MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[OurHouse]

I agree I don't think Kent Raymond is a complainer to the officials. He definitely talks to them all the time but that doesn't make him a complainer. Unless you hear him complaining to the ref (which he does do) I don't think you can make the statement that he is "harping at the officials". For all you know he is telling them they made a good call. He obviously works hard to establish a rapport with the officials and likely benefits from calls because of it. Doesn't mean he is complaining.

[/quote]

It wasn't the best game last night but great atmosphere - if Panner or Raymond shoot above sub-40%, they win. Wiele did not show up. Go UW!

[Above The Rim]

Granted Raymond shot 7 of the 15 in the game, but I think he deserved a few more calls going to the hole. 

Are we playing the entitlement card here CCIW?
In MHO, Kent Raymond may very well just be the best DIII player in the country, but the one "negative" aspect of his game has been his constant harping at the officials over virtually every call that has gone against him throughout the course of his fabulous career. It was exceptionally rare when you didn't see Kent complain to the refs after being called for a foul. He did this even in cases when the call against him was so obviously correct that even Coach Harris wouldn't argue the call. Often times, he would even complain about calls that went against teammates. Sure, there were calls that went against him that were ticky-tacky or maybe weren't even fouls at all, but those were more than offset by the offensive fouls he got away with despite constantly leading with his forearm when dribbling/driving the ball.

Other CCIW posters? Agree/Disagree?

CCIW---Is it possible that Wash U "deserved" some calls they didn't get, or was it just Raymond and Wheaton who got shafted by the refs?

I made my argument about 2 specific calls- a non-call and a charge.  I'll leave it at that.  
Kent's great at creating contact in his approach to the hole, making it virtually impossible not to call "on the arm" fouls on his defenders.  As well, he's pretty good at slicing through low post D which results in flailing shots as his legs get clipped.  Those seem to be easier calls to make, though they are actually less often called.  In my opinion, he could've gotten more calls for him that he didn't get.  

As for your "leading with his forearm" argument, I don't agree that he does anything more in this area that you see in any other player.  And that he argues calls he disagrees with isn't even worth discussing.  Until you see him pout, cuss out an official, throw a mouthguard or a headband, or something like laugh at an official to his face- anything that results in a T- I'm fine watching an extremely competitive player talk to an official.  He's going to be an intricate part of each game so he needs to know what's being called and why.  

Are you a Wheaton fan?  I ask because I'm wondering how many games you've seen him to make the statement "throughout the course of his fabulous career."  

CCIW--

I am a basketball fan. I have seen Kent play about 15 games. Don't you think his career has been fabulous?

[Gregory Sager]

The site crashed last night and I thus lost the long post I was writing about last night's game. I'm sure that you're all crushed.

Anyway, Bob, USee, and augiefan touched on most of the points I wanted to make. I'll just add a few more:

* It was a very exciting game, but I wouldn't characterize it as a well-played one. Wheaton's subpar performance has been well-documented here, but Wash U has certainly played better games as well. For as phenomenal and Stocktonesque a game as Sean Wallis had -- contrary to form, the best player on the floor last night wore #12 in green, not #24 in white -- knocking down off-balance 22-foot leaners and throwing one uncanny pass after another, he should've had a dozen assists rather than a mere six. That's because his teammates fumbled a number of his passes (Aaron Thompson, especially) and often failed to finish at the rim after getting a terrific setup pass from Wallis. The Bears blew a lot more easy points than did Wheaton, and the game should not have been that close.

Indicative of this was the stretch in the middle of the first half in which Wheaton was held scoreless for 3:18. As tentative as Wheaton looked at that point -- the hosts had only scored ten points, and Raymond hadn't really gotten going -- the Bears could've deeply messed with the heads of Harris & Co. by going on a run at that point. But they only scored three points in that 3:18 stretch, missing five shots and turning the ball over once in the process. It was a prime example of a wasted opportunity for the Bears. And augiefan amply chronicled another wasted opportunity for Wash U -- the endgame, in which it seemed like the Bears were doing everything they possibly could to give Wheaton a chance to take the game into overtime.

* Wash U did play good defense throughout the game, which certainly held down Wheaton's scoring, but a lot of Wheaton's offensive woes appeared to be just plain ol' tightness. The Sonic Atmospheric Disturbance played like a team that was afraid to lose; the Bears played like a team that expected to win. As I said to Pat last night, there's a "been there, done that" attitude that national champions carry with them in tough games, and that attitude was on display last night.

