Illinois version of Grinnell---Win
Carthage---The Bosko's double team the refs---Loss
Augie---Couldn't win an IM game at the Hangar---Win
EC---Always stumble down the stretch---Win
WC---Not on Senior Night---Loss

10-4 finish---Conference tourney

[79jaybird]

IWU travels better than anybody in the CCIW for basketball.  That "sea of green" is always large.

I think the Elm/IWU matchup is similar to that of Carthage where Elmhurst has the size advantage inside and IWU has the quickness and speed to try and speed up the tempo of the game.

"Any given day" so everybody has to bring their A game or they will get beat.

[andrewmp]

Heard a couple of more tidbits about the Wheaton-NCC game today from some usually very well informed sources who told me:
1. The word before the game was that the Wheaton coaching staff planned on playing Raymond 6-8 minutes. He wound up playing 20.
2. After the game, the respective head coaches were interviewed by their school's radio stations. The interviews, which took part not to far from each other, ended pretty much at the same time. Afterwards, Coach Harris was heard to mention to Coach Raridon something very close to "Gee, the officiating really stinks in our conference." I doubt Coach Raridon had much disagreement with that statement.

The 6-8 minutes is what I suspected when I heard he was going to play on Tuesday.  I wonder if the game dictated the increase in playing time, or how he responded.  He got fouled pretty had going up for a shot in the first half, but seemed to be fine.
So does his minutes come back down, or is Raymond cut loose for Wheaton tomorrow?