MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[shepherd]

For those of you wondering about the 15 second out of bounds reversal call.  I freeze framed through the sequence.  The ball was first touched by Raymond.  The ball then went by Raymond's hand towards the Wash U player.  At this point you can see Kent Raymond's entire open front palm in front of the ball.  I couldn't see the ball come off the Wash U player's hand but it probably did because the ball changes direction out of bounds.  Even if Wheaton got the ball back shooting like they were it just wouldn't have mattered.
Congratulations to Wash U they definitely deserved to win this game.  I hope Wheaton puts them on their schedule more often.  Playing a team of that caliber can just make you a better team.

[titanhammer]

Despite what happened tonight...or tomorrow night, my hope has been that the winner of this bracket is a convincing winner in the final four.  If not, the committee will continue to put the higher D3.com seeds in the same bracket.

For those "how often does this happen" people out there...when is the last time there was an undefeated #1 in mens and womens teams that had a chance to win in the final 8?

[usee]

Congratulations to WashU. They were a better team. great team defense. stats were dead even but WashU shoots 50% and get the win. Great game and the best team won tonight.

Wash U. was definitely the best team tonight, but I'm not convinced they were the better team. Wheaton had a lot of missed opportunities down the stretch and could have been in a much better position if a couple more shots had gone down in the first half. That said, credit to Wash U. for 40 minutes of great defense. They are a great team and I wish them the best going forward.

Wheaton just scored 52 pts in their own gym. That's not good enough to win a national championship. This washu team has been to salem and their defense and experience won tonight. They were definitely better.

No argument here except for the last sentence. I think Wheaton wins at least 5 out of 10 against them, it just didn't happen for them tonight.

that's a pretty lame card to play. They don't get 10 chances. And if they did, it certainly wouldn't be in their own gym, in front of their own fans. It couldn't have been a better set up for Wheaton's best team ever and they scored 52 points and didn't get it done. WashU came into unfriendly confines and did what veteran teams do. Raymond needed a big game from Wiele and the big guy couldn't score against a lineup he should have dominated. He missed a critical put back down the stretch that should have been a gimme. They had 1 chance and didn't get it done. The better team won.

You can break it down. Wheaton scored 26 points each half. WashU scored 31 and 24. If Wheaton plays better defense in the first half when Wallis and Thompson were going off, maybe its different. WashU was more experienced and took it to the Thunder.

[CCIWchamps]

Pretty tough to watch the Thunder tonight--great defensive effort, but they were incredibly tight offensively.  Some of that goes to Wash U's defense, but I think what we saw was summed up in the first half when McCrary had 2 free throws and was so tense that he barely reached the front of the rim with both of them. (I assume it was a technical foul or flagrant foul but I was just tuning in)  The Thunder's young players tonight exhibited the fruit of one of the negative sides of Bill Harris' coaching philosophy, which applies to all but his star players. It is fear-of-failure/fear of punishment based, and although I don't believe that fear is ever a good motivator to allow one to freely play their best, this especially applies to big games.   Offensively Wheaton stunk up their own gym tonight.  They have relied all season on their standout freshmen to make big contributions, and tonight they were not given "permission" to work through a few moments of tightness into a point where they could contribute.  Wheaton was thus reduced to essentially a 6 man rotation, and that just doesn't cut it
with a team of Wash U's quality.  It is interesting that his other team that had National Champion potential (in '95 or '96, a one loss team that had my nephew by marriage, Aaron Messner playing for it) had a similar performance in a second round game--they all tensed up and had a horrendous shooting night, I suspect for similar reasons.  I'm sure all the CCIW experts remember who they were playing, but was it Wash U then as well?

Since we are all wearing our hearts on our sleeves here and typing out our frustrations, I think your claim about Harris' coaching style is ridiculous. The guys have played for him all year. 5-6 times a week, so dontthink they aren't used to whatever method he uses. If they get pulled for doing something, that's how it always is. Have they ever responded to getting benches by bouncing back? You bet they have. They are great kids who are smart enough to make adjustments, and Harris is a great coach who gets extremely hard working teams to keep fighting and stay in games. I think it's absurd to throw your coach under the bus when your argument concerns young players getting psyched out in the 3rd round of the NCAAs playing the defending national champs.  If they were nervous and tight, isn't that normal?  McCrary short arms a free throw and it's the coach's fault?  Please.

If you want to blame someone, blame the crowd who waited 30 minutes to start getting vocal. So much for the advantage.  But please don't let your frustration cloud your judgment about the team and the coach that gave such a great effort this year.  They were so much fun to watch and that is testimony to their talent, coaching, and hard work.  They played amazing D in the 2nd half against a potent O.  They hit a few more jumpers and they win.  Wheaton could've won it, even losing by 3 on 42% from the floor.

