MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Titan Q]

One more thought on St. Thomas vs Wheaton...

I have been assuming that undefeated St. Thomas is the higher seed in the Midwest/West bracket - the #1 to Wheaton's #2.  Since the committee does not release their seedings, all we really know is that Wheaton went in as the #1-ranked team in the Midwest and St. Thomas #1 in the West (that is where both were in the final released regional rankings).  But we don't know how they seeded St. Thomas vs Wheaton.

As of Selection Sunday, here are the considerations...

1. In-region winning % (St. Thomas 1.000, Wheaton .870)
2. In-region strength of schedule, OWP/OOWP (Wheaton .5982/.5702, St. Thomas .5117/5193)
3. In-region head-to-head (n/a)
4. In-region common opponets (n/a)
5. In-region results vs regionally ranked teams (Wheaton 7-2, St. Thomas 0-0)

There is a chance Wheaton is the #1 seed is in the Bracket of Death.  St. Thomas didn't even have a game vs a regionally ranked team until last night (vs Stevens Point).  Wheaton was 2-1 vs Elmhurst, 2-0 vs Augustana, 2-1 vs North Central, and 1-0 vs Hope (who I assume snuck in the final Great Lakes rankings).  Huge disparity there.

[Greek Tragedy]

I'm surprised he didn't go for 60 when he spends half of each possession under the hoop.    

After watching Skemp for the last 4 years, I'll agree with you here.  It really does seem like he spends a lot of time in the lane.

I'm a Pointer fan, but it's nice to see other posters compliment a fellow WIAC team...though maybe you're just complimenting them because YOU won and they didn't! lol    I KEED, I KEED!

[Titan Q]

The IWU women are hosting the Sectional...

Wash U vs St. Benedict
IWU vs UW-Stevens Point


They went with seeding...Stevens Point would have been the location all 4 could have been bussed to (St. B will have to fly to IWU).

[Titan Q]

Wheaton men to host!

[Pat Coleman]

Interesting that the women could afford to fly an extra team just for the heck of it.

[Titan Q]

Interesting that the women could afford to fly an extra team just for the heck of it.

Pat, do you have perspective of how the Sectionals have been awarded over the course of the last 4-5 years?  Of the criteria, it seems to me that seeding and location are clearly the two biggies.  Do you think seeding is the most important?  Can you think of other examples where they have chosen to go the more expensive route (more flights) in order to reward the higher seed?  Off the top of my head, I can't really remember.  I do know that in 2006 Lawrence got to host (and deservedly so) since they were the highest seed, even though other options would have generated more revenue...again, seeding was the overwhelming factor. 

This Wheaton/St. Thomas thing is confusing because we really have no idea which is seeded higher -- I do think it is possible Wheaton is considered a higher seed.  (With the IWU women, we know they were the highest seed of the 4.)

I really wish they would have to publicly release seeds with the bracket...like every other tournament. 

[Pat Coleman]

Agreed that IWU women were clearly the higher seed. I just found it interesting that the women's committee chose to fly two teams when there was an acceptable host that required just one flight.

Seeding seems to be trumped by geography every time on the men's side. Agreed that I don't know, either, whether they considered UST or Wheaton the top seed, but since SUT hosting required two flights and Wheaton required one, there was no way they were going to do anything else.

I don't think revenue potential (Wheaton holding more people than St. Thomas) is an issue.

I also cannot think of one time where, when the NCAA had a choice, they flew extra men's teams. Someone undoubtedly is going to bring up the Puget Sound sectional, so I'll just remind people now that at the time Lawrence's gym was considered too small and UW-Stevens Point was occupied with a women's sectional that weekend.

When all else is equal, seeding trumps, and I think that's why Richard Stockton hosts, where Farmingdale State is more centrally located.

[sac]

Agreed that IWU women were clearly the higher seed. I just found it interesting that the women's committee chose to fly two teams when there was an acceptable host that required just one flight.

Seeding seems to be trumped by geography every time on the men's side. Agreed that I don't know, either, whether they considered UST or Wheaton the top seed, but since SUT hosting required two flights and Wheaton required one, there was no way they were going to do anything else.

I don't think revenue potential (Wheaton holding more people than St. Thomas) is an issue.

I also cannot think of one time where, when the NCAA had a choice, they flew extra men's teams. Someone undoubtedly is going to bring up the Puget Sound sectional, so I'll just remind people now that at the time Lawrence's gym was considered too small and UW-Stevens Point was occupied with a women's sectional that weekend.

When all else is equal, seeding trumps, and I think that's why Richard Stockton hosts, where Farmingdale State is more centrally located.

This goes way back but in 1998  Hamden-Sydney and Christopher Newport both flew to Holland, Michigan when John Carroll could have hosted with one flight.

I came up with 496.7 miles from Farmville, Va to University Heights, Oh. 

This was also pre-pools era with a smaller tournament field and the 500 mile rule might not have been in affect then.   I also remember JCU was a much lower seed who upset someone to get to the Sectionals and Hope was the 2 or 3 seed going into the tournament.  Hope was simply the highest remaining seed..........this may have been back when they rotated hostings between regions and it was just the Great Lakes turn.

They certainly didn't do it for revenue, this was one of the years Hope had to play at its on campus facility with a total capacity of about 1300.

[Titan Q]

This goes way back but in 1998  Hamden-Sydney and Christopher Newport both flew to Holland, Michigan when John Carroll could have hosted with one flight.

I came up with 496.7 miles from Farmville, Va to University Heights, Oh. 

