MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Dennis_Prikkel]

Who were the studs in '67 who would have been strongly considered?

Did any poster see Price play?

I saw Price play all eight games against North Park in his career, probably about a dozen other CCIW games that I went scouting with Dan McCarrell.

The only competition that Price would have had in '67 was teammates Jack Sunderlik and guard Jerry Hill.  Jerry Parks was an outstanding center for Carthage that year and the Redmen also had Jack Lutz.  IWU's best player was guard Bill Patterson.

The IWU team of 65-66 (Price's freshman year) was a great 'team' - real fab five - but even as a freshman Price was the best talent in the league.

dgp

[dansand]

Congrats to Kent Raymond for another Honor.

http://www.cosida.com/documents/2009/2/25/2008-09MBBAAATeams.pdf

Speaking of Raymond, his third Fred Young Most Outstanding Player Award puts him in some pretty elite company.

Jack Sikma, IWU, 1975, '76, '77
Michael Harper, North Park, 1978, '79, '80
Korey Coon, IWU 1999, 2000, '02 (co-winner each year)

Coon only won it twice, in '99 as a co-winner with Rob Hamann of Wheaton and in '00 as a co-winner with Jason Wiertel of Carthage. The men's history page on the CCIW website needs to be corrected, because Coon's second co-MOP notice has been misplaced. Antoine McDaniel of Carthage was the sole 2002 MOP.

Augie's John Laing ('72 & '73) and Millikin's Jesse Price ('68 & '69) are the only other multiple winners, having won it twice. Price won it as a junior and senior, the first two years it was awarded.

I've always wondered if Price would've won it a third time, if they had given out the award when he was a sophomore.

Thanks for correction Greg. That just makes Raymond's accomplishment that much more impressive.

[Titan Q]

Is WETN going to video stream non-Wheaton CCIW tournament games?  If that is not planned currently, can I slip someone a few bucks to make it happen?  (While I now live in Missouri, I still have Illinois/Chicago roots and "know how things get done.")

[petemcb]

For those of you with more of a long-term perspective on this conference, could/would you give your opinions on how you would rate the competition Raymond has been up against for these awards as opposed to the collective talent level with prior multiple award-winners?  I realize it would be subjective opinions more than quantifiably data-driven conclusions, but it would be interesting to hear from the veterans.  I'll hang up and listen.  (That's for any Chicagoland Scoreheads out there).

[dansand]

Is WETN going to video stream non-Wheaton CCIW tournament games?  If that is not planned currently, can I slip someone a few bucks to make it happen?  (While I now live in Missouri, I still have Illinois/Chicago roots and "know how things get done.")

Yes. I made it happen. Now where's my money.

www.wetn.org

[petemcb]

Is WETN going to video stream non-Wheaton CCIW tournament games?  If that is not planned currently, can I slip someone a few bucks to make it happen?  (While I now live in Missouri, I still have Illinois/Chicago roots and "know how things get done.")

WETN-TV will broadcast both of Friday's semifinals, beginning with the Elmhurst-Augustana game at 6 PM and the Wheaton-North Central game at 8 PM. Live video of both games can be seen online at www.wetn.org.

[dansand]

For those of you with more of a long-term perspective on this conference, could/would you give your opinions on how you would rate the competition Raymond has been up against for these awards as opposed to the collective talent level with prior multiple award-winners?  I realize it would be subjective opinions more than quantifiably data-driven conclusions, but it would be interesting to hear from the veterans.  I'll hang up and listen.  (That's for any Chicagoland Scoreheads out there).

Harper's main competition probably came from teammate Modzel Greer. Of course North Park won the conference and national championships each of those seasons ('78-'80). Augie was second those years and had some terrific players, but none that challenged Harper for MOP.

In 1975, when Sikma won it for the first time, the league was full of outstanding big guys. Augie, with 6-11 Bruce Hamming and Carthage, with Dave Rosenbalm, tied for second behind Wesleyan and Augie advanced to the final four. Millikin, who went 8-8, had the CCIW's all-time leading scorer, Leon Gobczynski, that year also. Rosenbalm was a senior in 1976 when Sikma won the MOP for the second time. In 1977 I don't think ther were any serious challengers. The league's three other top scorers (besides Sikma) were Carthage's Barry Bennett, North Central's Jeff Allen and Carroll's Dave Shaw. They all averaged over 24 ppg, but played on bad teams.

Price and Laing were before my time.

[Dennis_Prikkel]

For those of you with more of a long-term perspective on this conference, could/would you give your opinions on how you would rate the competition Raymond has been up against for these awards as opposed to the collective talent level with prior multiple award-winners?  I realize it would be subjective opinions more than quantifiably data-driven conclusions, but it would be interesting to hear from the veterans.  I'll hang up and listen.  (That's for any Chicagoland Scoreheads out there).