* Everyone's really hard on Andy Wiele today, and, yeah, he really got outworked by a couple of inferior centers last night in Toth and Kelly. But that last memory shouldn't be the one that lingers in everyone's minds. Unfortunately, sometimes a great player goes bust at the very end of his career. For instance, Adam Dauksas had a terrible Final Four to end his career at Illinois Wesleyan. Everyone still remembers him as a great player, however, and Wiele deserves the same courtesy.

* The prime topic of conversation among a lot of non-Wheaton fans in attendance last night (and, no, I did not initiate any of it) was the Bill Harris Retirement Countdown.

* After eleven years of chewing up half of his bandwidth, it was great to finally meet Pat Coleman in the flesh last night!

* Wash U is a better team than St. Thomas, and I think that the Bears will win tonight by eight. However, the difference between the two teams is not so great that the Tommies can't pull off an upset. The Bears have no room whatsoever to be complacent or to ease up in the wake of having defeated Wheaton. I was very, very impressed by the Tommies -- I love the way that they get after it on defense. I'm looking forward to tonight's game.

* I am thoroughly happy to know that he will no longer be a plague upon the rest of the league, but I nevertheless have to tip my cap to Kent Raymond one last time. That kind of player is very, very rare on our level.

* Great crowd, great experience last night!

[Above The Rim]

I agree I don't think Kent Raymond is a complainer to the officials. He definitely talks to them all the time but that doesn't make him a complainer. Unless you hear him complaining to the ref (which he does do) I don't think you can make the statement that he is "harping at the officials". For all you know he is telling them they made a good call. He obviously works hard to establish a rapport with the officials and likely benefits from calls because of it. Doesn't mean he is complaining.

USee--

Gosh. You're saying 2 different things in the same paragraph.
1. "I don't think Kent Raymond is a complainer to the officials."
2. "you hear him complaining to the ref (which he does do)."

After virtually every call against him he goes straight to the official. Without even being able to hear what he is saying, you know he is complaining just by his body language--sweeping his arm outward from in front of his waist (the "clear out" sign), and extending both arms outward with his palms up like "what the heck" are pretty tell tail signs of his intent which certainly as you jokingly (I hope) suggest is NOT to compliment the ref for making a call against him!

[Gregory Sager]

I should also add that I enjoyed Pat's rendition of the National Anthem last night, and I'm looking forward to Bob taking his turn before tonight's game.

[thundermike]

Thundermike,
                     How can you call Andy Wiele a great player? He was lucky to make 2nd all-conference( 3rd team yes) with all the hype about him bulking up and being a stud he disappeared in more than 60 % of the games and the amount of time on the floor he looked winded. He is a good player 3rd team yes,good board man at 6'8 should be.

It's not even worth getting into an argument on this one cardinalfan. Look at the numbers and name a team that wouldn't want to have Andy Wiele.

[usee]

I should have said "he sometimes does". I have heard him complain. In one instance I heard him yell "I disagree Sir!" after a call. Did he do the gestures you suggest after every whisle in the 15 games you saw? Sounds like selective memory to me. Unless you have seen him play more than you have you are not in a position to say whether his rapport with the officials can be considered a "negative aspect" of his game.

[usee]

I should also add that I enjoyed Pat's rendition of the National Anthem last night, and I'm looking forward to Bob taking his turn before tonight's game.

God help us all.

[augiefan]

A couple of more "final" thoughts. I think Wash U. outscoring Wheaton at the start of both halves was critical in keeping the home team in a constant catch up mode. Also, it appeared both teams were as tight as drums in the final few minutes after Wheaton closed it to a one score game. A single elimination tourney tends to do that in close games.

[Titan Q]

I should also add that I enjoyed Pat's rendition of the National Anthem last night, and I'm looking forward to Bob taking his turn before tonight's game.

God help us all.

I have been watching a lot of American Idol lately and I feel like I'm ready.

[CCIWchamps]

Granted Raymond shot 7 of the 15 in the game, but I think he deserved a few more calls going to the hole. 

Are we playing the entitlement card here CCIW?
In MHO, Kent Raymond may very well just be the best DIII player in the country, but the one "negative" aspect of his game has been his constant harping at the officials over virtually every call that has gone against him throughout the course of his fabulous career. It was exceptionally rare when you didn't see Kent complain to the refs after being called for a foul. He did this even in cases when the call against him was so obviously correct that even Coach Harris wouldn't argue the call. Often times, he would even complain about calls that went against teammates. Sure, there were calls that went against him that were ticky-tacky or maybe weren't even fouls at all, but those were more than offset by the offensive fouls he got away with despite constantly leading with his forearm when dribbling/driving the ball.