This was also pre-pools era with a smaller tournament field and the 500 mile rule might not have been in affect then.   I also remember JCU was a much lower seed who upset someone to get to the Sectionals and Hope was the 2 or 3 seed going into the tournament.  Hope was simply the highest remaining seed..........this may have been back when they rotated hostings between regions and it was just the Great Lakes turn.

They certainly didn't do it for revenue, this was one of the years Hope had to play at its on campus facility with a total capacity of about 1300.

As you mention, that was under the old system, which was very different.  Back then, each region was paired with another for 2 years, and they rotated hosting the Sectional.  As long as the facility was good and hotels were available, the highest seed from the host region got the nod.

For example, in 1996 and 1997 the Midwest and South were paired.  In '96 the Midwest was predetermined to travel, so IWU, Wash U, and Christopher Newport traveled to host Roanoke for the Sectional.  In '97 it was the Midwest's turn to host.  Methodist, Bridgewater, and Chicago traveled to IWU.

1998 was one of the last years of that system...

http://www.d3hoops.com/archives/mncaa98.htm

Note that under that system, all Round 1 and Round 2 games were within region (Midwest vs Midwest, Great Lakes vs Great Lakes, etc.), and all Round 3 games were across the paired regions.

That was apples and oranges to this system and this topic, because, again, it was predetermined which region would host and generally, the highest seed left between the 2 got it.

When the current method of bracketing came about, I thought it would be a big improvement.  Now, I am not so sure.  At least under the old system, you had different regions playing each other in the Sweet 16 games (as opposed to Wheaton vs Wash U and St. Thomas vs Puget Sound).  Sometimes I almost miss the old way.

[Fawkes316]

Interesting that the women could afford to fly an extra team just for the heck of it.

Perhaps there's room built into the sectional's budget for one flight, but not for two. Since IWU hosting only requires one flight, they host. Since St. Thomas would require two flights, Wheaton hosts.

[CCIWchamps]

There were a few questionable calls but I thought that as a whole, they went both ways.  I liked seeing the OB call in the 2nd half over-ruled by the ref from the other side. 

That's part of the problem- they were missing the calls in the areas they should've made.  The far court ref overrules the baseline and near side official?  The far court ref makes goaltending ruling when Big Country slaps the backboard 2 feet away from the baseline official?  While it did go both ways, the refs evoked memories of Wheaton @ North Central- at times letting them play and then countering by dictating the tempo with their whistles on automatic.  It should be said, however, with the game clock ticking down at the end of regulation and OT, they did not make the game end of free throws.  Good work on their part.

[chizwiz]

I'd like to have people weigh in on this discussion that's happening in the MAC-Freedom board.



              "I think its funny how you (the chairman) like to do comparisons with two players (IE - Tucker/Pointer over the past month) and you only pick out the stats that support your argument.

I am not here to debate Darnell Braswell vs. Kent Raymond.  Or for that matter Darnell Braswell with any other player in the country.  I'll take everyone's word for it that Kent Raymond is one of the if not the best player in the country.  But I will follow that by saying, I'd absolutely LOVE to see Braswell get a chance to play against him, cause that means we are in the Final Four.

But since you did compare the two and only picked out the stats you wanted, allow me to take it further.

Braswell - EIGHT DOUBLE-DOUBLES...averages 7.7 rebounds per game (45 total steals)...72 assists
Raymond - 3.2 rebounds per game (24 total steals)...86 assists...unable to find double-double stats (likely none with that RPG)

Looking at the numbers only (and I stress the word looking cause its tough to compare two players via a stat sheet only), Raymond seems to be a better shooter.  Darnell clearly is a better rebounder and has almost double the steals.  Slight edge to Raymond in assists.  In my opinion to be considered for All-American status, I feel as though you need to be a complete player, which I am sure Raymond is.  Braswell definitely is.

Also in my opinion, and having followed the Division III basketball scene very closely over the last 12 years...Braswell is the best guard defender I have ever seen.  He works harder on the defensive side of the ball than anyone I have ever watched play.  And that is not even close to an exaggeration." - by BJ-DSU SID

[Titan Q]

I'm pretty sure all anyone can do is compare stats...I doubt anyone has seen 'em both.


Darnell Braswell, DeSales (6-1 Jr): 16.9 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 2.5 apg, 0.9 A:TO, .408 FG, .327 3-pt, .637 FT
Kent Raymond, Wheaton (6-3 Sr): 24.0 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 3.3 apg, 1.9 A:TO, .502 FG, .377 3-pt, .890 FT

[Mugsy]

I'm pretty sure all anyone can do is compare stats...I doubt anyone has seen 'em both.


Darnell Braswell, DeSales (6-1 Jr): 16.9 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 2.5 apg, 0.9 A:TO, .408 FG, .327 3-pt, .637 FT
Kent Raymond, Wheaton (6-3 Sr): 24.0 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 3.3 apg, 1.9 A:TO, .502 FG, .377 3-pt, .890 FT

Most difficult factor to weigh is relative strength of competition.

[Titan Q]

I'm pretty sure all anyone can do is compare stats...I doubt anyone has seen 'em both.


Darnell Braswell, DeSales (6-1 Jr): 16.9 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 2.5 apg, 0.9 A:TO, .408 FG, .327 3-pt, .637 FT
Kent Raymond, Wheaton (6-3 Sr): 24.0 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 3.3 apg, 1.9 A:TO, .502 FG, .377 3-pt, .890 FT

Most difficult factor to weigh is relative strength of competition.

Massey has Wheaton's schedule #11 in Division III...DeSales #215.

http://www.mratings.com/rate.php?lg=cb&yr=2009&sub=III&mid=6