MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[augiefan]

Nobody has said much about the final minutes of the game, in which Wash U. gave Wheaton every opportunity to win it. Wheaton had multiple possessions when they were down 1 with the ball and could not get it done. They did finally get the lead after 4 or 5 missed opportunities but promptly loss it again and never scored another point.

The final seconds were not good for the Bears. They could not get the ball in bounds and wasted all of their time outs. Wallis also missed a game deciding FT (his one off moment of the night), but Raymond missed a shot we are all used to him making in game deciding situations. I also thought the Wheaton possession prior to that was a disaster for the Thunder. They tossed the ball around until the shot clock was just about gone leading to a forced shot by someone other than Raymond. Early in that possession a Wheaton perimeter player missed what looked to be an open Raymond driving the lane for what could have probably been a layup and a 2 or 3 point play.

Finally, with 1.2 seconds left the Bears tried to throw deep from under the Wheaton basket to run out the clock, but the Wash U. player intended to receive the pass fell down. The ball was headed out of bounds, which would have given Wheaton the ball under their basket to set up for one last shot to tie. Instead of letting the ball roll out of bounds Wiele picked it up near the wash U. FT line and tossed a prayer shot that never had a chance.

Bottom line this game should have been played in the FF. It remains a travesty that this bracket was so top heavy with great teams.

[thundermike]

A great game last night, but it was tough to walk out of that gym knowing that this Thunder team wont take the floor again. But if Wheaton had to lose, Wash U is certainly a worthy opponent to fall to. The Bears played with poise, experience, and most of all class. Wash U has a great team and I would be shocked if they lost the rest of the way--even tonight. There just are not many teams that play D like that.

Wheaton didn't do themselves any favors shooting the ball last night, but their D kept them in the game to the point where they had a chance to win the game. I give credit to Wash U's defense for Wheaton's poor shooting--the Thunder had to work hard for every shot. I think the same is true of Wash U, but they showed why they are the champs by knocking down some more shots.

I really can't believe how many guys the Bears will return next year   Look out DIII!

It's been a pleasure to watch this Wheaton team play. Along with every other Wheaton fan I feel that this is not how the season was "supposed" to end, but this team has nothing to hang its head about. They went 26-4 and won one of the nation's top conferences, despite playing a good portion of the season without having the starting 5 at full strength. And they advanced to the Sweet 16--I don't know the exact number, but there were a lot of teams already sitting at home while the Thunder still had the chance to play.

Kent Raymond has been a privilege to watch over the last 2 years. The guy has his name in more than 30 game, season, and career records at Wheaton. That is special. Thank you Kent.

Andy Wiele really turned himself into a great player the last two years of his career. He is #6 on Wheaton's career rebounding list.

Tom Sovocool is a guy that wont show up in stat sheets or scouting reports, but as someone who is very close to this team let me tell you that Wheaton would not have achieved the success that it did without Tom on the roster.

I suppose there is a chance Ben Panner will be back, but he was honored on senior night so it's possible he wont be. Talk about underrated and you are talking about BP. He always quietly put up great numbers and played great defense. His game at Carthage this year was unbelievable, and last night he kept the team in the game.

My knowledge is too limited to say that this was the best Wheaton team ever, but I do know that this team was special and fun to watch.

[Scrub023]

First of all I want to concur that this was a terrific basketball game. It demonstrated all that is good about college basketball. Two well coached teams playing there hearts out for love of the game.

This was a great game to watch. Lots big shots and scoring streaks towards the end of the game. Wash U just had theirs at the most clutch periods in the game, as well as great defense as soon as Wheaton went up by 1 for the first time in the game.

For a pre-season All American, Andy Wiele was, lets say, inconsistent this season. While he would have a great game one night, he would virtually disappear the next. There were several times this season where it appeared he was laboring to make it up and down the floor. Then, at the win or go home point of the season, he fails to step up and provide the inside half of what should be one of the most dynamic inside-outside duos in the country. Even an All-American caliber player isn't always going to do everything well, but he should be able to either find a way to get to the hole and finish, or kick it out for the open shot if he is doubled.

Tough night for Andy Wiele. One reason why he was probably having trouble was all the help defense coming down on him. Great job by Wash U to force him to make tough passes back out, but even if he did get it out, the Wheaton guards just weren't hitting their threes. Those threes need to be made to take that double pressure off of Wiele so he can go 1 on 1 with the lesser bigs from Wash U. Smith played good defense throughout the game but was a pest. One thing that seemed very similar to the Wash U v. Lawrence game was that Smith had been grabbing and pushing Raymond while he was off the ball all night, just like they did to shut Ryan Kroeger down in their LU game. Its tough to get open when your getting bumped and grabbed all game and not getting any of those calls. Still, the Wash U guards really did step it up.