Pete - its always tough to measure one generation against another -
Raymond - top to bottom the league has never been this balanced - but it has been years since we've seen a player of Raymond's ability in the league.  And then to get two at the same time (Stevie DJ).  Chris Martin of Elmhurst comes to mind.  I think Raymond is among the top five scorers (not shooters) I've seen in the league.  He makes everybody on his team better when he's on the floor.

Harper - was the star on three straight national championship team.  How good was NPC, good enough to have four players drafted by the NBA.  Augie did have some great teams at the same time, making the NCAA tournament in 1980, but their individual stars didn't come into their own until 1981: Artis, Brittnum & Price.  North Park won their three CCIW titles by an average of 17 points per game over three years (in comparison Wheaton won their four CCI titles, 1956-59, by an average of 32 points per game), so there were a lot of games when Harper, Greer and Thomas spent the last ten minutes on the bench.  Imagine if any one of them had had the top to bottom competition in the league that has kept Raymond on the floor the last four years.  Remember Raymond's won only one championship.

Sikma - was a great, great player, on a team that had seven all-state players.  Augustana and Carthage was their main competition in his years - but they had no one of his caliber.  There was really no one in the league who could guard Sikma - he was just too big and had too many offensive weapons.

Laing - was 6-11 (7-0 depending on who was doing the measuring), their 1973 team went undefeated in the league.  Everyone tried taking the air out of the ball against them (37-34 win at Carthage and a 12-6 win at Carroll on consecutive nights).  In 1972 there was a log jam for second place in the league, but in 73 they had it pretty much to themselves.

The only other year (than 2009) the league has had this many teams as close that I can remember was the 83 season, when their was a possibility of a six-way tie for the league title in the final two weeks of the season.

[AndOne]

With regard to deserving players being left off the CCIW all-conference team, my humble opinion is that North Central's Mitch Raridon deserved strong consideration.
In fact, I compared his (conference only) stats to a couple of very good players from Augie, Wessels and Pelton, who did make the team.

Scoring---Raridon 15th, Wessels 18th, Pelton not in the top 30
Rebounding--Raridon tied for 20th, neither Wessels nor Pelton in the top 20
Assists----Raridon tied for 7th, Wessels 13th, Pelton not in the top 15
FG percentage--Raridon 12th, neither Wessels nor Pelton in the top 15
FT percentage---Wessels 2nd, Raridon 4th, Pelton not in the top 15
Steals---Raridon tied for 4th, Pelton tied for 4th, Wessels 6th 
3 point percentage--Pelton 3rd, Raridon tied for 5th, Wessels not in the top 15
3 point shots made--Raridon tied for 7th, Pelton tird for 12th, Wessels not in top 15
Off rebounds---Wessels tied for 15th, Raridon and Pelton not in the top 15
Minutes played--Raridon 3rd, neither Wessels not Pelton in the top 15

In the above 10 statistical areas, Mitch Raridon ranked highest in 7 of the 10, Wessels in 2, and Pelton in 1.

Both Brett Wessels and Matt Pelton may have well deserved all-conference recognition. However, if they did, so too did Mitch Raridon.

I believe Strzemp and Sexauer are the most questionable selections. Again this is not to say they weren't deserving, but I would suggest Raridon was at least, if not more deserving than the other 4 players mentioned above.

As Greg Sager has discussed this reinforces the fact that to the victors go the spoils. However, I think this is an instance in which statistics, and not just speculation, point to the fact that the voting was a bit misguided. Call me crazy. 

AO---I'll buy your argument that Raridon had a better year than either Pelton or Wessels (your prime examples)---I won't disagree---But, in this case, using comparative stats is not an accurate measure---As we all know, you can make stats appear to be anything you want them to be---Raridon played 36 minutes a game in a 7 man rotation---Wessels played 24 and Pelton played 25 in a 10 man rotation---The stats SHOULD be better for the player with 36 minutes ---That's a fact---I agree that he didn't get the recognition he deserved for his perfomance on the court---I don't agree that the stats should be the major tipping point

Late----

I understand your (good) point.
I do believe that in most categories Raridon's stats were proportionately better as far as having higher numbers in about the same ratio as increased minutes played. I hope I said that correctly.
Additionally, when end of year stats are looked at, the top home run hitter and top goal scorer are not "penalized" for having more at bats or more ice time than their competitors. The bottom line is the achieved number itself. Thats what really counts.

This is not to say Brett Wessels and Matt Pelton didn't deserve the recognition they got. Only that Mitch Raridon was at least as deserving, if not more so. 

I also don't think most people counted on either Chandlor Collins making the 1st team or Robert Strzemp making the team at all.

I think pgkevin was also corect when he said past recognition and reputation play a role in the selection process.