Other CCIW posters? Agree/Disagree?

CCIW---Is it possible that Wash U "deserved" some calls they didn't get, or was it just Raymond and Wheaton who got shafted by the refs?

I made my argument about 2 specific calls- a non-call and a charge.  I'll leave it at that.  
Kent's great at creating contact in his approach to the hole, making it virtually impossible not to call "on the arm" fouls on his defenders.  As well, he's pretty good at slicing through low post D which results in flailing shots as his legs get clipped.  Those seem to be easier calls to make, though they are actually less often called.  In my opinion, he could've gotten more calls for him that he didn't get.  

As for your "leading with his forearm" argument, I don't agree that he does anything more in this area that you see in any other player.  And that he argues calls he disagrees with isn't even worth discussing.  Until you see him pout, cuss out an official, throw a mouthguard or a headband, or something like laugh at an official to his face- anything that results in a T- I'm fine watching an extremely competitive player talk to an official.  He's going to be an intricate part of each game so he needs to know what's being called and why.  

Are you a Wheaton fan?  I ask because I'm wondering how many games you've seen him to make the statement "throughout the course of his fabulous career."  

CCIW--

I am a basketball fan. I have seen Kent play about 15 games. Don't you think his career has been fabulous?

No, you misunderstood my point.  I am trying to establish the basis of your argument: whether it's on seeing him 2x a year as a fan of an opposing team, or whether it's over the course of 5 years rain or shine.  The "fabulous" is not up for debate.  It's what you were considering a "career" when discussing his "constant harping at the officials over virtually every call."  If I were you I'd defer to the people on the board who have seen him play more than 15 times when making a case about his career. 

[Titan Q]

For anyone interested, there will audio streaming and live stats for of the women's Sectional final in Bloomington, featuring IWU vs Wash U...

http://www.iwusports.com/sports/2009/3/8/WBB_0308093306.aspx?id=89

IWU is 30-0 and trying to get to the school's first women's Final Four.  The Titans are very impressive - they play tremendous defense, really shoot the ball well, and just play very hard for 40 minutes.  A huge game for the IWU women's program. 

[CCIWchamps]

A couple of more "final" thoughts. I think Wash U. outscoring Wheaton at the start of both halves was critical in keeping the home team in a constant catch up mode. Also, it appeared both teams were as tight as drums in the final few minutes after Wheaton closed it to a one score game. A single elimination tourney tends to do that in close games.

True.  That steal to start the second half was an indicator that Wash U was going to keep dictating while they could- not just roll over and let Wheaton stage another improbable second half comeback battle.  Think- without that play (for instance), Wheaton is down 1 at the end and not 3.  In such a see saw in the final 5 minutes, those 2 points are HUGE.  The more I post on here, the more cathartic it is.  I have to say that it was a great game last night. 

[thundermike]

For anyone interested, there will audio streaming and live stats for of the women's Sectional final in Bloomington, featuring IWU vs Wash U...

http://www.iwusports.com/sports/2009/3/8/WBB_0308093306.aspx?id=89

IWU is 30-0 and trying to get to the school's first women's Final Four.  The Titans are very impressive - they play tremendous defense, really shoot the ball well, and just play very hard for 40 minutes.  A huge game for the IWU women's program. 

As the team manager for the Wheaton women's team I saw IWU play live twice and I also watched the webcast of their win over Carthage in the CCIW tourney. IWU is an incredible team and they are doing something very special. They are representing the CCIW very well.

[Scrub023]

Thundermike,
                     How can you call Andy Wiele a great player? He was lucky to make 2nd all-conference( 3rd team yes) with all the hype about him bulking up and being a stud he disappeared in more than 60 % of the games and the amount of time on the floor he looked winded. He is a good player 3rd team yes,good board man at 6'8 should be.

It's not even worth getting into an argument on this one cardinalfan. Look at the numbers and name a team that wouldn't want to have Andy Wiele.

cardinalfanrocelle,

BWAHHHHH!!?? Maybe you meant to say All American instead of Great, because people who don't even watch Wheaton much understand that he is a GREAT player. I'm a Lawrence guy, and If you throw him into that lineup, I highly doubt Lawrence would have lost even 2 games this year, and would have probably been in the top 5 teams in the nation going into this tournament. Very similiar to the once LU player, Alex Brant, who transferred to Loras, but Wiele is probably a more skilled offensive player. He deserved  2nd team at the bare minimum, since I do believe he got hurt this year, and that usually affects players performances throughout the remainder of the season. He isn't the best big on the #3 team in the nation for nothing.