MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[usee]

If I'm understanding the question correctly (cuz I'm not a great X's and O's kinda guy), I think I would answer Sean Dwyer and IWU.  Did I get the question?

No, from the games I saw last year with Dwyer v Raymond they employed a similar strategy that Carthage seemingly did last night. Dwyer tried to get into Raymond's shorts but he had help to slow him down off every screen while he fought over the top. That has the effect of keepiing Raymond from pulling up uncontested for jumpers and forces him away from the basket to allow the defense to reset. One reason it didn't work as well this year was because McCrary, Carwell and Wiele were much better at slipping to the basket off those picks to get easy buckets. Wheaton didn't have that last year and IWU had Gant, who was a premiere defender and made those passes and buckets much harder. That's my 2 cents but Q and others saw more games last year than I did.

[wheels81]

Pete,
My contention was with your  following statement "Fifteen points, many of which were from the free throw line resulting from fouls that were not Hilton's, is a sub-par game for Raymond."   This was simply not true since 6 of the 12 free throws were directly attributed to fouls by Hilton.  (check the play by play)
By the way Wiele didn't grab someone at half-court or when they had the ball.  Occasion touches/checks are normal but we're talking in the process of stretching the other guys jersey so it distorts the numbers.
thats the sort of thing to which I was referring.

[rvb909400]

Help me with the CCIW tiebreaker.  If NC loses, Augie loses and Carthage wins, there is a 3 way tie for 3rd.  Head-to-head is the first tiebreaker.  NC 3-1, Augie 2-2, Carthage 1-3.  In this case, NC and Augie make the tourney with Augie benefiting from NC sweep of Carthage.  However, if the tiebreaker establishes who is first then starts over, NC is in then for fouth place, Carthage and Augie are tied head-to-head and Carthage gets the nod due to their win over Wheaton.

Anybody know how the CCIW does this?

[usee]

Well you gotta +K from me Pete.  Even good coaches try gimmick defenses once in a while - and the sign of a good (great) team is that they have the talent when their best players are being double-teamed to find their points elsewhere.

I saw Dennie Bridges play a triangle and 2 against North Park in 1980, guarding THomas and Greer man for man and double teaming Harper down low.  Grastorf and Clausen lit the Titans up in a big home win.  I think Grastorf had a career high 26 points.

That Carthage went to the final seconds last night with a chance to beat one of the best teams in the country is everything a coach could hope for - Bosko and his players did a good job doing the defensive job they thought would win the game - Wheaton's overall talent got the job done and players other than the stars had big nights.  Sounds like it was a great game in Kenosha - sorry I missed it.

Dennis

I agree with Dennis. This is really the first game Wheaton has had this year where they went to the wire while playing with their whole team intact. This won't be the last time the Thunder sees this or similar types of strategies. Wheaton will need Jahns, McCrary, Pflederer and Carwell at key times the rest of the way if they are to go deep into the postseason. Don't forget a big part of Wheaton's run in the tourney last year was Andrew Jahns hitting big 3's late in games. Wheaton will need someone to step up similar to that this year.

[usee]

Help me with the CCIW tiebreaker.  If NC loses, Augie loses and Carthage wins, there is a 3 way tie for 3rd.  Head-to-head is the first tiebreaker.  NC 3-1, Augie 2-2, Carthage 1-3.  In this case, NC and Augie make the tourney with Augie benefiting from NC sweep of Carthage.  However, if the tiebreaker establishes who is first then starts over, NC is in then for fouth place, Carthage and Augie are tied head-to-head and Carthage gets the nod due to their win over Wheaton.

Anybody know how the CCIW does this?

Others know better but my impression is that the 3 teams (Augie, Carthage, NCC) in your scenario would be compared via head to head matchups against the others (not combined records like you listed). NCC is 1-1 v augie and 2-0 vs Carthage. Augie is 1-1, 1-1, Carthage is 1-1, 0-2. NCC is the 3rd team and then Augie/Carthage are compared to each other.

They split their games but Carthage gets the nod via a win over Wheaton where Augie is 0-2.

Did I get that right?

[petemcb]

Pete,
My contention was with your  following statement "Fifteen points, many of which were from the free throw line resulting from fouls that were not Hilton's, is a sub-par game for Raymond."   This was simply not true since 6 of the 12 free throws were directly attributed to fouls by Hilton.  (check the play by play)
By the way Wiele didn't grab someone at half-court or when they had the ball.  Occasion touches/checks are normal but we're talking in the process of stretching the other guys jersey so it distorts the numbers.
thats the sort of thing to which I was referring.

If 6 of the 12 were a result of Hilton's fouls, then the other 6 were not.  I think 3 fouls on somebody who's not even a regular starter but is now guarding  a D3 All-American is an impressive performance.  If you're nit-picking that 6 of 12 does not constitute "many" and that I should have said "half" then I'll give you that, although it doesn't seem worth debating.  No need to check the play by play.  I watched it.

I didn't say anything about Wiele "grabbing someone at half-court or when they had the ball", but  I wasn't aware that holding fouls only applied if the player being grabbed happened to be holding the ball.  I know touches and checks, and what Wiele was doing under the basket did not qualify as "touches and checks".  

[petemcb]

Can't wait for Saturday to see how all these potential ties and tie-breakers pan out.

[petemcb]

And I hope Wheaton wins out cuz I like their arena and seat backs and food!

[petemcb]

.....not necessarily in that order. 

[andrewmp]

And I hope Wheaton wins out cuz I like their arena and seat backs and food!

Wheaton would be the better gym to host, I agree.  What is interesting is that there is a 50% chance that Wheaton and NCC will be playing each other twice in a row.  Not only does the game on Saturday potentially deterime who is hosting, but it goes a long way to building confidence.  If Wheaton can get he NCC monkey off of its back, the next time they meet would be very different.  However, Wheaton might feel a heavy weight if they lost again and have to face NCC in the first game of the tournament.