Congrats to Wash U. I believe they will take down St Thpmad tomorrow.

[Titan Q]

Random thoughts from the game tonight...

* Wash U, which has been to the last two NCAA Division III Final Fours, sure looked like the more experienced team tonight.  The Bears played with poise and composure...Wheaton did not.

* Sean Wallis was outstanding tonight.  In addition to being calm and cool with the ball all night long, he also aggressively looked for his shot.

* 6-5 power forward Cam Smith defended Kent Raymond about as well as I've ever seen anyone defend him.  Smith had zero points, but had a monster game for Wash U.

* On Wheaton's offensive end, Andy Wiele was beaten all night long down low by Wash U's big guys.  Wiele could not find a way to get position, and never made himself the low post threat the Thunder needed.

* At all times, it seemed like Wheaton had 3 players on the floor hoping Kent Raymond would do his thing.  Panner looked for his shot, and had a really nice flurry in the 2nd, but every other Thunder player looked scared.

* Wheaton's freshmen looked like freshmen.

* Mark Edwards is about as good as it gets in Division III.  If you want to see the definition of "well-coached", check out a Wash U game.


Wash U does not have a Kent Raymond, but they are more balanced than Wheaton, more experienced, play better defense, and proved tonight they are the better team.  Wash U is better than Wheaton by just the smallest margin (Wash U's #2 ranking to Wheaton's 3 sounds right to me), but it is enough margin that it mattered tonight on Wheaton's floor.   

I was extremely impressed by St. Thomas.  In the neutral court Sectional final, I favor Wash U because of their experience, but not by more than 2 points.  The Tommies don't have any superstars, but they play wonderfully together as a team.

[CCIW]

Pretty tough to watch the Thunder tonight--great defensive effort, but they were incredibly tight offensively.  Some of that goes to Wash U's defense, but I think what we saw was summed up in the first half when McCrary had 2 free throws and was so tense that he barely reached the front of the rim with both of them. (I assume it was a technical foul or flagrant foul but I was just tuning in)  The Thunder's young players tonight exhibited the fruit of one of the negative sides of Bill Harris' coaching philosophy, which applies to all but his star players. It is fear-of-failure/fear of punishment based, and although I don't believe that fear is ever a good motivator to allow one to freely play their best, this especially applies to big games.   Offensively Wheaton stunk up their own gym tonight.  They have relied all season on their standout freshmen to make big contributions, and tonight they were not given "permission" to work through a few moments of tightness into a point where they could contribute.  Wheaton was thus reduced to essentially a 6 man rotation, and that just doesn't cut it with a team of Wash U's quality.  It is interesting that his other team that had National Champion potential (in '95 or '96, a one loss team that had my nephew by marriage, Aaron Messner playing for it) had a similar performance in a second round game--they all tensed up and had a horrendous shooting night, I suspect for similar reasons.  I'm sure all the CCIW experts remember who they were playing, but was it Wash U then as well?

Completely agree.  For better of worst, Harris is very much a controller type of guy.  The result is a tight team trying to please the coach in big games.  He recruits good players, so he will continue to be successful, but he will never get the full potential from his team.  He pulls players who are hot and show some emotions....it's like he wants to make sure his players don't get too excited.  Just his style of coaching.

[Titan Q]

It has been a pleasure watching Kent Raymond play basketball.  He is an incredible competitor and embodies everything that is special about Division III athletics.    

[CCIWchamps]

In looking at the box score, it really was a defensive battle.  The one thing that really pops out is that there were only 15 free throws between the teams.  I don't know whether to credit the refs for letting them play or for the teams playing so hard on D and the offenses responding by being patient.  I'd like to have seen Wiele get the ball more down low, especially after Nading picked up 2 quick fouls in the first minute.  However, the Wash U defense rotated so well that it both kept Wiele from an easy kick out and kept him from going to the hole without a foul opportunity.    Granted Raymond shot 7 of the 15 in the game, but I think he deserved a few more calls going to the hole.  I agree with the assessment that the burden fell back to Raymond to carry the team, and I think he responded very strongly with a few runs, as did Panner.  Wiele's boards were great, especially the handful on the offensive end. 

Really a great game as promoted.  Now if someone will just take a look at Raymond's last 3 on the tape and tell me if he got it partially blocked....

[Gregory Sager]

If I come up with anything, I'll be sure to look for not just the only Bills hoodie in the house, but possibly in existence.

You've obviously never been to western New York, where the Bills hoodie is so ubiquitous that girls wear them over their prom dresses. (And they usually improve the look, too. )

[titan2000]

Pat and Q did a nice job calling the game.

Man it hurts to see WashU moving on.  I hope they win it all, its just, well...... 