I previously reported that there was a tie for 10th in voting between Ogunleye and Pelton. Each received 4 votes both initially and on the re-vote. Thus the 6 man 2nd team.

[devossed]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/14279-flagler-college-basketball-one-on-one-with-john-pietkiewicz

slightly off-topic, but i figured i'd share considering i just found it...no mention in the article of his 3 days (?) in the CCIW before transferring to prep school...

[petemcb]

Is this the kid who started out at Wheaton and left school quickly?  If it is, imagine Wheaton this year with him starting, pushing somebody like Panner or McCrary to the bench!  Scary.

[Late nite]

With regard to deserving players being left off the CCIW all-conference team, my humble opinion is that North Central's Mitch Raridon deserved strong consideration.
In fact, I compared his (conference only) stats to a couple of very good players from Augie, Wessels and Pelton, who did make the team.

Scoring---Raridon 15th, Wessels 18th, Pelton not in the top 30
Rebounding--Raridon tied for 20th, neither Wessels nor Pelton in the top 20
Assists----Raridon tied for 7th, Wessels 13th, Pelton not in the top 15
FG percentage--Raridon 12th, neither Wessels nor Pelton in the top 15
FT percentage---Wessels 2nd, Raridon 4th, Pelton not in the top 15
Steals---Raridon tied for 4th, Pelton tied for 4th, Wessels 6th 
3 point percentage--Pelton 3rd, Raridon tied for 5th, Wessels not in the top 15
3 point shots made--Raridon tied for 7th, Pelton tird for 12th, Wessels not in top 15
Off rebounds---Wessels tied for 15th, Raridon and Pelton not in the top 15
Minutes played--Raridon 3rd, neither Wessels not Pelton in the top 15

In the above 10 statistical areas, Mitch Raridon ranked highest in 7 of the 10, Wessels in 2, and Pelton in 1.

Both Brett Wessels and Matt Pelton may have well deserved all-conference recognition. However, if they did, so too did Mitch Raridon.

I believe Strzemp and Sexauer are the most questionable selections. Again this is not to say they weren't deserving, but I would suggest Raridon was at least, if not more deserving than the other 4 players mentioned above.

As Greg Sager has discussed this reinforces the fact that to the victors go the spoils. However, I think this is an instance in which statistics, and not just speculation, point to the fact that the voting was a bit misguided. Call me crazy. 

AO---I'll buy your argument that Raridon had a better year than either Pelton or Wessels (your prime examples)---I won't disagree---But, in this case, using comparative stats is not an accurate measure---As we all know, you can make stats appear to be anything you want them to be---Raridon played 36 minutes a game in a 7 man rotation---Wessels played 24 and Pelton played 25 in a 10 man rotation---The stats SHOULD be better for the player with 36 minutes ---That's a fact---I agree that he didn't get the recognition he deserved for his perfomance on the court---I don't agree that the stats should be the major tipping point

Late----

I understand your (good) point.
I do believe that in most categories Raridon's stats were proportionately better as far as having higher numbers in about the same ratio as increased minutes played. I hope I said that correctly.
Additionally, when end of year stats are looked at, the top home run hitter and top goal scorer are not "penalized" for having more at bats or more ice time than their competitors. The bottom line is the achieved number itself. Thats what really counts.

This is not to say Brett Wessels and Matt Pelton didn't deserve the recognition they got. Only that Mitch Raridon was at least as deserving, if not more so. 

I also don't think most people counted on either Chandlor Collins making the 1st team or Robert Strzemp making the team at all.

I think pgkevin was also corect when he said past recognition and reputation play a role in the selection process.

I previously reported that there was a tie for 10th in voting between Ogunleye and Pelton. Each received 4 votes both initially and on the re-vote. Thus the 6 man 2nd team.

IMO, NCC finishing 4th really hurt Raridon---Had they finished 3rd, I believe he would have been selected over one of the Augie guards

[Titan Q]

Marymount upset St. Mary's (Md) tonight in the CAC semis.  St. Mary's is currently #1 in the Mid-Atlantic region.  So, one of 18 Pool C bids already gone.

Another upset in the making...

http://www2.bvu.edu/athletics/stats/live/xlive.htm

Pool C fans really need Buena Vista (20-2 in-region) to win that one.

[dansand]

Marymount upset St. Mary's (Md) tonight in the CAC semis.  St. Mary's is currently #1 in the Mid-Atlantic region.  So, one of 18 Pool C bids already gone.

Another upset in the making...

http://www2.bvu.edu/athletics/stats/live/xlive.htm

Pool C fans really need Buena Vista (20-2 in-region) to win that one.

No such luck...Wartburg wins it, 85-81.

[augiefan]

Not good for Augie, if they don't win the conference tourney.