[augiefan]

One aspect of the evening that made it even more special was the fact that by pure coincidence we sat at end court in front of a father and son who were pretty neutral but mildly rooting for Wheaton. During a break we struck up a conversation with the dad, and I mentioned that although I had attended Wash U. our DIII favorite team is Augustana. Strange as life is sometimes, the father and son sitting behind us ere Augie great Drew Carstens and his dad. They mentioned that former Augie PG Jim Thomas was also at the game, and that the guys from that Augie team are pretty much all still in the Chicago area and still hang together on a regular basis.

A lot of good conversation followed, including discussion of my belief that the Drew Carsten Augie teams were the best DIII team ever to not play in an NCAA tourney game thanks primarily to the great IWU teams of that same period.

[augiefan]

I'm guessing tickets for tonight's game will not be difficult to come by. A shame if there is not a good turnout, as this may be the true DIII championship game tonight.

[Titan Q]

Looking at how the games have played out in the tournament, and to some degree the season as a whole,  I'd rank the teams in the Midwest/West bracket something like...

1. TBD tonight
2. TBD tonight
3. Wheaton
4. UW-Stevens Point
5. UW-Platteville
6. UW-Whitewater
7. Lawrence
8. Elmhurst
9. Puget Sound
10. Whitworth
11. Hope
12. Cornell
13. Claremont-Mudd-Scripps
14. Aurora
15. Fontbonne


The problem, as has been discussed since the bracket came out, is that there are about 6 Final Four caliber teams in the bracket...and only one can get to Salem.  That Wheaton/Wash U game just should not have been played in the Round of 16.

[Titan Q]

I'm guessing tickets for tonight's game will not be difficult to come by. A shame if there is not a good turnout, as this may be the true DIII championship game tonight.

I think tonight's winner will clearly be the favorite in Salem, but in a one game situation, anything can happen. I don't think anyone had Catholic as the favorite in Salem in 2001, or Virginia Wesleyan in 2006, for example.

Tonight will start a lot of talk about how either Wash U or St. Thomas is a huge favorite in Salem, and I'll just remind everyone that the other 3 teams there next weekend will be very good teams, capable of beating anybody.  It can't be disputed that the Midwest/West bracket was ridiculously stacked, and that the team that survives it will have had the toughest road to Salem, but that doesn't mean St. Thomas or Wash U will roll.

[CCIWchamps]

In particular I'm thinking of a drive in the first half where he was checked in

Pat and I both quickly agreed on the broadcast that it was a good no-call.  Raymond was out of control on that drive and initiated all of the contact.  It would have been a bad block call, and it would have been a bad charge.  We both felt it was the perfect no-call, with the ball going to Wheaton baseline out-of-bounds.

Ah, maybe from the sideline view.  But from the Wheaton endzone he got a perfect give and go pass, jumped to shoot, and suddenly the ball is dislodged from his hands and he's a foot to the right of where he had jumped.  It falls under the "no-call" blanket, I'll give you that considering that the calls were pretty consistent the rest of the night.  But I do think it wouldn't have been a stretch to call the hack and push.

[CCIWchamps]

How was Wiele supposed to dominate against a constant double and often triple team on the block?  Great defensive scheme by Wash U.  They prepared like the defending national champions should and executed pretty darn well.  And when you say "IF Wheaton plays better defense in the first half..." all you are talking about is 1 more stop, or 1 less bucket.  That's the thing is that the game still came down to one possession and just 3 points.  Wheaton hits one extra three or a layup and a free throw, and we're talking about a win after the exact same game otherwise.  It was a defensive battle, and Wash U held on for the final lead.  

Wiele spent most of the game one-on-one with Zach Kelly - who Wiele is just simply a bigger, stronger better basketball player than - and he couldn't get position on the blocks.  Sure Wash U doubled when Wiele got the ball, but the reason Wiele was ineffective last night was that, one-on-one, he couldn't get himself open in the low post.

That's a fair point.  He did get the ball a few times and made decent adjustments to kick out.  But you're right in that had he established a lower post, he might've gotten several more chip shots even with a double team.

[Titan Q]

and TQ, you don't even mention last year's final four hero Ross Kelley, who hardly saw floor time last night, but likely could have played 20 minutes if either Wallis or Thompson had gotten in foul trouble......

Actually, I think Wash U needs a solid recruiting class THIS year - the Sophomore class this season seems weak - only Knepper has played - and none of the Freshmen backcourt has seen real time - so in reality after next season, it's Toth Richter a relatively soft Knepper - that's it.  No athletic Cam Smith types to guard and rebound, no point, no depth  -  unless Mark is keeping some of his bench under wraps.......