[WahooThunder]

Congratulations to WashU. They were a better team. great team defense. stats were dead even but WashU shoots 50% and get the win. Great game and the best team won tonight.

Wash U. was definitely the best team tonight, but I'm not convinced they were the better team. Wheaton had a lot of missed opportunities down the stretch and could have been in a much better position if a couple more shots had gone down in the first half. That said, credit to Wash U. for 40 minutes of great defense. They are a great team and I wish them the best going forward.

Wheaton just scored 52 pts in their own gym. That's not good enough to win a national championship. This washu team has been to salem and their defense and experience won tonight. They were definitely better.

No argument here except for the last sentence. I think Wheaton wins at least 5 out of 10 against them, it just didn't happen for them tonight.

that's a pretty lame card to play. They don't get 10 chances. And if they did, it certainly wouldn't be in their own gym, in front of their own fans. It couldn't have been a better set up for Wheaton's best team ever and they scored 52 points and didn't get it done. WashU came into unfriendly confines and did what veteran teams do. Raymond needed a big game from Wiele and the big guy couldn't score against a lineup he should have dominated. He missed a critical put back down the stretch that should have been a gimme. They had 1 chance and didn't get it done. The better team won.

You can break it down. Wheaton scored 26 points each half. WashU scored 31 and 24. If Wheaton plays better defense in the first half when Wallis and Thompson were going off, maybe its different. WashU was more experienced and took it to the Thunder.

Its not a lame card at all. If you think so, it is because you misunderstand what I am trying to say. I'm not arguing that it matters how many times they would win out of ten, because obviously all that matters is what happened on the floor last night. All I'm saying is that there is a difference between who is the better team and who is the best team on a given night. Obviously, the latter one is what matters, but that doesn't mean the two may not be different. When a 15-seed beats a 2-seed it doesn't mean the 15-seed is the better team, it just means they played better that game (although this was obviously a match-up of 1-seed caliber teams). I'm not trying to defend Wheaton's performance last night nor am I trying to take anything away from the team who clearly earned their victory, far from it, I'm just saying that its all the more disappointing for Wheaton because I still believe they were the better team, and they just didn't play like it.

[WahooThunder]

Raymond needed a big game from Wiele and the big guy couldn't score against a lineup he should have dominated. He missed a critical put back down the stretch that should have been a gimme. They had 1 chance and didn't get it done. The better team won.

Do you not see the logical inconsistency of this argument? Even you believe Wiele should have dominated. If that happened, Wheaton would have won, so how can you say Wash U. is the better team?

[Titan Q]

I'm not trying to defend Wheaton's performance last night nor am I trying to take anything away from the team who clearly earned their victory, far from it, I'm just saying that its all the more disappointing for Wheaton because I still believe they were the better team, and they just didn't play like it.

I don't think many impartial observers at the game last night left feeling Wheaton was the better team.  The way everyone but Raymond and Panner looked out there on the floor - in contrast to the poise displayed by just about every Wash U player who logged minutes - was striking.

On paper, maybe you could argue Wheaton is a little better because of this or that reason, but when the game was played in real life, and not on paper, it was pretty obvious which team was better.  Again, by the smallest of margins, but in my eyes, there is pretty clear separation between Wheaton and Wash U.

I stated several times on Hoopsville this season that Wheaton and Wash U were very even, but that I felt Wheaton was a tad better due to the Raymond factor.  I would have favored Wheaton on a neutral floor and I certainly favored the Thunder last night at King Arena.  It's nice when you get to see a real matchup of teams you have put against each other in your head all season long.  For me, I realized I was wrong about my Wheaton vs Wash U take.

[Titan Q]

Granted Raymond shot 7 of the 15 in the game, but I think he deserved a few more calls going to the hole.

I can't think of a single call Raymond did not get that he should have.

[CCIWchamps]

Raymond needed a big game from Wiele and the big guy couldn't score against a lineup he should have dominated. He missed a critical put back down the stretch that should have been a gimme. They had 1 chance and didn't get it done. The better team won.

You can break it down. Wheaton scored 26 points each half. WashU scored 31 and 24. If Wheaton plays better defense in the first half when Wallis and Thompson were going off, maybe its different. WashU was more experienced and took it to the Thunder.

How was Wiele supposed to dominate against a constant double and often triple team on the block?  Great defensive scheme by Wash U.  They prepared like the defending national champions should and executed pretty darn well.  And when you say "IF Wheaton plays better defense in the first half..." all you are talking about is 1 more stop, or 1 less bucket.  That's the thing is that the game still came down to one possession and just 3 points.  Wheaton hits one extra three or a layup and a free throw, and we're talking about a win after the exact same game otherwise.  It was a defensive battle, and Wash U held on for the final lead.