[dansand]

Help me with the CCIW tiebreaker.  If NC loses, Augie loses and Carthage wins, there is a 3 way tie for 3rd.  Head-to-head is the first tiebreaker.  NC 3-1, Augie 2-2, Carthage 1-3.  In this case, NC and Augie make the tourney with Augie benefiting from NC sweep of Carthage.  However, if the tiebreaker establishes who is first then starts over, NC is in then for fouth place, Carthage and Augie are tied head-to-head and Carthage gets the nod due to their win over Wheaton.

Anybody know how the CCIW does this?

On second thought, this might be correct. Here are the tiebreaker criteria that Greg posted earlier.

Here's the tiebreaker sequence, copied straight ffrom the CCIW website:

i.   Head to head competition.
ii.   Record against team(s) above the tie beginning with the highest ranked team.
iii.   Record vs team or teams in 3rd place. If still tied, go to the next place for determination, et cetera.
iv.   Road record against conference schools.
v.   Record in their last nine games.
vi.   The point spread of the tied teams' head-to head competition.
vii.   Coin toss

I would interpret that the same way rvb909400 does, but I don't know if that's right. If it is, it would also apply to a three-way tie between Elmhurst (3-1), Augie (2-2) and NCC (1-3), and would change the breakdown to this:

    |--------Saturday-------|   Seedings
    Aug@IWU  Car@Elm  NCC@Whe   Host      2         3         4
1.  AC       Car      NCC       Wheaton   Elmhurst  Augie     NCC
2.  AC       Car      Whe       Wheaton   Elmhurst  Augie     NCC
3.  AC       Elm      NCC       Elmhurst  Wheaton   Augie     NCC
4.  AC       Elm      Whe       Wheaton   Elmhurst  Augie     NCC
5.  IWU      Car      NCC       Wheaton   Elmhurst  NCC       Carthage
6.  IWU      Car      Whe       Wheaton   Elmhurst  NCC       Augie
7.  IWU      Elm      NCC       Elmhurst  Wheaton   NCC       Augie
8.  IWU      Elm      Whe       Wheaton   Elmhurst  NCC       Augie

[Sakman 1111]

Saturday Elmhurst says good-bye to three awesome seniors and tri-captains (Ruch,Burks,and Strzemp).....that will simply be a talented threesome to replace next year.....Of course, a Bluejay victory coupled with a Wheaton loss could postpone the good-byes for a few games....

[usee]

Saturday Elmhurst says good-bye to three awesome seniors and tri-captains (Ruch,Burks,and Strzemp).....that will simply be a talented threesome to replace next year.....Of course, a Bluejay victory coupled with a Wheaton loss could postpone the good-byes for a few games....

I think if Elmhurst wins Saturday and wins at least 1 conf tourney game they should be in good shape for a tourney appearance. Of course if they win 3 in a row they are a lock! 

[Dennis_Prikkel]

from the CCIW website (sorry DGP don't know formatting)

#Wheaton 10-3 21-3
#Elmhurst 9-4 18-6
#North Central  8-5 16-8
Augustana 8-5 17-7
Carthage 7-6 15-9
Millikin 5-8 15-9
Ill. Wesleyan  5-8 13-11
North Park  0-13 8-16

# Clinched CCIW tournament berth

apparently the CCIW front office has this tie-breaker thing figured out.

Saturday's WC/NC is a chance for the Crusaders (oops whatever) to get the Cardinal monkey off their backs - otherwise a rematch in the conference tourney would mean that the Cards would have to beat Wheaton three times to get in the NCAA tourney and they would have the confidence and history to pull that tri-fecta off.

Carthage's game at Elmhurst is no foregone conclusion either - the Jays will need their A-game - especially with the Red Men still having a chance to get into the tourney.  Last year Carthage finished at North Park and looked horrible, though.

dgp

[wheels81]

Pete,
My contention was with your  following statement "Fifteen points, many of which were from the free throw line resulting from fouls that were not Hilton's, is a sub-par game for Raymond."   This was simply not true since 6 of the 12 free throws were directly attributed to fouls by Hilton.  (check the play by play)
By the way Wiele didn't grab someone at half-court or when they had the ball.  Occasion touches/checks are normal but we're talking in the process of stretching the other guys jersey so it distorts the numbers.
thats the sort of thing to which I was referring.

If 6 of the 12 were a result of Hilton's fouls, then the other 6 were not.  I think 3 fouls on somebody who's not even a regular starter but is now guarding  a D3 All-American is an impressive performance.  If you're nit-picking that 6 of 12 does not constitute "many" and that I should have said "half" then I'll give you that, although it doesn't seem worth debating.  No need to check the play by play.  I watched it.

I didn't say anything about Wiele "grabbing someone at half-court or when they had the ball", but  I wasn't aware that holding fouls only applied if the player being grabbed happened to be holding the ball.  I know touches and checks, and what Wiele was doing under the basket did not qualify as "touches and checks".  

I was saying that 6 of 12 is "many".  Just trying to hold you to your words.  You made it sound like Hilton had little to do with Raymond going to the line.    I watched it too and used it to verify what I thought happened.  Don't let the facts get in the way.    Also Wiele was whistled for all his fouls.  Hilton fouled out after non-intentionally intentionally fouling Jahns in the last seconds.  So 8 of Wheaton's 17 made freethrows or 47% of them were results of Hilton fouls

Ok Pete,
I realize you're a closet wheaton fan but seriously I think Carthage's seatbacks are better than Wheaton's.   The only thing they are missing is drink holders in both venues.
You're also right no one beats Klaus' food.
+k to you for putting up with this