I know Wash U is recruiting a PG from Parkway South H.S. in St. Louis by the name of Ben Hoener.  As of a couple weeks ago, he was down to D2 Truman State and Wash U.  I happened to see Hoener while watching another St. Louis area kid who had expressed interest in IWU.  Hoener is very similiar to IWU's Travis Rosenkranz - a small PG, but very quick, and a big-time H.S. scorer (one of the top big school scorers in STL this year).  If he chooses Wash U, I can see him backing up Wallis next year and starting as a soph.

[CCIWchamps]

Granted Raymond shot 7 of the 15 in the game, but I think he deserved a few more calls going to the hole. 

Are we playing the entitlement card here CCIW?
In MHO, Kent Raymond may very well just be the best DIII player in the country, but the one "negative" aspect of his game has been his constant harping at the officials over virtually every call that has gone against him throughout the course of his fabulous career. It was exceptionally rare when you didn't see Kent complain to the refs after being called for a foul. He did this even in cases when the call against him was so obviously correct that even Coach Harris wouldn't argue the call. Often times, he would even complain about calls that went against teammates. Sure, there were calls that went against him that were ticky-tacky or maybe weren't even fouls at all, but those were more than offset by the offensive fouls he got away with despite constantly leading with his forearm when dribbling/driving the ball.

Other CCIW posters? Agree/Disagree?

CCIW---Is it possible that Wash U "deserved" some calls they didn't get, or was it just Raymond and Wheaton who got shafted by the refs?

I made my argument about 2 specific calls- a non-call and a charge.  I'll leave it at that.  
Kent's great at creating contact in his approach to the hole, making it virtually impossible not to call "on the arm" fouls on his defenders.  As well, he's pretty good at slicing through low post D which results in flailing shots as his legs get clipped.  Those seem to be easier calls to make, though they are actually less often called.  In my opinion, he could've gotten more calls for him that he didn't get.  

As for your "leading with his forearm" argument, I don't agree that he does anything more in this area that you see in any other player.  And that he argues calls he disagrees with isn't even worth discussing.  Until you see him pout, cuss out an official, throw a mouthguard or a headband, or something like laugh at an official to his face- anything that results in a T- I'm fine watching an extremely competitive player talk to an official.  He's going to be an intricate part of each game so he needs to know what's being called and why.  

Are you a Wheaton fan?  I ask because I'm wondering how many games you've seen him to make the statement "throughout the course of his fabulous career."  

[CCIWchamps]

A great game last night, but it was tough to walk out of that gym knowing that this Thunder team wont take the floor again. But if Wheaton had to lose, Wash U is certainly a worthy opponent to fall to. The Bears played with poise, experience, and most of all class. Wash U has a great team and I would be shocked if they lost the rest of the way--even tonight. There just are not many teams that play D like that.

I think the tone of the game was really set when McCrary missed the 2 FT's after the intentional foul call on his break away.  Wash U controlled the tempo by giving up an intentional foul instead of a free layup, and it worked.  Wheaton misses a momentum change, and Wash U realizes it is the more composed, experienced team on the floor.  The PG was very cool headed, and did well to pop the lead back to 6 or 7 whenever Wheaton would whittle it away.  I also applaud Wash U for their class.  I look forward to seeing them knock off St. Thomas, who in my one viewing of them (last night), seem to be pretty cocky and enjoying the ride on the undefeated train a little too much.

[cardinalfanrochelle]

Thundermike,
                     How can you call Andy Wiele a great player? He was lucky to make 2nd all-conference( 3rd team yes) with all the hype about him bulking up and being a stud he disappeared in more than 60 % of the games and the amount of time on the floor he looked winded. He is a good player 3rd team yes,good board man at 6'8 should be.

[WahooThunder]

Thundermike,
                     How can you call Andy Wiele a great player? He was lucky to make 2nd all-conference( 3rd team yes) with all the hype about him bulking up and being a stud he disappeared in more than 60 % of the games and the amount of time on the floor he looked winded. He is a good player 3rd team yes,good board man at 6'8 should be.

At the beginning of the year, he was worthy not just of All-Conference, but All-American recognition. I wonder if it is fair to question whether he was ever the same player again after his injury though.

Before the injury he was averaging 19 points and 9.4 rebounds per game and shooting close to 70% from the free throw line. Needless to say, he never really approached those numbers after coming back and with the exception of the second half of the Elmhurst game in the CCIW tournament, I don't think I ever saw him play with the same confidence again. I would be interested to know what some of the others on here who were able to follow Wheaton more closely think about this though.

[usee]

I agree I don't think Kent Raymond is a complainer to the officials. He definitely talks to them all the time but that doesn't make him a complainer. Unless you hear him complaining to the ref (which he does do) I don't think you can make the statement that he is "harping at the officials". For all you know he is telling them they made a good call. He obviously works hard to establish a rapport with the officials and likely benefits from calls because of it. Doesn't mean he is complaining.